Grad School after ADSO

Kierkegaard

Kierkegaard

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Looking to hear people’s perspectives on attending grad school after completing the active service obligation incurred after graduating from a service academy. I was not one of those lucky enough to be selected for one of the immediate grad school programs. And I also do not plan on getting my masters while still in the military, because I want to have complete flexibility as to what and where I study.

Any advice on leveraging military experience to make a compelling case to admissions committees? Do they take into account the rigors and difficulties of studying at a service academy and consider that when say, examining GPA/QPR?

GI Bill, Yellow Ribbon, etc. — After completing the 5 year ADSO, is it worth staying in for 8 years to get the full GI bill and to be eligible for Yellow Ribbon?

What types of programs are a good fit for transitioning officers? Law school, STEM fields, Business school, others?

Thanks!
 
A lot of the top law schools highly value veteran status in admissions. They do still care about GPA, however, but there might be some more leeway as a veteran or active duty service member in terms of getting admitted. There’s also the LSAT for them, and you can study up on that for a good score. Both GPA and LSAT scores for the student body at a law school go into the USNWR rankings… so some law schools try and go for those by admitting students with higher GPAs and LSAT scores. The good news is recently, we have seen some of the very top law schools, like Yale (the #1), pull out of the USNWR rankings because of that. This has allowed those schools to admit more students that may not have the highest GPA/LSAT stats, but they have unique life experiences instead to bring to the school.

Another note for law school, only go if you want to be a lawyer! It’s expensive, hard, and takes 3 years. If you just want a degree but don’t want to actually be a lawyer, you’re probably better off looking into another program. Those 3 years are going to be very very long if you don’t want to actually join the legal community
 
Different opinions on this one. I have seen plenty of classmates follow multiple paths. I would recommend following sitrepstosteercos on IG, run by a USMA grad. Lots of great info. But he is all on in an MBA right after service. That is just one view. He had tons of info about different paths, applying to grad school, etc. I did not do this path, but many of my friends did. Versatility, an MBA could be a great path. I would say if you could do 8 years, to get the GI Bill is a solid path. It is worth a good chunk of money especially if you want to attend law school or do a full time MBA. It’s a great option if you really aren’t sure what you want to do. I did a Masters while still in. I have added a few others certs and degrees since then, work paid for a good chunk of it.
 
Much to respond to - may circle back later - here’s something fun to start with:

I was not surprised by many of the schools on there. Vets who bring full tuition from the GI Bill and can draw on the Yellow Ribbon Fund if needed are attractive to universities. They are more likely to complete the course, and do it well, and are mature, disciplined and organized students.

If you stay the ADSO + 36 months needed for 100% of your benefit, you might get to go to a school you could never have otherwise afforded. Remember you can do less than 36 months and get a pro-rated amount.

In our USNA alumni sponsor mid family, we have had alumni go to:
Stanford B School
UMD B School
Syracuse B School
Duke B School
ODU Engineering Management
Georgetown Foreign Service School
Harvard Kennedy School of Govt
Vanderbilt B School
GWU, can’t recall exactly, international security affairs, I think
UMichigan medical school
UPenn vet school
UF Engineering
Some others might come back to me

Also consider if you want to be a full-time student, in which case that GI Bill living allowance comes in very handy, or do an “executive MBA” type of course, designed for working people. You go to school after hours or on weekends, or do it remotely, or hybrid.

And, there is a complete world of quality certificate courses out there, which can also be funded by GI Bill. These also come in both full-time student and fully remote versions and are offered by top schools. You know I write resumes and coach retiring FOGO officers as a contractor; I just finished one for an officer who has a job to go to, but he’s enrolled in a remote certificate program with Wharton B School for board compliance and governance, because he wants to eventually get board of directors work. Another one enrolled in a GWU B school remote certificate course on Business Analytics, because he knew he was weak on that area of corporate executive expertise, and his slightly dusty M.S. from the Army War College in Strategic Studies would not be helpful. Another of these clients enrolled in Johns Hopkins B school for the exec cert in non-profit management. Spouse of the sponsor mid alumni who went to Georgetown, also a USNA grad, used his GI Bill money to pay for a certificate in cyber studies, remote.

You can also go right to work after your ADSO for a company that offers graduate education assistance as a benefit. That would be remote or after-hours.

I think most university admissions recognize the rigor of a service academy, especially if you received a B.S. with a non-STEM major.

If there is a standardized test required, then you do a tutoring or prep course and crush it.

There are wonderful programs like this. Vanderbilt is a leader in veteran-friendly initiatives, just as an example.
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Vanderbilt recognizes the leadership qualities and capabilities of veterans. The Bass Military Scholars Program launched in 2018 award scholarships annually to highly talented veterans pursuing graduate and professional degrees across five Vanderbilt schools.
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Vanderbilt's top-ranked MBA program helps you achieve your career goals. Ask our military-dedicated financial aid officer about the Yellow Ribbon program.
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There are many universities who attend the Service Academy Career Conference (SACC).

I have some resources for you. Because of the GI Bill, colleges and universities these days, even community colleges, have someone in admissions, bursar’s office or other staff who is usually a veteran and who leads the university’s veteran relations program, though there can be many names. You can call these people and ask to pick their brains. They are in this field to help veterans. You can ask them the Admissions-related questions.

Frank G is a USNA grad. UMD B School.
www.linkedin.com

Frank Goertner - University of Maryland - Robert H. Smith School of Business | LinkedIn

Working to make the business of national security everyone’s business. · Experience: University of Maryland - Robert H. Smith School of Business · Education: United States Naval Academy · Location: Washington DC-Baltimore Area · 500+ connections on LinkedIn. View Frank Goertner’s profile on...
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Scott B is an Army vet and Navy NPS grad, director of Vanderbilt Military Scholars.

I am a strong supporter of doing the years required after ADSO to earn the full GI Bill benefit, because it provides enormous flexibility for the rest of your life in how it can be used. And I hate leaving money on the table. But - I can see being strategic, and earning part of it, or just finding options without it. Note the Vanderbilt Military Scholars program and my comments about finding a company that offers educational assistance as a benefit.
 
And I would be remiss if I didn’t mention an alumni sponsor mid helo pilot who somehow got Tuition Assistance approved for a M.S. remote for Fire Science at Colorado School of Mines. Now out and doing what they love, but as an aerial firefighting chopper pilot, keeping busy in the West. The TA payback time ran concurrently with SA and flight school ADSO. I don’t think they got the GI Bill, but they were all set. No surprise to us about this member of the sponsor family. Was a remote ranch kid with a PPL, flew crop-dusters, had whatever you call the highest kayak rating for the toughest rapids, spent USNA leave periods hiking remote trails or kayaking new rapids.
 
Study for and take the GRE/GMAT, even if the schools you're looking at right now don't strictly require it. Good to have those scores in your pocket. Use the free resources you can grab from DoD Overdrive, no need to pay for study material.

Do the math on the money you'll get at 5 years vs. the full 8 years next to the location you'd like to relocate to: Trying to go to UCLA? NYU? Pretty pricey just to live in some places, there's a limit to how far the GI bill will go for both tuition and housing. If you leave right at 5, you cut that amount in half (or whatever the precentage is right now, hit up VA for the actual numbers). In some places staying the 3 years will be the difference between being able to sustain yourself on the GI bill alone for those two years and living with two roomates and working a part-time through school. Or maybe it will mean the difference between the private school you really want and the in-state tuition school you can afford.

Weigh that against those last three years of service. If you're a SWO, it'll be shore duty somewhere, and a much nicer time than you've probably had so far. Work at ATG as a TLO--answer emails, whip up Excel spreadsheets, and push PowerPoints. Work at MSTC as an instructor and set up ship simulators. Not exciting work, but nothing difficult, and you build a better safety net with 3 additional years of a stable salary alongside the full GI bill eligibility. Much easier to get Skillbridge on shore duty--spend that last few months in the service knocking out a nice internship and start building a network in your desired field. It's not a terrible option--just stay away from DHRB.

Things to remember: If you get out before 8, you are required to accept a reserve commission (but IRR is basically nothing). If you leave at 5 and your commissioning date is after Oct 1. 2020, you will need to be a drilling reservist (but non-deployable) for that one extra year.

Unrelated, but consider selected reserves in general. Pretty neat to be able to hop back in for some quick AD time when the private sector gets to be a drag.
 
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All excellent and informed posts, to which I can not add much, only the perspective and thought process on my AROTC DS, who commissioned 8 years ago and is separating in Feb 2025. I have been a sounding board for his exhaustive decision making process ever since he began contemplating branch assignments. He has always taken a very selfish approach regarding his career. "What's in it for me?" Most important, he asks for the moon and he often times gets it, resulting in a heightened need to perform.

He took a BRADSO in order to better his chances of getting the branch assignment he wanted. He always said, "I will stay in until it's no longer interesting". He has created and grabbed opportunities that made his time worthwhile with a definite promotion to O-4 at the end of the rainbow. During those last three years, he gained more command freedom and experience, thereby enhancing his resume and more important, his marketable skill set, within the context of Military/Gov't Service or the private sector. This is certainly something to consider in your own situation. If you stay in for the extra three years, don't just punch a clock. Make it count. He has been around long enough to know the life of an O-4 and he wants no part of it.

He has witnessed a steady stream of USMA O-3's with eight years entering very prestigious graduate programs. And like @Capt MJ he is not one to leave a penny on the table. He studied for and took the GRE and could probably matriculate any program he sought, but he is asking the legitimate question of what is the purpose of spending the time and effort of an advanced degree. Is it to gain a credential? Is it to broaden a skill set, like adding finance to an Engineering BS? Is it to start building a network? Is it to start an entirely new career? He will soon begin an internship. He has never called it Skillbridge, but that is what it sounds like. He will apply to several graduate programs. He has been in a cloistered world, but with a lot of contract with contractors who have their own agendas. He believes that the internship will give him a chance to see how the world operates and that the correct career decision going forward will avail itself.

Wish you the best of luck!
 
Kierkegaard said:
What types of programs are a good fit for transitioning officers? Law school, STEM fields, Business school, others?
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You've received a lot of great advice above. Suffice it to say, you'll have many great options, and that your SA and AD experience will count for a lot with admissions committees (and hiring companies).

You're wise to be thinking ahead. You're also wise to let things unfold and be open to revelations. The best graduate program is the one that will help you achieve your long-term goals. Sometimes that's no graduate degree at all. Grad degrees cost a lot of money and time, so make sure whatever you earn will actually advance you significantly toward your goal.

For example, as someone who has an MBA and has hired many MBAs, I know that all MBAs are not created equal or equally worth the investment. Want to become a management consultant or a brand manager or an investment banker? Where you go matters. Want to practice law with a white-shoe firm? Where you go matters. Want any less than that from your MBA or JD? Then where you go matters less. And again, you don't need a grad degree to do most high-level, well-paying jobs, life-fulfilling jobs.

The nice thing is, you have time to figure all this out and to learn from those who've gone before you. Be driven, but be open as well.
 
cb7893 said:
He has always taken a very selfish approach regarding his career. "What's in it for me?" Most important, he asks for the moon and he often times gets it, resulting in a heightened need to perform.
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Wanted to emphasize this. Never feel bad for the Navy or for your command. The Navy has survived for 249 years and will continue to survive without you in it. Your command will move on and it'll be like you were never there in weeks to months.

The Navy will act in its own selfish best interest (the classic "Needs of the Navy"); feel no shame in doing the same in return.

Let XO worry about officer manning, your billet, your relief, who's gonna take on your collaterals as wardroom treasurer/MWR President, etc. Apply for Skillbridge, LDEP, fellowship, that rip-to-fill aide billet, volunteer for the IA assignment in Africa, whatever you wanna do, without that weight on your shoulders.
 
nuensis said:
Study for and take the GRE/GMAT, even if the schools you're looking at right now don't strictly require it. Good to have those scores in your pocket. Use the free resources you can grab from DoD Overdrive, no need to pay for study material.

Do the math on the money you'll get at 5 years vs. the full 8 years next to the location you'd like to relocate to: Trying to go to UCLA? NYU? Pretty pricey just to live in some places, there's a limit to how far the GI bill will go for both tuition and housing. If you leave right at 5, you cut that amount in half (or whatever the precentage is right now, hit up VA for the actual numbers). In some places staying the 3 years will be the difference between being able to sustain yourself on the GI bill alone for those two years and living with two roomates and working a part-time through school. Or maybe it will mean the difference between the private school you really want and the in-state tuition school you can afford.

Weigh that against those last three years of service. If you're a SWO, it'll be shore duty somewhere, and a much nicer time than you've probably had so far. Work at ATG as a TLO--answer emails, whip up Excel spreadsheets, and push PowerPoints. Work at MSTC as an instructor and set up ship simulators. Not exciting work, but nothing difficult, and you build a better safety net with 3 additional years of a stable salary alongside the full GI bill eligibility. Much easier to get Skillbridge on shore duty--spend that last few months in the service knocking out a nice internship and start building a network in your desired field. It's not a terrible option--just stay away from DHRB.

Things to remember: If you get out before 8, you are required to accept a reserve commission (but IRR is basically nothing). If you leave at 5 and your commissioning date is after Oct 1. 2020, you will need to be a drilling reservist (but non-deployable) for that one extra year.

Unrelated, but consider selected reserves in general. Pretty neat to be able to hop back in for some quick AD time when the private sector gets to be a drag.
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Great last point on the Reserves (all points were excellent). USNA sponsor fam SELRES stories:
- works at Microsoft but came back in on a year’s Reserve AT to teach cyber at USNA, then back to MS
- worked at a major financial firm in NYC, lost their job when firm was acquired, leaped on an opportunity to do a year in Bahrain, finished remote MBA, re-launched career upon return, continues to rise in USNR ranks
- pilot for major airline, got furloughed during COVID, went full-time Reserve again, then back to major airline
 
Appreciate all these thoughtful responses! This is great information for myself and other members who may have similar questions.
 
For the top Business Schools, your undergraduate GPA won't matter as much and your work experience/GMAT score will matter significantly more. The reason being, for MBA programs, you are placed in a "bucket" of applicants, and the "bucket" you are competing against for admissions will be other veterans. (Likewise former consultants are competing against former consultants, former I-Bankers are competing against former I-Bankers). That said, as a Service Academy grad, your chances of gaining admission to a top MBA program are high. This information is a bit old, but a few years ago Service Academy grads using Service2School's services (which is free) had a greater than 50% chance of gaining admission to an M7 (Harvard, Stanford, Wharton (Penn), Booth (Chicago), Kellogg (Northwestern), Sloan (MIT) and Columbia), and all but one applicant was admitted to a T16 (other top schools like Fuqua (Duke), Tuck (Dartmouth), Yale, Darden (UVA), etc.). https://www.service2school.org/blog/what-are-my-odds-applying-to-the-top-mba-programs. You should have some idea of what field you want to go into prior to applying, but constulting and investment banking are pretty popular choices among veterans. Business Schools also have "rounds" of applications as opposed to rolling admissions, so you will want to make sure you get your application in either Round 1 or Round 2 to give yourself the best chance.

Law school is completely different, and unfortunately admissions really aren't going to care too much that you got a degree from a service academy if your undergrad GPA wasn't great. Greater than 90% of your admissions chances are going to be based on your undergraduate GPA and LSAT score, and law schools will gladly take a 3.9+ humanities major from State School U that grade inflates over a 3.0 engineering major from a Service Academy. Legal salaries are for the most part bimodal for entry level attorneys, meaning some jobs pay very high (1st year associates at big law firms now start out making $215k annually) and others pay much lower (around $60k or so). There are some entry level jobs between those extremes (like midsize law firms in smaller cities) but they have much fewer positions. If you decide you want to attend law school (and as Ivy22 said only go to law school if you actually want to be a lawyer) you should really target gaining admission to a T-14 as (for the most part) they are the only schools that give you a better than 50/50 shot of landing what are considered the most valuable legal jobs (big law and federal clerkships) and have portability nationally. They also have programs where if you go into public service, they will pay your student loans for you for up to 10 years as you work toward Public Service Loan Forgiveness (assuming it is still around in the future). Otherwise, go to the best school you can in the State you want to practice in for as cheap as possible. That said, I would not even recommend going to a T-14 paying full freight. The key is balancing likely outcomes with your out-of-pocket cost of attendance. I had a friend turn down a full ride to Duke Law to go pay full freight at Harvard Law. Yeah, its cool they have a Harvard degree, but they landed the exact same job (generic big law) that they would have out of Duke, just with $300k+ in student loan debt. It was an objectively poor financial decision.

Anecdotally, I went through the application process for both. I barely had above a 3.0 at USAFA but studied hard for both the LSAT and GMAT. I personally found the LSAT harder but scored around the 97-98th percentile nationally for both. I only applied to 3 Business Schools and was accepted to 2, one of HSW and one other T16. As far as law schools, I applied to every single T-14 (except Yale) and was only accepted to 3, and 2 of those were off the wait list. Luckily, one of those was a public school and with 60% of the GI Bill, my out-of-pocket costs were significantly decreased. I was somehow able to get them to give me a scholarship to cover a large portion of my remaining tuition, and I went that route instead of B school.

I don't regret my decision to attend law school, but I will reiterate that you actually have to want to desire to be a lawyer if you go that route. A JD is not as flexible as an MBA, so the exit opportunities are somewhat more limited. That said, I do have a few friends from my law school who ended up accepting jobs outside of the legal field straight from law school, including a few who wound up doing consulting, including at McKinsey, but the path is just more difficult with a JD than an MBA. Also, although law schools won't care as much about your service academy and military background, employers absolutely will. Every veteran in my law school class (even those well below median in the class rankings) ended up getting a job they wanted in the city they wanted.
 
JaxFalcon said:
For the top Business Schools, your undergraduate GPA won't matter as much and your work experience/GMAT score will matter significantly more. The reason being, for MBA programs, you are placed in a "bucket" of applicants, and the "bucket" you are competing against for admissions will be other veterans. (Likewise former consultants are competing against former consultants, former I-Bankers are competing against former I-Bankers). That said, as a Service Academy grad, your chances of gaining admission to a top MBA program are high. This information is a bit old, but a few years ago Service Academy grads using Service2School's services (which is free) had a greater than 50% chance of gaining admission to an M7 (Harvard, Stanford, Wharton (Penn), Booth (Chicago), Kellogg (Northwestern), Sloan (MIT) and Columbia), and all but one applicant was admitted to a T16 (other top schools like Fuqua (Duke), Tuck (Dartmouth), Yale, Darden (UVA), etc.). https://www.service2school.org/blog/what-are-my-odds-applying-to-the-top-mba-programs. You should have some idea of what field you want to go into prior to applying, but constulting and investment banking are pretty popular choices among veterans. Business Schools also have "rounds" of applications as opposed to rolling admissions, so you will want to make sure you get your application in either Round 1 or Round 2 to give yourself the best chance.

Law school is completely different, and unfortunately admissions really aren't going to care too much that you got a degree from a service academy if your undergrad GPA wasn't great. Greater than 90% of your admissions chances are going to be based on your undergraduate GPA and LSAT score, and law schools will gladly take a 3.9+ humanities major from State School U that grade inflates over a 3.0 engineering major from a Service Academy. Legal salaries are for the most part bimodal for entry level attorneys, meaning some jobs pay very high (1st year associates at big law firms now start out making $215k annually) and others pay much lower (around $60k or so). There are some entry level jobs between those extremes (like midsize law firms in smaller cities) but they have much fewer positions. If you decide you want to attend law school (and as Ivy22 said only go to law school if you actually want to be a lawyer) you should really target gaining admission to a T-14 as (for the most part) they are the only schools that give you a better than 50/50 shot of landing what are considered the most valuable legal jobs (big law and federal clerkships) and have portability nationally. They also have programs where if you go into public service, they will pay your student loans for you for up to 10 years as you work toward Public Service Loan Forgiveness (assuming it is still around in the future). Otherwise, go to the best school you can in the State you want to practice in for as cheap as possible. That said, I would not even recommend going to a T-14 paying full freight. The key is balancing likely outcomes with your out-of-pocket cost of attendance. I had a friend turn down a full ride to Duke Law to go pay full freight at Harvard Law. Yeah, its cool they have a Harvard degree, but they landed the exact same job (generic big law) that they would have out of Duke, just with $300k+ in student loan debt. It was an objectively poor financial decision.

Anecdotally, I went through the application process for both. I barely had above a 3.0 at USAFA but studied hard for both the LSAT and GMAT. I personally found the LSAT harder but scored around the 97-98th percentile nationally for both. I only applied to 3 Business Schools and was accepted to 2, one of HSW and one other T16. As far as law schools, I applied to every single T-14 (except Yale) and was only accepted to 3, and 2 of those were off the wait list. Luckily, one of those was a public school and with 60% of the GI Bill, my out-of-pocket costs were significantly decreased. I was somehow able to get them to give me a scholarship to cover a large portion of my remaining tuition, and I went that route instead of B school.

I don't regret my decision to attend law school, but I will reiterate that you actually have to want to desire to be a lawyer if you go that route. A JD is not as flexible as an MBA, so the exit opportunities are somewhat more limited. That said, I do have a few friends from my law school who ended up accepting jobs outside of the legal field straight from law school, including a few who wound up doing consulting, including at McKinsey, but the path is just more difficult with a JD than an MBA. Also, although law schools won't care as much about your service academy and military background, employers absolutely will. Every veteran in my law school class (even those well below median in the class rankings) ended up getting a job they wanted in the city they wanted.
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Excellent info, thanks for sharing JaxFalcon!
 
cb7893 said:
All excellent and informed posts, to which I can not add much, only the perspective and thought process on my AROTC DS, who commissioned 8 years ago and is separating in Feb 2025. I have been a sounding board for his exhaustive decision making process ever since he began contemplating branch assignments. He has always taken a very selfish approach regarding his career. "What's in it for me?" Most important, he asks for the moon and he often times gets it, resulting in a heightened need to perform.

He took a BRADSO in order to better his chances of getting the branch assignment he wanted. He always said, "I will stay in until it's no longer interesting". He has created and grabbed opportunities that made his time worthwhile with a definite promotion to O-4 at the end of the rainbow. During those last three years, he gained more command freedom and experience, thereby enhancing his resume and more important, his marketable skill set, within the context of Military/Gov't Service or the private sector. This is certainly something to consider in your own situation. If you stay in for the extra three years, don't just punch a clock. Make it count. He has been around long enough to know the life of an O-4 and he wants no part of it.

He has witnessed a steady stream of USMA O-3's with eight years entering very prestigious graduate programs. And like @Capt MJ he is not one to leave a penny on the table. He studied for and took the GRE and could probably matriculate any program he sought, but he is asking the legitimate question of what is the purpose of spending the time and effort of an advanced degree. Is it to gain a credential? Is it to broaden a skill set, like adding finance to an Engineering BS? Is it to start building a network? Is it to start an entirely new career? He will soon begin an internship. He has never called it Skillbridge, but that is what it sounds like. He will apply to several graduate programs. He has been in a cloistered world, but with a lot of contract with contractors who have their own agendas. He believes that the internship will give him a chance to see how the world operates and that the correct career decision going forward will avail itself.

Wish you the best of luck!
Click to expand...
Just returned home from a weeklong extended family visit. DS missed most of it as he spent the week at the company where he will serve his internship. I had always assumed he would go to graduate school, which is still a possibility. I have long advocated for the grad school route to compliment his STEM educational background and his technical skills developed in the Army, but something other than an MBA. Rather he should focus on a particular discipline within the MBA basket, like finance. Overtime, his interest migrated from Booth (U Chi) to some incomprehensible financial engineering degree at Sloan (MIT) to The Lauder Institute (Penn/Wharton) for a joint MA/MBA. I thought the latter was perfect for him, but overtime he has become cooler and cooler to the idea of grad school. I think it's mostly because he's anxious to get on with his life. He says the environment for hiring MBA's has changed.

As I said, he is among SF O-3's--many from WP, which he is not--who have been in a pipeline of USMA, Infantry, Ranger School, SF, Team time, prestigious MBA, pot of gold. The landscape has not changed at the top. The best still want to hire the best, but the job offers for the rest are not what they once were. Time will tell if this is a temporary phenomenon or a general devaluing of the the MBA degree itself. His internship is at a company which looks for young veterans. I'm sure that there are companies that would prefer the young veteran MBA in the same way, but the general market for all grads is softer.

I think the bottom line is to not try and "outsmart" or "time" the market. Just be prepared to pour your heart and soul into whatever you choose.
Choose what you are willing to pour your heart and soul into and the rest will work out.
 
It's totally worth it. My Academy class at USCGA was the last one to be able to earn 100% of our Post 9/11 GI Bill merely by completing our 5 years of ADSO. I entered in June 2010, and Congress enacted a new bill that would require those who obligated to the USCGA after January 2011 to serve the 5 year ADSO prior to accruing GI Bill benefit time. Sometimes it pays to be the forgotten service ;)

For me - I am just about to start using my Post 9/11 for a part-time MBA at a private university (full rate of pursuit for MHA purposes) after 5 years of experience as a cybersecurity expert. The YRP will pick up the rest of the tuition. I estimate the value I'll receive is easily around 150-200K when factoring in tuition, fees, and the MHA. And I'll still have a remainder balance on my benefit.

I got out in 2019 and was a traveling consultant for two and half years. Fully remote now and this is a good time in my life to go back. I'm looking forward to learning more business processes, and to take advantage of resources to start my own company. Financially, it doesn't make sense to go back full time when I am well above starting salaries for post-MBA jobs.

Even if you don't go back to school right after transitioning off active duty it's still useful for say an EMBA.

I've had classmates go on to earn their MBA, MD, JD, PsyD, niche masters, etc. with the P911. It's a significant benefit that will increase your network and pivot your skills in an entirely new direction. I wouldn't be able to go to the school that I will be attending if I didn't have it.
 
My son had no thought of graduate school as an undergrad. But he worked diligently to maintain a high GPA because he wanted to be certain of getting an active duty Infantry slot. (I haven't kept up, and it may be that a GPA doesn't matter as much nowadays in the formula as it once did). As he learned later on, top tier law school favor applications from officers with high GPAs and LSATs. It appears also that law firms, including so-called "big law", are attracted to veterans from these schools.

If you are thinking about law school (or B-school), the economic benefits from serving an additional three years after the required ROTC scholarship four or SA five can be substantial. The GI Bill and Yellow Ribbon programs plus the housing allowance can be worth well over $100,000 annually in after tax (i.e., non-taxable) dollars. You can't beat that with a stick.
 
IMHO, there are two types of advanced degrees -- those that "check the box" and those that give you a skill that you can/will use in future work. This, BTW, is also true of degrees earned while IN the military.

If you plan to go the "check the box" route (getting a Master's so you can say you have one), you find the cheapest, quickest and easiest program that has any cred. Period. For some jobs, that's all you need. For other jobs, you may not even need an advanced degree. I have two relatives who have been SUPER successful with "only" a college degree -- one from an Ivy League school and another from a very average (in terms of reputation) state school.

If you want a degree that will help you in a future job, you need to consider what you actually want to do. As CAPT MJ says, SA grads go on to all sorts of graduate programs -- medicine, law, business, engineering, art history, religion, etc. It doesn't make sense to spend a lot of time and money to get a degree that you won't actually put to use (see comment above if you want to do that).

One thing I did was to take a "interest inventory" test. I thought I wanted to be an MD. I took the tests (there were two). When they gave me the results, they said: There are two things that you seem to like and are good at: the military and the law. Well, been there and done that for one. So, started exploring the other.

The next consideration is whether you go to school FT or PT. There are PT programs for almost everything except (I suspect) med school. The advantage to FT is you are finished more quickly and can devote 100% of your effort to school. The disadvantage is that grad school is expensive and you'll have little to no income other than student loans. The downside of PT is that you have a FT job after doing a FT job. It's really, really hard to give 100% to a job and then put in the hours needed to earn a graduate degree -- unless you're on the 10-year plan.

The next consideration is what you need to do to be competitive for grad school. Do you need to take the GRE, LSAT, MCAT, etc.? You want to prepare so you can do well, especially since SA grades (at least for USNA) tend to be less inflated than most civilian colleges (though more inflated than they were a generation ago). Those test scores will help show how smart you are. Consider paying for a prep program, since you will have been away from standardized tests (or almost any test) for a while and your brain no longer thinks that way.

I was worried about my GPA. However, one thing that definitely helped me was my class rank. My GPA wasn't great (compared to the average for the grad schools to which I applied), but it was pretty decent compared to the rest of my USNA class. I also sent a letter (this was before email) to the USNA registrar asking that they annotate my transcript regarding how challenging USNA academics was. I don't know whether or not this happened, but I was accepted to my schools of choice. Of course, this was many years ago and things may have changed.

My final bit of advice . . . go to grad school with a purpose, not b/c you are getting out and don't know what else to do. I can't tell you how many people in my law school class admitted the following: I graduated from (pick a really, really good college), worked as a (pick your not-very-interesting and not-well-paying job such as bank teller), was bored and so decided to go to grad school. Most of those people ended up miserable because they didn't actually want to do what they were studying to do.

If you're not sure what you want to study or even if you want to study, get a job for a few years. As a military JO, you will have lots of choices (consider attending SACC, BTW). Then, if you need a graduate degree, your company might well send you. Or, you will have figured out what you do want to study, will have socked away some money, and will be in a much better position to attend and succeed in grad school.
 
usna1985 said:
My final bit of advice . . . go to grad school with a purpose, not b/c you are getting out and don't know what else to do. I can't tell you how many people in my law school class admitted the following: I graduated from (pick a really, really good college), worked as a (pick your not-very-interesting and not-well-paying job such as bank teller), was bored and so decided to go to grad school. Most of those people ended up miserable because they didn't actually want to do what they were studying to do.

If you're not sure what you want to study or even if you want to study, get a job for a few years. As a military JO, you will have lots of choices (consider attending SACC, BTW). Then, if you need a graduate degree, your company might well send you. Or, you will have figured out what you do want to study, will have socked away some money, and will be in a much better position to attend and succeed in grad school.
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I absolutely agree with this. It's been over 5 years since I got out. I knew I wanted to work in cybersecurity, and it's a field that doesn't really rely on formal education. Having a degree in EECS helps of course, but I've met talented people in this field without an undergraduate degree. I was well established in my career field by the time the pandemic hit about a year after I got out. Don't just go to school to go to school. Begin with the end in mind.

I went to a SACC a year or two ago when I was in the process of leaving my second civilian job. I'd been actively interviewing with other firms at that time. At that point I'd had maybe 3-4 years experience as a seasoned consultant/expert engineer. I wasn't just a JO with a PMP. It was crazy the amount of offers I got from the tech companies and banks there.

There's good value in going and getting a job first and then going to graduate school. Heck, I had a classmate take a couple years off and be an EMT while going to do a post-bacc. They're now at one of the top medical schools in the country.
 
Question?

What is 100% tuition and housing allowance?
Tuition differs state to state and school to school.
So with this provision a cadet needs to stay 7 to 8 years to get the New GI Bill?

Post-9/11 GI Bill: General InformationWho is Eligible for Benefits Under the Post-9/11 GI Bill? Individuals who serve at least 90 days of aggregate active duty service after Sept. 10, 2001. To be eligible for 100 percent of the benefit, one of the following must be true:• You served 36 total months of active duty.• You were discharged after Sept. 10, 2001 for a service-connected disability after 30 days of continuous active duty service.Note: Active duty service time required by graduates of a service academy or ROTC does not count toward the three years necessary to qualify for full benefits. If you served fewer than 36 months, your percentage of benefits ranges from 40 to 90 percent: • 90 percent: 30 total months, including active duty in entry level and skill training• 80 percent: 24 total months, including active duty in entry level and skill training • 70 percent: 18 total months, excluding active duty in entry level and skill training• 60 percent: 12 total months, excluding active duty in entry level and skill training• 50 percent: six total months, excluding active duty in entry level and skill training• 40 percent: 90 or more days, excluding active duty in entry level and skill training
 

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banjoppd said:
Question?

What is 100% tuition and housing allowance?
Tuition differs state to state and school to school.
So with this provision a cadet needs to stay 7 to 8 years to get the New GI Bill?

Post-9/11 GI Bill: General InformationWho is Eligible for Benefits Under the Post-9/11 GI Bill? Individuals who serve at least 90 days of aggregate active duty service after Sept. 10, 2001. To be eligible for 100 percent of the benefit, one of the following must be true:• You served 36 total months of active duty.• You were discharged after Sept. 10, 2001 for a service-connected disability after 30 days of continuous active duty service.Note: Active duty service time required by graduates of a service academy or ROTC does not count toward the three years necessary to qualify for full benefits. If you served fewer than 36 months, your percentage of benefits ranges from 40 to 90 percent: • 90 percent: 30 total months, including active duty in entry level and skill training• 80 percent: 24 total months, including active duty in entry level and skill training • 70 percent: 18 total months, excluding active duty in entry level and skill training• 60 percent: 12 total months, excluding active duty in entry level and skill training• 50 percent: six total months, excluding active duty in entry level and skill training• 40 percent: 90 or more days, excluding active duty in entry level and skill training
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Correct - in order for Service Academy graduates to obtain 100% of the Post 9/11 GI Bill, they need to serve 36 months of active duty service after completing their 5 years of Active Duty Service Obligation (ADSO). My Academy class at USCGA was the last to obtain 100% entitlement of the Post 9/11 GI Bill at our third year anniversary of graduation due to an oversight from Congress.

Because USCGA is in DHS and not DOD, we became entitled DURING our ADSO. This was amended in U.S. Code later so that cadets entering an agreement after January 2011 would become inline with the DOD Service Academies ADSO requirement.

The Post 9/11 GI Bill will cover ALL tuition and fees for in-state schools. The Veterans Access, Choice, and Accountability Act of 2014 included a provision that allows veterans to be considered in-state residents for tuition purposes at any public university. It REQUIRES (specifically Section 702) public institutions of higher education to charge in-state tuition rates to veterans and their eligible dependents, regardless of their state of residency.

Veterans who go to private institutions with 100% eligibility may be eligible for the Yellow Ribbon Program, which helps make up for the private institution cap of ~28K/academic year.

Here's a table:

| **Active Duty Service** | **Percentage of Maximum Benefit Payable** | **Yellow Ribbon Program Eligibility** |
|------------------------------------------------- |------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------|
| 90 days to less than 6 months | 50% | Not Eligible |
| 6 months to less than 18 months | 60% | Not Eligible |
| 18 months to less than 24 months | 70% | Not Eligible |
| 24 months to less than 30 months | 80% | Not Eligible |
| 30 months to less than 36 months | 90% | Not Eligible |
| 36 months or more | 100% | Eligible |
| Service-connected disability discharge after 30 days | 100% | Eligible |
 
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