Some here agree and some don't. The ones that don't agree perhaps either haven't seen or experience this. The face is, At USNA there are upperclass Mids who feel they have the duty to "Run out" those they feel should leave. There are numerous reasons associated with why they do what they do. However, it doesn't change the facts. If a MIDN is aware of this as well as a lot of what that isn't reported or spoken about prior to accepting an appointment He/She will be better prepared in addressing the issue and has a greater chance of Graduating and receiving a Commission. As I stated, all MIDN should make many friends and watch your six.
Getting in is the esay part.
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Full Metal Bulldog
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Well this is getting hairy....
To clarify my own position and to kinda-sorta shed some less biased light on what I *believe* SEABEE is getting at, is that a Service Academy, or any institution of higher leaning in general, is not going to be immune to having jerks that go there. It happens, and no selection system will ever be able to fully change that. Someone's going to be an ass. And by an ass, there are those who believe, for whatever reason, someone doesn't belong somewhere. Maybe they're kinda fat or aren't the next Einstein. Or maybe they're a redhead. Some people hate redheads. Happens. But regardless, there are those upperclassmen who get all riled up with the whole "leave my school!!!" and "if I won't do it, who will?" mentality and try to run them out. Sometimes they succeed. Sometimes the Plebe/Knob/Rat/Rook/etc class is particularly close that year and backs their classmate up and helps them out. Sometimes they don't. Different reasons that I'm pretty sure entire social experiments could be or have been conducted on.
99.9% of the time, that upperclassman (or group of underclassmen) is recognized as an immature jackass and is either chastised by his/her own chain of command, or, in the worst cases, kicked out for hazing.
As for the honor code, I've attended countless seminars on honor that preach that the code is meant to instill honor in my school's graduates, and not as a punishment system. But, for the same reasons usually stated above, for some reason people won't like someone (ever heard the phrase "high school never ends"?) and try to get that person caught up in an honor-related scenario. Rarely is someone kicked out, but I've seen folks who's grades and morale have suffered pretty bad from the trial and investigation process.
Is this common? No. But it happens every now and then. It's just high school drama evolved into SA/SMC/College life. And as for the first part about "running out the unworthy", I've known folks on cadre who've done this on purpose as a guise to just get the 4th class to bond and back each other up.
Hope this clarified some things, and as said, my sources are acquaintances and friends at SA's, SMC's, and a few civilian colleges.
Morale of the story: don't piss off your Cadet First Sergeant and Cadre Platoon Leader on Day 00.
To clarify my own position and to kinda-sorta shed some less biased light on what I *believe* SEABEE is getting at, is that a Service Academy, or any institution of higher leaning in general, is not going to be immune to having jerks that go there. It happens, and no selection system will ever be able to fully change that. Someone's going to be an ass. And by an ass, there are those who believe, for whatever reason, someone doesn't belong somewhere. Maybe they're kinda fat or aren't the next Einstein. Or maybe they're a redhead. Some people hate redheads. Happens. But regardless, there are those upperclassmen who get all riled up with the whole "leave my school!!!" and "if I won't do it, who will?" mentality and try to run them out. Sometimes they succeed. Sometimes the Plebe/Knob/Rat/Rook/etc class is particularly close that year and backs their classmate up and helps them out. Sometimes they don't. Different reasons that I'm pretty sure entire social experiments could be or have been conducted on.
99.9% of the time, that upperclassman (or group of underclassmen) is recognized as an immature jackass and is either chastised by his/her own chain of command, or, in the worst cases, kicked out for hazing.
As for the honor code, I've attended countless seminars on honor that preach that the code is meant to instill honor in my school's graduates, and not as a punishment system. But, for the same reasons usually stated above, for some reason people won't like someone (ever heard the phrase "high school never ends"?) and try to get that person caught up in an honor-related scenario. Rarely is someone kicked out, but I've seen folks who's grades and morale have suffered pretty bad from the trial and investigation process.
Is this common? No. But it happens every now and then. It's just high school drama evolved into SA/SMC/College life. And as for the first part about "running out the unworthy", I've known folks on cadre who've done this on purpose as a guise to just get the 4th class to bond and back each other up.
Hope this clarified some things, and as said, my sources are acquaintances and friends at SA's, SMC's, and a few civilian colleges.
Morale of the story: don't piss off your Cadet First Sergeant and Cadre Platoon Leader on Day 00.
One can believe whatever they want, even those who are ignorant. Hope that enlightens a little.
Agreed with most of your post. Moral here is know what you are getting into, why you are there and then watch your six.
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So, what you are saying is that a MIDN would deliberately lie to put another MIDN up for an honor offense just because they didn't like each other? Talk about the irony there. I find it hard to imagine that a MIDN would put their credibility on the line for something outrageous like that. The Honor Board is convened for a reason and what I have found is that when there is a lack of evidence the board is not going to find guilt. Also, it will quickly become apparent to the Company Officer and Senior Enlisted Leader when there is an issue or the MIDN is a "problem child" and they will likely try to find out what is exactly going on.
I personally think this is a bit overboard. Do MIDN try to push other MIDN out of USNA? Of course, yes. However, 99.9% of the time it is justified -- either that MIDN gave up, is constantly under-performing and NOT trying after being helped multiple times, or has significant conduct/honor problems. I haven't seen a MIDN try to separate on the sole purpose because they were not liked. There were many people in our company who were not liked (as a consensus), yet they still graduated and weren't drawn up on honor or conduct charges. There were folks that shouldn't have graduated that did! There were also folks who, because of their performance and lack of motivation, were eventually separated for good reason. In the real military, Commanding Officers have an extreme amount of authority -- from awarding NJP, Administrative Separation processing, to Detaching Officers for Cause -- all of which could be initiated at the snap of fingers and with the possibility of it being based on the CO not liking the officer but finding another "excuse" to push them out. A friend of mine never got his warfare qualification because the CO didn't like him -- fair or unfair -- that is what happened and cost him his Naval career. It isn't as if this problem goes away.
There are avenues (i.e. IG) for those who feel they wrongfully had adverse action taken against them and I am pretty sure there is something at USNA to account for this. Overall, I feel this problem is far and few between and it is very risky for an individual to falsely accuse or over-exaggerate a claim with nothing to back it up because it will come back to bite them.
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I disagree, but I am not saying that MIDN need to go "looking" to push one-another out. MIDN are a part of the chain of command and if other MIDN cannot consistently meet the basic performance/conduct standards or lack motivation, then that needs to be brought up to the chain of command and dealt with appropriately, which might include a recommendation for a performance board or separation. MIDN live with each other 24/7 and generally have a much better idea what is happening in the halls than any of the officers in the chain of command. Non-voluntary separations require Superintendent action, so there is appropriate oversight. Attending USNA, in of itself, shouldn't guarantee graduation and commissioning -- it needs to be earned -- by meeting or exceeding the standards.
Cynicism is up to (and controlled by) each individual. Better learn early to deal with it, because it doesn't get any easier in the real military. There WILL ALWAYS be leaders who drive others crazy/cynical.
From your statements here, you believe it is the job and duty for one MIDN to determine if another MIDN should be at USNA and in one form or another work to push the MIDN out. This is exactly what I have been saying here.
It is not a MIDN job or duty to push another MIDN out of USNA period nor should it be. Also the practice of one MIDN "practicing" their Leadership skills on another MIDN comes with negative effects. It contributes to many MIDN becoming cynical at the USNA. Additionally, My response to your claim, just you haven't seen a MIDN try to separate another MIDN on the sole purpose they were not liked comes with this caveat. There are many sole reasons one isn't liked, such as, jealousy over sports, relationships, academics, being a better leader, good looking, bad looking, fat etc, etc. Just because you haven't seen something does not in any way justify claiming it doesn't happen. Again, it is NOT a MIDN job or duty to determine if a MIDN should remain at USNA.
That is the Active Duty Command at the USNA, not the MIDN. Yet it is people like your self that believe it is the MIDN job and or duty and this won't change until it is acknowledged and addressed appropriately.
BTW Voluntary Resignations require the Superintendent action as well.
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While I have no personal experience with USNA, I will say I have to agree with usnsbgo08 about his views.
While Mids are not the deciding authority, they are part of the CoC and it is their job to make recommendations and provide input to the cadre that otherwise might not see it. Do some abuse their power, probably , but that is life and will not change wherever you go. Additionally, the mids do have supervision and this abuse of power is checked by the active duty cadre.
Also, if someone voluntarily resigns because they are not liked for one or numerous reasons, it does not seem to me that they should be becoming an officer in the first place.
As for the practicing of leadership causing cynicism, practice is the whole point of any commissioning program. Many mids/cadets believe that their upperclassmen are lacking in some aspect of leadership, but what 18-20 year old who is being groomed to be a leader doesn't think that they are better and more intelligent with better solutions. They will eventually face the same problems, and will solve them similarly once they realize that that they did not have all the information about the situation while they were judging the upperclassmen.
While Mids are not the deciding authority, they are part of the CoC and it is their job to make recommendations and provide input to the cadre that otherwise might not see it. Do some abuse their power, probably , but that is life and will not change wherever you go. Additionally, the mids do have supervision and this abuse of power is checked by the active duty cadre.
Also, if someone voluntarily resigns because they are not liked for one or numerous reasons, it does not seem to me that they should be becoming an officer in the first place.
As for the practicing of leadership causing cynicism, practice is the whole point of any commissioning program. Many mids/cadets believe that their upperclassmen are lacking in some aspect of leadership, but what 18-20 year old who is being groomed to be a leader doesn't think that they are better and more intelligent with better solutions. They will eventually face the same problems, and will solve them similarly once they realize that that they did not have all the information about the situation while they were judging the upperclassmen.
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Anyone who has an IQ above 50 can see the real problems with giving powers to untrained persons who have real police power over their peers in an isolated environment. Being groomed is exactly the point, meaning they are not there yet. They are practicing Leadership skills or the lack thereof on their peers. Most MIDS are honorable young Men and Women but not all and the number is growing. Good MIDS suffer greatly because of the ones that shouldn't be there and by the time they are identified and dealt with the harm has already been done, to late for some. Many MIDS voluntary resign due to their unwillingness to allow the undeserving MIDS the ability to continue to work to destroy their future career. Practicing Leadership should only be given to those that have been properly trained and have demonstrated they deserve the Honor.
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When would you have MIDN "practice" leadership if not at USNA? The entire point of USNA is for MIDN to practice leadership. Not just the top 10% or people who are natrual leaders, but everyone, because everyone will sooner or later have to step up and be a leader in the fleet.
Some of my classmates were DivOs in charge of ~30+ people less than a month after graduation. When would you have them learn what it's like to have resonsibility, or that their actions have consequences?
I would much rather have mids make mistakes at USNA, even if it possibly negatively effects other MIDN, (who have time to bounce back and will essentially get a do-over the next semester) then make those same mistakes in the fleet where it has real consequences on the lives and careers of Sailors and Marines.
Something about all of this doesn't sound right.
Is it possible SEEBEE is also Aquarain?
They both post about similar negative experiences while at the Academy and both OP's seem intent on shedding light on the ugly side of life at the Academy. I don't know, but I sense they are one and the same. Aquarain did revel in her creative writing abilities. Just saying.
Is it possible SEEBEE is also Aquarain?
They both post about similar negative experiences while at the Academy and both OP's seem intent on shedding light on the ugly side of life at the Academy. I don't know, but I sense they are one and the same. Aquarain did revel in her creative writing abilities. Just saying.
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SEABEE, a handful of alumni haven't seen the situation you have described. Might it happen? Possibly, but you are talking about the extremely small exception and NOT the norm. Rhetorically, I'd be interested in hearing a specific instance where this did happen vs. a generalization -- especially what actions everyone took or didn't take -- because right now, assuming there was an instance, no one has first-hand knowledge of EXACTLY what happened (hearsay).
Well said, ahs67. Looking at SEEBEE's November posts, there does seem to be a similarity to Aquarain's situation and posts.
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I totally agree. I would also point out that the same thing happens in the corporate world and everywhere else for that matter. No one steps on the stage or even a new job with all the leadership skills they require. They pick them up along the way. It's also possible for others to be impacted by this learning process, but that's the way the world works.
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Is it safe to say something happened or IS happening to a friend of family member of the OP? I think so.
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I don't think that's accurate or fair. I disagree with the OP's (and aquarain's) perspective on USNA because I don't think those experiences are typical of most mids.
Everybody experiences and sees the less savory aspect of life at a service academy, and prospective mids should be aware that they exist, though I'd caution that anyone who thinks a SA (or military life in general) is as perfect as admissions makes it seem is an idiot.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I find these threads alarmist and kind of annoying, but that doesn't mean that the authors have poor intentions or an underhanded motive.
I agree with much of your post. However, I do think most here agree there are real problems and severe consequences of putting untrained MIDN in positions of real police powers. I think training before rating might help.
also let's not fool ourselves here. USNA does not restrict appointments to the top 10%
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I think you need to educate yourself on what "police powers" actually are.
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