Grenade!!

I'm not quite sure where this number of 120 cadets left during the 2024 BEAST but I am almost certain it is far less than that.
 
DDmom said:
We raised our kids the same, not quitters!
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We had a family saying..."you can quit now! ...quit complaining!" Seemed to shut everybody up.

Though to be 100% honest, we let our youngest quit soccer when he was like 6. The story is, at that age they played without goalies. Being the youngest of 4, the competitive side of him just couldn't let the other team score without any opposition. So, he would linger back around the goal trying not to be noticed as the quasi-goalkeeper. His coaches would yell for him to get in the play on offense, but he was having none of that. So basically when he was told by his coaches that he wasn't allowed to act has a goalie, he told us after a game that he was never going back...too frustrating for him to just let the other team score when they hadn't earned it. Hard to argue with that sentiment, so we let him bail and he never played again. He still hates soccer...
 
DDmom said:
It is my understanding and I could be wrong but I think after their probationary period they are able to compete in sports again. I think for most that would put them back in their sports by fall. Like I said I could have misinterpreted what I read.
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See, this is the part that I'm still trying to wrap my head around. Players cheated in Spring '20. The change in representation policy in Fall '20 allowed apparently 16 - 17 football players to remain on the roster all the way to the Liberty Bowl. Cases finally adjudicated in Spring '21, and now doing SLDP-H for four to six months. Upon completion, they are again eligible to represent USMA. They are held back one academic year, exactly matching the one additional year of athletic eligibility because of NCAA COVID rules. They all suit up for the Fall '21 football opener, having never missed a game.

Is this how it works? What am I missing?
 
It's good to be an athlete..:) I am left to wonder if ALL the 73 involved were just plain old plebes, if the result would have been the same....:) The timing and additional eligibility does raise questions, it seems like athletes get "perks" everywhere, college, SA's, and just about any other type of educational institution including high school. It doesn't remove the fact that almost all of them get to continue without issue. I wonder if the "probation" is real or imagined?

I am sorry if I seem cynical, I guess it is the times we live in....:)
 
Impulsive said:
It's good to be an athlete..:) I am left to wonder if ALL the 73 involved were just plain old plebes, if the result would have been the same....:) The timing and additional eligibility does raise questions, it seems like athletes get "perks" everywhere, college, SA's, and just about any other type of educational institution including high school. It doesn't remove the fact that almost all of them get to continue without issue. I wonder if the "probation" is real or imagined?

I am sorry if I seem cynical, I guess it is the times we live in....:)
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Have you actually known a D1 athlete? It is a huge time commitment. There is a reason many of the athletes don’t stay on the teams for four years at SAs. I know many drop sports after their plebe year.
 
SADad said:
See, this is the part that I'm still trying to wrap my head around. Players cheated in Spring '20. The change in representation policy in Fall '20 allowed apparently 16 - 17 football players to remain on the roster all the way to the Liberty Bowl. Cases finally adjudicated in Spring '21, and now doing SLDP-H for four to six months. Upon completion, they are again eligible to represent USMA. They are held back one academic year, exactly matching the one additional year of athletic eligibility because of NCAA COVID rules. They all suit up for the Fall '21 football opener, having never missed a game.

Is this how it works? What am I missing?
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This is my understanding...the players will never miss a game? Makes you wonder though how much input supe had, he is all about football.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Have you actually known a D1 athlete? It is a huge time commitment. There is a reason many of the athletes don’t stay on the teams for four years at SAs. I know many drop sports after their plebe year.
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@UHBlackhawk I think you missed the point with your response. The Football players involved seemingly suffered little or no consequences related to their sport for their actions.


I am a D1 athlete. The preferential treatment that athletes receive at USNA is astonishing for a military academy. I'm sure USMA is no different.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Have you actually known a D1 athlete? It is a huge time commitment. There is a reason many of the athletes don’t stay on the teams for four years at SAs. I know many drop sports after their plebe year.
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I actually was a D1 athlete in college (Tennis) so I am very much aware of the time constraints placed on athletes. I am also keenly aware of the "benefits" that being a D1 athlete carry. Extra academic help, travel (with additional academic time for assignments), coaches helping with conflicts or problems, and YES, I was aware of some athletes getting intervention on grades and infractions. And this back in the early 80's, now with the advent of athletes likely being able to make endorsement money (don't know how the SA's will handle that), getting cars, and other gifts from Graduate Organizations (again I have no idea how SA's handle this), and the perception (throughout academia) of D1 athletes being advantaged against "regular" students.

So YES, I am aware of the drawbacks of being an athlete on free time, but the advantages seem to outweigh the liabilities at the SA's, and Universities.
 
SADad said:
They are held back one academic year, exactly matching the one additional year of athletic eligibility because of NCAA COVID rules. They all suit up for the Fall '21 football opener, having never missed a game.

Is this how it works? What am I missing?
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It doesn’t appear you are missing anything. USMA benefits from the athletes’ uninterrupted participation. Athletes benefit as well.

UHBlackhawk said:
Have you actually known a D1 athlete? It is a huge time commitment. There is a reason many of the athletes don’t stay on the teams for four years at SAs. I know many drop sports after their plebe year.
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The time commitment seems unrelated to the issues of honor violations and punishment. If you don’t want to discuss those things, why did you toss the grenade to begin with? I’m genuinely confused by that. With so many D1 athletes involved, how do we sidestep the issue of whether that status played a role in this mess.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Have you actually known a D1 athlete? It is a huge time commitment. There is a reason many of the athletes don’t stay on the teams for four years at SAs. I know many drop sports after their plebe year.
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Thank you... my DS is a plebe this year (not 2023 and not involved) however I can tell you that not all D1 sports at SA are equal in their resources but ALL do require an enormous amount of time (3-4hrs a day). If you figure in those hours spent each day training that they could be studying, doing AI or even attending tutor/study groups that are encouraged and available to help cadets who might be struggling academically.
My DS is “in season” for both semester and has meets almost every weekend for 5 of the academic months. He loves his sport and is a smart young man, but it’s a struggle so I can see why cadets end up choosing to drop their sport. I am just asking to not lump all D1 athletes into this unfortunate situation.
 
Impulsive said:
I actually was a D1 athlete in college (Tennis) so I am very much aware of the time constraints placed on athletes. I am also keenly aware of the "benefits" that being a D1 athlete carry. Extra academic help, travel (with additional academic time for assignments), coaches helping with conflicts or problems, and YES, I was aware of some athletes getting intervention on grades and infractions. And this back in the early 80's, now with the advent of athletes likely being able to make endorsement money (don't know how the SA's will handle that), getting cars, and other gifts from Graduate Organizations (again I have no idea how SA's handle this), and the perception (throughout academia) of D1 athletes being advantaged against "regular" students.

So YES, I am aware of the drawbacks of being an athlete on free time, but the advantages seem to outweigh the liabilities at the SA's, and Universities.
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A D1 athlete at a regular college and at an SA are not remotely the same and I am speaking from experience. I have a DS on a D1 team at an SA currently and they have not one of the above mentioned advantages. I can not speak for all of the sports teams but only the one my DS is on.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Have you actually known a D1 athlete? It is a huge time commitment. There is a reason many of the athletes don’t stay on the teams for four year
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UHBlackhawk said:
Have you actually known a D1 athlete? It is a huge time commitment. There is a reason many of the athletes don’t stay on the teams for four years at SAs. I know many drop sports after their plebe year.
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Is there a different cadet oath for D1 athletes?
 
Well, at USNA there is definitely a different food supplier. And yes, I know it comes from a different budget. And yes, they work their a**es off and have major commitments.
But when you have an ice cream scoop of unidentifiable grain (maybe rice?) and your football roomie has surf and turf, how does morale and the “we are all in this together work out”? I mean my kid has stood watches for his D1 athlete to assist. So the non athletes carry a different weight to help. Done. We are a team. We are shipmates. But doesn’t that mean the rules should apply evenly?
Add to that the appearance to the outsiders that most football affected cadets didn’t miss a game? Based on what is being shared so far. Hard to swallow that one on its face.
 
Skipper07 said:
@UHBlackhawk I think you missed the point with your response. The Football players involved seemingly suffered little or no consequences related to their sport for their actions.


I am a D1 athlete. The preferential treatment that athletes receive at USNA is astonishing for a military academy. I'm sure USMA is no different.
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I think it might actually be where they benefited rather than suffered or not suffered consequences... Because they are being rolled back they would actually get to play NCAA football for 5 complete seasons due to 2020's freebie year. So, not only do they not get suspended, but they are gifted12 extra games to play.

If that holds true, that definitely allows for some healthy cynicism of the punishment. At the least, to me, they should be held out of their sport one year of the five.
 
ETM said:
You are correct in that the USNA that issues regarding SP211 were from last December and initially involved around 80 in the Class of 2023. There are now more than 110 associated. You are also correct in that the MIDNs involved were issued failing grades for SP211 and their enrollment in Physics 2 was withdrawn. However, it should be noted that this action was before the MIDNs involved were even formally charged. This was a public statement to the Brigade, in my opinion, that goes against the value of innocence until proven guilty and a violation of the MIDNs rights to confidentiality.

The problem that I have with all of this is that there has been a presumption of guilt. These young men and women are only now having their Honor Boards and many are being found not guilty of these charges through the established process. Yet the damage is done to their academic record and their training schedules. Because of COVID, the training for the Class of 2023 had already been marginalized.

Some will be asked to leave, appropriately so. Some will take qualified resignation. I am just sad for those that voluntarily resign after being found innocent because they come to the conclusion they will not be given the opportunity to succeed.
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Agree with you! There was definitely lost confidentiality here and presumption of guilt by the steps taken. And completely agree it has affected the Class of 2023 training. The slingshot (scrambling) of the 2023's to random new companies likely another fallout of all this. I do hope they have successful training evolutions this summer and can be reenergized for the fall semester.
 
Love4monsters said:
Is this confirmed? So potentially USMA has cadets who cheated and violated the cadet oath but will receive another year of eligibility before affirming to live the life? USMA espoused the entire season of how they were able to fill the schedule etc.Why would another year be available? Just wow.
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NCAA gave all athletes a free year of eligibility due to covid, regardless of whether their school's season was played. No idea how USMA is handling this situation.
 
TexasAggie204 said:
If 120 did quit during Beast that is a real shame. There's a bunch of c/o '25 re-applicants in this Forum that would have loved to have been there in their place.
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Wait a second... so say 120 did quit during Beast, those spot are going to remain empty? No one who was waitlisted gets to fill their spot?

Disappointing in my opinion, I completely agree with you TexasAggie204, they just took away a spot which could've gone to someone else who now has to go through the application process all over again.
 
TexasAggie204 said:
Who knows? Maybe a lot of these kids had carryover PTSD from missing their Prom and walking at their Graduation? Or maybe this is the new "normal" and more and more kids will quit whatever is in front of them when things get tough.

We told our son to think long and hard before hitting that acceptance button on the USMA Candidate Portal, because once he did, there would be NO QUITTING!

Do parents even tell their kids that anymore???
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I'm one of the lucky ones who have parents like that.

When it comes to selecting courses, auditioning for different programs, signing up for volunteer work, applying for a job, they always ask me if it's something I can handle on top of the current workload I have. I think about it, then say yes or no. I'm the one making the decision, I'm the one who should accept the consequences of my choices if there are any.

Reading this thread now has me understanding what my parent's always tell me, "You're lucky that it's with us than not with someone else." By this they mean that I'm lucky that they're there to teach me the consequences of any mistake I make, before I make said mistake out in the real world and suffer even worse consequences. I get caught cheating, better to have my parent's teach me not to do that than to walk into an SA thinking I can cheat and get kicked out or held back then think, "Why didn't my parent's teach me this? I never knew."

These kids (I shouldn't be saying that since I'm younger than them) should've thought through everything before choosing to accept their seat. Mom and Dad aren't there to hold their hand anymore and say, "Oh it's okay, don't worry about it. We'll take care of it for you."

Sorry this is all jumbled but if you understand my thought process then kudos to you.
 
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