Grenade!!

JustAnotherDad said:
Does anyone what it means to "repeat a year"? Do they have to re-take the same classes, so they'll essentially be Plebes again? Or do they now have more time in their schedule because they've already completed most of the first-year courses?

Regardless, I guess the Class of 2025 is now +51 members and the Class of 2024 is -73 members?
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Whoa. Class of '24 was not involved in the cheating, which occurred before '24 showed up. Most (all?) cadets involved were '23. '24 will absorb some turn-backs, but none of this year's plebes were involved.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Not really. They put off commissioning for another year.
Also, while I’m not familiar with these cases, those in such situations have additional training requirements.
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But someone is paying for their housing, food, clothing, education, training, etc. for another year. I'm pretty sure it's us taxpayers. It's seems unfortunate to me that someone who runs 30 secs too slow in a fitness test gets booted out with no question, but a caught cheater gets to do-over an entire academic year with no financial burden.
 
brewmeist said:
But someone is paying for their housing, food, clothing, education, training, etc. for another year. I'm pretty sure it's us taxpayers. It's seems unfortunate to me that someone who runs 30 secs too slow in a fitness test gets booted out with no question, but a caught cheater gets to do-over an entire academic year with no financial burden.
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Awesome!!! Another year at the SA!
Said no Cadet or Midshipmen. Ever.
The 30 seconds on an fitness test is NOT a one time thing. You are given many opportunities to train and improve. Frankly, failing the run on the APFT by 30 seconds is pretty slow. I think you can jog/walk that.
 
SADad said:
Whoa. Class of '24 was not involved in the cheating, which occurred before '24 showed up. Most (all?) cadets involved were '23. '24 will absorb some turn-backs, but none of this year's plebes were involved.
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“All but one were freshmen, or plebes, in a class of 1,200. The other was a sophomore.” This is a quote from the article regarding how the majority of those who cheated were Class of 2024.

The exam they were cheating on was also a Calculus I exam which the majority of people take their Freshman year.
 
This is definitely the cynical side of me, but how do you feel the need to cheat on Calculus I? I am not going to say it is an easy course because many people struggle with it in college. However if you are at West Point and you are cheating on one of the easier STEM courses you will take there, that is just sad in my opinion.
 
fullspeedahead said:
“All but one were freshmen, or plebes, in a class of 1,200. The other was a sophomore.” This is a quote from the article regarding how the majority of those who cheated were Class of 2024.

The exam they were cheating on was also a Calculus I exam which the majority of people take their Freshman year.
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The cheating happened last year at the end of the Plebe year for class of ‘23 while the Cadets were doing virtual classes. The honor board process could not start until they returned, or their yuck year.
 
fullspeedahead said:
“All but one were freshmen, or plebes, in a class of 1,200. The other was a sophomore.” This is a quote from the article regarding how the majority of those who cheated were Class of 2024.

The exam they were cheating on was also a Calculus I exam which the majority of people take their Freshman year.
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Wrong 100% - ALL but one were class of 2023. This took place last spring (so, one year ago) when these Cadets in the c/o '23 were Plebes. My son (Class of '24) was still a Senior in HS when this was going on.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Awesome!!! Another year at the SA!
Said no Cadet or Midshipmen. Ever.
The 30 seconds on an fitness test is NOT a one time thing. You are given many opportunities to train and improve. Frankly, failing the run on the APFT by 30 seconds is pretty slow. I think you can j
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I'm pretty sure there's been quite a few Cadets and Mids who have said they would rather spend another year at the academy than getting kicked out.

I never said that those failing the fitness tests shouldn''t have to leave. They failed a requirement. I just tnink it is unfortunate for them vs those caught in this scandal.

The point I am trying to make is that I do not consider another year of a fully gov't funded education punishment. Do they deserve a second chance? I guess... But they should at least owe another year of service obligation.
 
brewmeist said:
I'm pretty sure there's been quite a few Cadets and Mids who have said they would rather spend another year at the academy than getting kicked out.

I never said that those failing the fitness tests shouldn''t have to leave. They failed a requirement. I just tnink it is unfortunate for them vs those caught in this scandal.

The point I am trying to make is that I do not consider another year of a fully gov't funded education punishment. Do they deserve a second chance? I guess... But they should at least owe another year of service obligation.
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You originally wrote “not a bad deal”. Is it better than being kicked out? Of course. But it’s not something anyone seeks to do and if you were to ask any Cadet or Midshipmen they would most certainly say it’s a punishment. Same with the program where you are sent to the enlisted ranks for a few years, then permitted to come back if recommended. It’s a good learning experience, but not something Cadets and Midshipmen aspire to achieve when they arrive. Yes, the military will be paying for an extra year, but the Cadets are also paying by delaying their commissioning by a year. Over a 20 year career being 12 months behind your peers can add up to a good deal of money.
I would also point out that none of these Cadets had yet to affirm, so this is being done voluntarily and not all Cadets were given this option. Some were expelled.
Finally, my point about PT is that Cadets are given almost four years to pass and are given quite a bit of assistance, so it is hardly the same. If someone can not pass a physical test after that much time and help then they have issues.
 
I read the released report on the USMA cheating scandal and a big reason why these cadets are getting another opportunity is because of the honor policy that has been in place the last few years which allows a cadet to self report their involvement in an honor offense and then have a path to stay at West Point. I believe it was around 50 who self admitted to cheating here. The Superintendent also said that they are no longer going to have that as a policy going forward as he does not believe it worked as it was intended. Hopefully I am summarizing that correctly but others can weigh in that have more knowledge. As far as the Naval Academy physics scandal, it happened this past fall and appears to have involved around 80 in the class of 2023. Final report has not been made official but word inside Bancroft is that the Mids involved were pulled from Physics 2 part way through this second semester, they will be retaking Physics 1 in summer school and Physics 2 next fall. They are also on restriction and cannot currently compete in Varsity sports. I do not believe they were asked to repeat a year. Some have chosen to leave USNA but I do not know how many. Covid has been very tough environment for all and lets hope our academies quickly recover and press forward in training excellent young people.
 
My question is whether they are kicked off varsity teams vs not participating due to off season.

Since this fall was a freebie with ncaa, all the football players could technically play 5 years. That seems like a reward within the punishment.
 
justme said:
My question is whether they are kicked off varsity teams vs not participating due to off season.

Since this fall was a freebie with ncaa, all the football players could technically play 5 years. That seems like a reward within the punishment.
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But it seems like the athletes have a bigger punishment.

The truth is the physics 2 removal, the physics 1 this summer, and physics 2 first semester is extremely tough to overcome academically imo for students that needed to cheat on physics 1.

Whether it’s adequate for the honor offense is another matter.
 
TexasAggie204 said:
Just curious what makes you say that? Do you have some information that the Class of 2024 has lost more than in previous years?
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Class of 2024 lost about 120 new cadets during beast. That's about triple what Class of 2022 during beast. Interesting that 2024 had a much shorter beast yet lost many more cadets.
 
Impulsive said:
I am confused, C/O 2023 has NOT affirmed yet! They don't until after they return from the summer. How would you know how many do not affirm?
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I was confused too! Also most have this confused, it was class of 2023 that was cheating. Turnbacks will be part of class of 2024. I would imagine that 2023 will lose a lot before affirmation but those numblers will not be available until after August when the classes start.
 
DDmom said:
Class of 2024 lost about 120 new cadets during beast. That's about triple what Class of 2022 during beast. Interesting that 2024 had a much shorter beast yet lost many more cadets.
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Interesting...my son is a part of that class (2024), and, when we asked him, had no idea how many in his class had quit. Not one Plebe in his company has quit (he did know that much). If 120 did quit during Beast that is a real shame. There's a bunch of c/o '25 re-applicants in this Forum that would have loved to have been there in their place.
 
One of the events we attended at WP (possibly Ring Weekend?) had all of the cadets file past where we standing on their way to the outdoor amphitheater overlooking the Hudson. It made us realize how much 4,000 future officers really is. It’s a lot. It’s a very impressive sight to see so many bright young faces march by with such obvious pride in their profession in front of family and the larger public. One of the things that became apparent as they filed by for almost a 1/2 hour was that there’s “enough” of them that it’s ok if a handful jump straight to professional sports, that a handful get thrown out for cheating, or that a handful get separated for failure to uphold various the standards. Like pruning a garden, it’s much better for the garden to do so... even if the pruned branch (or the parent of the pruned branch) take exception to the analogy. For those who did cheat, their lives are not over. But they’re going to have to dig deep and reevaluate how they got to this point. And that’s ok.
 
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