Honest Question about VMI

Falcon A said:
Based on your "Tier 3" comment I assume he is doing NROTC -- I don't have a lot of experience with that or USNA but there are a number of folks on the forum that do.
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Lumpcrab, I'm not one of the folks that Falcon A is referring to that knows a lot about NROTC, but I believe that Navy and Air Force ROTC are much more attainable with a STEM major than a tier 3 type major. If your DS is open to any military branch and is interested in history, political science, etc., he may want to consider applying for AROTC or NROTC Marine option. Caution: he can't apply for both NROTC and NROTC Marine option - it's one or the other.

At USNA all majors require pretty heavy STEM courses, but he could focus on his areas of interest as his major and doesn't have to choose a STEM major.

Lots of threads about ROTC that you could search for good information.
 
My dad is a 1995 VMI grad (the last year the Institute was all male) and he collected almost every newspaper article on the Supreme Court case. VMI saw itself as a producer of Southern gentlemen and wanted to stay all male. They also used to play Dixie (the national anthem of the Condederacy) at graduation and unfortunately there was a fair amount of hazing going on as well. As a result, some people dislike VMI and see it as misogynistic or racist. However, VMI has come a very long way since then and continues to make their school as fair to everyone as possible.
 
Ugh, I have been learning about ROTC and the levels/ tiers and so forth in another thread and whoo boy, it would certainly be helpful for him if he wanted to be an engineer! Or even if he wanted to be anything STEM, especially as someone pointed out in that thread, he will essentially end up with a minor in Engineering anyway via Navy! And he does fine in those subjects - he's an A student and is taking AP Calc AB, Physics and AP Bio this year and has already also taken Chem, so he is certainly capable.

So I don't know, I really don't, and this is where as a parent I want to throw up my hands and run screaming from the room.. He would have a better shot with either of the first two tiers and his stats are all very good. But would he be happy majoring in something from Tier 2? I have no idea!

Also, just to lay it all out there, I had a hard time coming to grips with him wanting to do anything military related at all.. my Mom lost her Dad in the war as a preschool child and it (obviously) had a huge and lasting effect on her and that fear has rippled down to me. It has taken a lot for me to get over myself and support his dreams and his right to follow them. Progress has been made, but I have a real fear of him going Marine or SEAL, or even Army for that matter just because the risk is that much higher...

I know, I am definitely still a work in progress, being dragged along on my belly here..!
 
g_warren2022 said:
My dad is a 1995 VMI grad (the last year the Institute was all male) and he collected almost every newspaper article on the Supreme Court case. VMI saw itself as a producer of Southern gentlemen and wanted to stay all male. They also used to play Dixie (the national anthem of the Condederacy) at graduation and unfortunately there was a fair amount of hazing going on as well. As a result, some people dislike VMI and see it as misogynistic or racist. However, VMI has come a very long way since then and continues to make their school as fair to everyone as possible.
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I think there is a good bit of truth to this, at least as far as what people "perceive." And, quite honestly, schools like VMI and the Citadel just don't hold any appeal for the average bear, IMO. I mean, there is NO WAY I would have wanted to go there and not now either! But I can see the appeal for him, through his eyes, and his strengths and interests that I simply don't share.

I am disturbed at the idea of hazing, either at a military school or at a fraternity at a civilian school. There is a difference between instilling discipline and order, and hazing in a way meant to be harmful and degrading. My hope is that VMI is very clear on that difference. I suspect they are.
 
lumpcrab said:
I am disturbed at the idea of hazing, either at a military school or at a fraternity at a civilian school. There is a difference between instilling discipline and order, and hazing in a way meant to be harmful and degrading. My hope is that VMI is very clear on that difference. I suspect they are.
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I know VMI has cracked down hard on hazing in the past decade and a half. Of course, the Ratline is still a huge part of life, but I also think it has a good purpose that places it on the order side of your line you've drawn. And the Ratline instills a sense of camaraderie that no civilian college will. It seems like every month a meet another of my dad's friends who's a colonel or a business executive. One of the differences between a service academy and a senior military college is that instead of classmates who all go to the same service, they go into all walks of life, which can be helpful later in life.
 
lumpcrab said:
Ugh, I have been learning about ROTC and the levels/ tiers and so forth in another thread and whoo boy, it would certainly be helpful for him if he wanted to be an engineer! Or even if he wanted to be anything STEM, especially as someone pointed out in that thread, he will essentially end up with a minor in Engineering anyway via Navy! And he does fine in those subjects - he's an A student and is taking AP Calc AB, Physics and AP Bio this year and has already also taken Chem, so he is certainly capable.

So I don't know, I really don't, and this is where as a parent I want to throw up my hands and run screaming from the room.. He would have a better shot with either of the first two tiers and his stats are all very good. But would he be happy majoring in something from Tier 2? I have no idea!

Also, just to lay it all out there, I had a hard time coming to grips with him wanting to do anything military related at all.. my Mom lost her Dad in the war as a preschool child and it (obviously) had a huge and lasting effect on her and that fear has rippled down to me. It has taken a lot for me to get over myself and support his dreams and his right to follow them. Progress has been made, but I have a real fear of him going Marine or SEAL, or even Army for that matter just because the risk is that much higher...

I know, I am definitely still a work in progress, being dragged along on my belly here..!
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Has your son expressed which branch he is interested in serving in? If it's Navy then yes, there are less tier 3 scholarships available....but he has to be happy with what he is studying. I'd suggest if his heart lies in tier 3, then apply for it and hope for the best. You don't want to have him apply for a tier 1 or 2, win it, and then be miserable for four years and even beyond with a degree he doesn't like. This is just my opinion, and I'm sure there are plenty who would disagree with me on that.

As for your fears of SEALs or Marines, I can relate. Our daughter wanted EOD (explosive ordnance disposal-bomb diffusing), since she was young, maybe 13 or so. It was the highest/hardest job open to women at the time. When the Navy opened all jobs to women, she then set her sights on SEALs. (Hence, my username ;) ). She'd applied to USNA last year and had a nom but was turned down and so she chose VMI. If she'd gone to USNA she would have had 4 years to decide Navy or Marines, but of course at VMI she needed to pick her branch for Matriculation. She chose Marines and is doing great, and we are happy for her.

Mom to mom, either SEALs, EOD or Marines are the toughest, scariest parts of our military.....but they are also some of the most well-trained (aside from nukes and pilots, of course). They are highly trained in their jobs, and to me highly trained means CAPABLE! Your son will be taught very well, even more so through either USNA or ROTC as an officer. He will have four years of military training before he even goes to his "specially" school.

As for being overwhelmed, take a deep breath. Your son will be doing all of the applications, and aside from throwing money at visiting colleges or buying an interview suit etc, there really isn't much you can do, or even should be doing. If this is something he really wants, he will do it. Leave it in his hands.
 
g_warren2022 said:
It seems like every month a meet another of my dad's friends who's a colonel or a business executive. One of the differences between a service academy and a senior military college is that instead of classmates who all go to the same service, they go into all walks of life, which can be helpful later in life.
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Excellent point.
 
EOD/SEALmom, I know you are right. If the time were to come that he would want to be a Marine, well, hopefully I will have moved further along the acceptance path. You are also right about him doing what he needs to do. He's making good progress every day (today he went to school, then had an XC meet, then finished his second nomination packet and is now doing homework!)

Whatever his major is and whatever tier he would choose- that is all on him! I would never want to guide him on that and then have him come back to me, unhappy later in life. If that means no scholarship but he is doing what he loves, then so be it.
 
lumpcrab said:
Also, just to lay it all out there, I had a hard time coming to grips with him wanting to do anything military related at all.. my Mom lost her Dad in the war as a preschool child and it (obviously) had a huge and lasting effect on her and that fear has rippled down to me. It has taken a lot for me to get over myself and support his dreams and his right to follow them. Progress has been made, but I have a real fear of him going Marine or SEAL, or even Army for that matter just because the risk is that much
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Lumpcrab -- you might read through this thread from about a year and a half ago:

http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/whip-sawed-parent.41726/
 
lumpcrab said:
I am disturbed at the idea of hazing, either at a military school or at a fraternity at a civilian school. There is a difference between instilling discipline and order, and hazing in a way meant to be harmful and degrading. My hope is that VMI is very clear on that difference. I suspect they are.
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Lumpcrab -- there is definitely a "4th class system" at VMI -- they call it "The Rat Line" and the freshmen are known as Rats. They are not even known or acknowledged as a "class" until after "Resurection Week" and "Breakout" sometime in late winter/early spring. Until then they are known as a "Rat Mass" and are subject to discipline from upperclassmen, sweat parties, straining (an exaggerated position of attention), push-ups for infractions, etc. The unfamiliar might call it hazing, but it is not meant to be and if there is abuse and it is caught it is fixed. Whether it is VMI's Rat's, or Citadel's Knobs, Norwich's Rooks, West Point's or USNA's Plebes, or USAFA's Doolies, they each have a system for imparting discipline. The following link does the best job I've seen explaining the merits of experiencing such a system.

http://www.west-point.org/parent/parent-forum/why.html
 
lumpcrab said:
I am disturbed at the idea of hazing, either at a military school or at a fraternity at a civilian school. There is a difference between instilling discipline and order, and hazing in a way meant to be harmful and degrading. My hope is that VMI is very clear on that difference. I suspect they are.
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I'll be honest, if your DS chooses a SA or a school like VMI he will be going through the 4th class system in some form and you'll hear some of the unpleasant things (I'm sure no where near all the things) he will have to endure. The parent in you will not want to think of him going through it and, at times, you'll wonder if what he is enduring has any real purpose or is necessary in his development. Some of it will seem almost cruel and you will struggle with why it is happening. DW and I went through that a few times last year with DD as a Plebe at USNA and again this year with DS at VMI.

Definitely read the link that Falcon A posted. There are other examples on this forum that you may be able to find that talk about similar stressful situations military leaders are sometimes in (fire in the engine room on a ship, lose an engine as a pilot, etc.) where the training of the 4th class system from years ago automatically kicks in and they are able to focus and remember checklists and standard operating procedures to deal with the crisis among all of the chaos around them. Knowing there is a purpose, one that may someday save their life and/or the lives of those in their charge, helped my wife and I have faith that this is something they need to go through and we need to have faith in the system, and in them.
 
Dadof2 said:
I'll be honest, if your DS chooses a SA or a school like VMI he will be going through the 4th class system in some form and you'll hear some of the unpleasant things (I'm sure no where near all the things) he will have to endure. The parent in you will not want to think of him going through it and, at times, you'll wonder if what he is enduring has any real purpose or is necessary in his development. Some of it will seem almost cruel and you will struggle with why it is happening. DW and I went through that a few times last year with DD as a Plebe at USNA and again this year with DS at VMI.

Definitely read the link that Falcon A posted. There are other examples on this forum that you may be able to find that talk about similar stressful situations military leaders are sometimes in (fire in the engine room on a ship, lose an engine as a pilot, etc.) where the training of the 4th class system from years ago automatically kicks in and they are able to focus and remember checklists and standard operating procedures to deal with the crisis among all of the chaos around them. Knowing there is a purpose, one that may someday save their life and/or the lives of those in their charge, helped my wife and I have faith that this is something they need to go through and we need to have faith in the system, and in them.
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This is definitely something I have started to come to realize, and reading and hearing more about it helps greatly. I was horrified at the thought of what goes on at plebe summer (or wherever he would go) until I realized that putting them through all that stress and memorization etc is meant to HELP them and keep them and their comrades ALIVE. Having that perspective shift completely changed my response, and as a civilian who had never contemplated military life at all, I don't know that I ever would have had a reason to get there otherwise.

I guess what I meant was (and in no way am I saying that this happens at VMI or anywhere else) there is a difference to me in doing all that for that purpose, vs what I would call hazing, which would exist to intentionally demean or hurt someone as an abuse of power. It sounds like there is less of that accepted now than in years past, perhaps.

This thread has been so helpful for me. I hope it helps others along as well. Now I am going to get another cup of coffee and watch Ted Carter speak at JHU on Youtube!
 
Dadof2 said:
I'll be honest, if your DS chooses a SA or a school like VMI he will be going through the 4th class system in some form and you'll hear some of the unpleasant things (I'm sure no where near all the things) he will have to endure. The parent in you will not want to think of him going through it and, at times, you'll wonder if what he is enduring has any real purpose or is necessary in his development. Some of it will seem almost cruel and you will struggle with why it is happening. DW and I went through that a few times last year with DD as a Plebe at USNA and again this year with DS at VMI.

Definitely read the link that Falcon A posted. There are other examples on this forum that you may be able to find that talk about similar stressful situations military leaders are sometimes in (fire in the engine room on a ship, lose an engine as a pilot, etc.) where the training of the 4th class system from years ago automatically kicks in and they are able to focus and remember checklists and standard operating procedures to deal with the crisis among all of the chaos around them. Knowing there is a purpose, one that may someday save their life and/or the lives of those in their charge, helped my wife and I have faith that this is something they need to go through and we need to have faith in the system, and in them.
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This brings to mind Capt "Sully" Sullenberger, and the "fun" he no doubt had as a USAFA '73 doolie.

Staying calm and task-focused, letting the training and discipline take over, with no engines and a jet-now-a-glider full of pax, and the only landing strip in sight is a cold liquid one in January - he learned how to handle the craziness and stress starting with his service academy and military training.

My DH, a USNA grad and naval aviator, saved us one time from what was likely to be a horrible auto accident. We were crossing the Pali Pass on Oahu, at normal speed, in a small Acura Integra. There is always a lot of cloud condensate up there, and it had just started to rain. We started to skid across all the lanes, on a steep incline, with oncoming traffic and traffic behind us, cars and trucks honking, and DH was gently controlling the wheel, not over-correcting, downshifting, not touching the brakes, while telling me in a calm voice to put our new puppy on the floor and hold her behind my legs so the air bag wouldn't hit her. He put the emergency flashers on, threading us through traffic. He was steering directly for the sheer rock wall off the shoulder, working for a 90 degree angle of impact to stop the car and let the front take the hit. He actually said "brace for impact" in an absolutely calm voice. The front of the car hit dead on, we were safely off the road, air bags deployed, and we opened the doors and got out. Front of the Acura crunched. All the crap he went through as a USNA plebe plus years of military training, dicey night landings on carriers, that ability to be in the moment, tune out the noise and focus, was still a part of him.
 
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@lumpcrab I have been trying to quote your post above about having trouble with your son joining the military and your mom's loss but my tablet is being a PIA. So, without quoting it here are my thoughts, they come from a little different perspective and please take them with a grain of salt.....

I also have fears about my son serving in today's world. I'm scared and proud all at the same time. It is his desire and has been forever. He understands as best a 19 year old can, what he is signing up for. I have zero desire to lose him to war etc.

That said, unfortunately from personal experience, there are never any guarantees of tomorrow. We have lost a friend (my children's friend/classmate to a drunk driver in 2013) and earlier this year another was murdered by his step father as he protected his mother, again he was only 19. Our county has had several teens hit by cars and even drowned in a local river. Another classmate died during PT from an unknown heart condition. Sadly, you just never know. Does joining the military increase risk of being killed, probably yes, but the sad truth is they could die tomorrow, in some accident or bizarre event. I choose to look at it as every day is a gift and if he goes serving his country then I will be beyond heartbroken but proud as hell that he went for his dream, died doing what he felt called to do.




Also, just to lay it all out there, I had a hard time coming to grips with him wanting to do anything military related at all.. my Mom lost her Dad in the war as a preschool child and it (obviously) had a huge and lasting effect on her and that fear has rippled down to me. It has taken a lot for me to get over myself and support his dreams and his right to follow them. Progress has been made, but I have a real fear of him going Marine or SEAL, or even Army for that matter just because the risk is that much higher...

I know, I am definitely still a work in progress, being dragged along on my belly here..![/QUOTE]
 
You forgot the mic drop, @Capt MJ. Holy wow. My screen went a little blurry there for a minute.

@lumpcrab, I can only add to this from the perspective of a civilian who went through just one plebe year (eleven months), now twenty-seven years ago. There are habits I developed that year I still draw upon: valuing my commitment to a task more than my feelings; being absolutely always on time (because it says I value others' and my own time); being observant and mindful of my surroundings and people around me; listening carefully and actively to my subordinates (my students) and supervisors; and the beginnings of situational diplomacy and tact. I began to learn to notice and control my emotional reactions so that I could take action. I began to think about what other people on my teams needed, not just what I needed. I learned to accomplish a lot in less time, so that I had more time for the people and things that mattered to me.

None of these things are exclusive to service academies or SMCs or even the military. Any of these lessons and ways of being are available to anyone with the commitment to adopt them. However, I know for a fact that my environments after USNA did not foster that whole-person transformation in as short a time as those eleven months at USNA. I hated plebe summer and I wasn't the greatest fan of plebe year (some parts were awesome), but am so grateful and thankful for that experience.
 
So much great input and perspective here!
Regardless of what my DS ends up choosing, *I* have been stretched so much and have been taught so much.
I had no idea how much I stood to gain from this experience.
Thank you to everyone on here who has shared their words and their hearts. What a great group of people!
 
there is an appropriate amount of information passed about VMI's Rat line being intense. One of the biggest things not talked about is the following year being called the "academic Rat Line" by the Cadets. The introduction courses are over and the Dyke that was assigned to your Rat has now graduated and isn't providing the guidance of focus that had been a cornerstone of their 4rth class success. Many Cadets discover the time they thought they would have not being 4rth is now absorbed by the demands of Rank and classwork
 
zrxkuma said:
there is an appropriate amount of information passed about VMI's Rat line being intense. One of the biggest things not talked about is the following year being called the "academic Rat Line" by the Cadets. Many Cadets discover the time they thought they would have not being 4rth is now absorbed by the demands of Rank and classwork
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So true--if you commit to a place like VMI, you have to be ready to endure it and do your best through all the years as a cadet, not just the first!
 
The rat/dyke (4th class cadet/1st class cadet) system at VMI is unique. My DS is a first and his role with his rat appears to be positive support and guidance in all things VMI. DS had an awesome dyke and now DS is continuing the tradition with his rat. Breakout just occurred and rat/dyke bond is like no other...like brother rats, the bond is for life.
 
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