How likely will son get kicked out for conduct/aptitude issues?

[throwaway911p!]

Hello all,

I would like to know objectively the chances my non-freshman son would be able to stay at the Air Force Academy with a failed conduct/aptitude probation notice.

My son was placed on conduct/aptitude probation for a repeat category 2 offense for cursing like a sailor(wrong person overheard), which was upgraded to a category 3 due to it being a repeat category 2, which came with a Form 10 with 50 demerits 25/25 tours and confinements with an LOR. This made him a 4-star cadet due to being on academic and athletic probation concurently within the same semester.

His AOC failed his probation due to him wearing OCPs on a Blues day, missing a few morning formations and warfighter briefs, and coming off cynical during his SCRB. His AOC is arguing for disenrollment for a pattern of misconduct and failing to adapt to a military lifestyle, with the G-AOC agreeing with his findings, meaning that my son will have to meet the commandant.

However, what my son has going for him is that he got off both academic and athletic probation within that semester. He garnered alot of character letters from friends, teachers, and officers. He met all the deadlines for journals/meetings, and has the backing of his assigned mentor who likes him alot and believes that he can become an officer.

I know my son can be a bit of a knucklehead at times, but I'm inclined to believe that my son won't get kicked out because his offenses weren't heinous (non-alcohol/sexual/honor). I would like to hear what you all think. Thank you for your time.

 

[MidCakePa]

My son was placed on conduct/aptitude probation for a repeat category 2 offense for cursing like a sailor(wrong person overheard), which was upgraded to a category 3 due to it being a repeat category 2, which came with a Form 10 with 50 demerits 25/25 tours and confinements with an LOR.

I don’t have a military perspective. My perspective is that of someone who used to lead corporate teams and now teaches college students.

The key word here is “repeat.” No one is perfect. We all commit errors. What makes mistakes forgivable, even tolerable, is the belief that we’ll learn from them. We’ll reflect, change our behavior, and emerge better and stronger. That’s particularly vital when you're charged with leading others — even more so in life-or-death situations. Repeating mistakes, even in a so-called benign setting, may seem trivial. But it can also betray a lack of good judgment and/or the inability to reflect and/or an overweening sense of hubris — all potentially fatal in the wrong context.

As a corporate leader, I accepted and tolerated mistakes. But not a pattern of repeat mistakes. That was bad for the offender, the team, the business. And that was hardly a life-or-death context. Now imagine one involving an officer and those who look to them for leadership in more dire circumstances. Would you trust someone who can’t seem to get out of their own way?

 

[Capt MJ]

As a retired Navy officer with experience on a USNA Commandant’s staff, I don’t know enough about the AF cultural and contextual nuances that will surround a separation/retention decision. The leadership will look at details of the case, mitigating circumstances, chain of command and other input, policy, past precedent and as always, the needs of the AF.

- Failure to learn from past mistakes is not good.
- Messing up on matters that require attention to detail and personal discipline as a non-freshman, not good.
- The closer to graduation, the more concern leadership has about commissioning potential.
- If the cadet has not yet formalized the service obligation, then leadership will think long and hard about retaining the cadet, because involuntary separation after that obligation will carry a six-figure recoupment price tag.


No matter what, any cadet going in to see the Commandant will have to clearly articulate tangible action steps or changes they will make/have made to break unacceptable patterns, fully accept responsibility and accountability for past actions, demonstrate understanding of why they made the choices they did. I have watched countless midshipmen make the fatal error of not using I/ownership language in these situations: “There was an error in judgment made., and that mistake won’t be made again.” Instead of, “I knew what the regulation was, and I chose to disregard it and do X. I was wrong to do it, and upon reflection and discussion with my mentor, have come to understand Y. I decided certain rules did not apply to me, and stubbornly failed to understand Z. I have now created my personal corrective action plan and have committed to my chain of command to…”

I wish your son success in navigating this painful set of rapids.

If the worst case happens - separation - keep a few things in mind. It’s an administrative proceeding, not a criminal one. But - a form is generated that carries a range of recommendations from “highly” to “not” for other officer programs such as AFROTC or OTS. There is not necessarily an easy path right to another commissioning program, any service.

 

[Capt MJ]

And welcome new member of just a few hours!

 

[T-37IP]

pattern of misconduct and failing to adapt to a military lifestyle

I just had dinner with a previous AOC (3 years removed) and had him look at this. He seems to believe there is probably more to this story than what your son has told you. His concern was the quote above. Without more information it is impossible to say, other than plan for the worst, hope for the best. No honor violations is a good thing.

 

[raimius]

I don't know the current atmosphere there, but multiple probations and a failed one with recommendations to dismiss is not a good outlook... especially after freshman year.

The AF doesn't look kindly on low performing leaders who don't show up to work...

 

[franknd]

due to him wearing OCPs on a Blues day, missing a few morning formations and warfighter briefs

FWIW, this is what sticks out to me. Cursing seems like an odd "straw that broke the camel's back," at least to me. But the above items are problematic if they are a repeated pattern. We expect enlisted airmen to show up for work on time and in the right uniform. If that's a problem here, then I could see why commissioning is in some doubt.

 

[BBQ-Devil]

No matter what, any cadet going in to see the Commandant will have to clearly articulate tangible action steps or changes they will make/have made to break unacceptable patterns, fully accept responsibility and accountability for past actions, demonstrate understanding of why they made the choices they did. I have watched countless midshipmen make the fatal error of not using I/ownership language in these situations: “There was an error in judgment made., and that mistake won’t be made again.” Instead of, “I knew what the regulation was, and I chose to disregard it and do X. I was wrong to do it, and upon reflection and discussion with my mentor, have come to understand Y. I decided certain rules did not apply to me, and stubbornly failed to understand Z. I have now created my personal corrective action plan and have committed to my chain of command to…”

This!

 

[gonavy14]

If someone can't be trusted to dress themselves in the right uniform and show up on time, I wouldn't trust them with greater responsibilities like other people or multimillion dollar machines. One incident can be overlooked, but when it's a common occurrence with no signs of stopping, that's a problem.

 

[TBVADAD]

" cursing like a sailor"

I as a former sailor I am offended. ;-)

 

[99Gold]

Any updates @throwaway911p! ? Since there is a new commandant in town, I’m not sure if anyone can predict the outcome. My ds doesn’t feel that they have a good read on Gen. Marks yet.

I have a lot of the same concerns others have already voiced on this thread regarding “the whole story” and failure to show up to mandatory formations in the proper uniform but none of us will be involved in the decision to retain this cadet.

 

[HCopter]

Does your DS really want to be there, or is this a cry for help to get out?

It seems self-sabatoging in just about every measure.

Agree with all posts above.

Is a meeting with the Comm in this situation more of a formality, or an actual second look?

Mom to mom: I think you can be most productive by working in parallel and on your side of Northgate. Perhaps channel your energy into looking at your budget, civilian colleges, possible timeline and flowchart of actions if he is disenrolled. How you respond, your productive/constructive attitude will be a good example of how to approach problems in the future. Either way, this is just a stumble along the pentathlon of life. A big stumble, but he is healthy and has your suppport. Like Meatloaf says, 2/3 ain't bad. He will learn from this lesson and go on to a bright future, whether in the AF or not.

 

[trailrunner612]

Hello all,

I would like to know objectively the chances my non-freshman son would be able to stay at the Air Force Academy with a failed conduct/aptitude probation notice.

My son was placed on conduct/aptitude probation for a repeat category 2 offense for cursing like a sailor(wrong person overheard), which was upgraded to a category 3 due to it being a repeat category 2, which came with a Form 10 with 50 demerits 25/25 tours and confinements with an LOR. This made him a 4-star cadet due to being on academic and athletic probation concurently within the same semester.

His AOC failed his probation due to him wearing OCPs on a Blues day, missing a few morning formations and warfighter briefs, and coming off cynical during his SCRB. His AOC is arguing for disenrollment for a pattern of misconduct and failing to adapt to a military lifestyle, with the G-AOC agreeing with his findings, meaning that my son will have to meet the commandant.

However, what my son has going for him is that he got off both academic and athletic probation within that semester. He garnered alot of character letters from friends, teachers, and officers. He met all the deadlines for journals/meetings, and has the backing of his assigned mentor who likes him alot and believes that he can become an officer.

I know my son can be a bit of a knucklehead at times, but I'm inclined to believe that my son won't get kicked out because his offenses weren't heinous (non-alcohol/sexual/honor). I would like to hear what you all think. Thank you for your time.

Advice coming from someone who just graduated from USAFA. First off, I'd be careful posting all of the details on an anonymous forum, USAFA is a small school and it wouldn't be hard to figure out who your cadet is based off this information. Just some advice. Wouldn't want that to impact anything. I was in a leadership position that was involved with the SCRB's and G-SCRB's at some point- attitude is taken very seriously in those meetings. So is reoccurring offenses. I understand that missing a few things is not a major offense- but constantly missing mandatory events when you know you are already in the hot seat does show a major inability to adjust to military life. If he is going up to the Comm that is his last chance to prove himself. I would advise that he puts his head down and work hard with mentors to figure out a course of action for that meeting. He cannot go in unprepared. If he is close to being a senior, unfortunately I would say that the odds are not in his favor. They are trying to commission prepared and motivated officers. My advice to you- I have seen my own friends in trouble to the point of almost getting kicked out, and they relied heavily on their families for support. Even if he says he is fine, probations can really dig deep into some people. Worse comes to worse, help him understand that there is life outside of USAFA. It is not the end of the world even though that is how it feels when you're inside of 'the bubble'.

 

[Capt MJ]

Advice coming from someone who just graduated from USAFA. First off, I'd be careful posting all of the details on an anonymous forum, USAFA is a small school and it wouldn't be hard to figure out who your cadet is based off this information. Just some advice. Wouldn't want that to impact anything. I was in a leadership position that was involved with the SCRB's and G-SCRB's at some point- attitude is taken very seriously in those meetings. So is reoccurring offenses. I understand that missing a few things is not a major offense- but constantly missing mandatory events when you know you are already in the hot seat does show a major inability to adjust to military life. If he is going up to the Comm that is his last chance to prove himself. I would advise that he puts his head down and work hard with mentors to figure out a course of action for that meeting. He cannot go in unprepared. If he is close to being a senior, unfortunately I would say that the odds are not in his favor. They are trying to commission prepared and motivated officers. My advice to you- I have seen my own friends in trouble to the point of almost getting kicked out, and they relied heavily on their families for support. Even if he says he is fine, probations can really dig deep into some people. Worse comes to worse, help him understand that there is life outside of USAFA. It is not the end of the world even though that is how it feels when you're inside of 'the bubble'.

Well said.

 

[justsomecadet]

A major and a colonel punch a lot higher than character letters. Also, Gavin Marks does not seem like a forgiving man. He's still very much an honor guard guy, frequently talks about not making the same mistake twice and has been heard to remark that the upper three have it too easy...
I would go in with low expectations.

 

[99Gold]

A major and a colonel punch a lot higher than character letters. Also, Gavin Marks does not seem like a forgiving man. He's still very much an honor guard guy, frequently talks about not making the same mistake twice and has been heard to remark that the upper three have it too easy...
I would go in with low expectations.

That pendulum is always swinging. I was pretty shocked at first by a lot of the privileges my ds had last year as a 4 degree not to mention the three upper classes, but new Comms like to change things. The name Gavin P. Marks still makes me quake in my boots a bit being a ‘99er, but he is a long time removed from Honor Guard Commander. Maybe that stays with you forever. I’m interested to see how this year shapes up.

I did have to meet with the Comm when I was a firstie with my 2-degree assistant. He had made some bad choices on his 21st birthday and was very close to getting kicked out. Thankfully, his clean record, our AOC, and myself spoke so highly of him, that he was retained. So Comms meetings can matter. I guarantee he was a model cadet after that until graduation. That was one scary meeting.

 

[CrewDad]

@throwaway911p! I’ve seen and heard a lot of this situation from Cadets and MIDNs across the Academies since 1985. Over the years, all Academies have become more flexible and forgiving subject to severity, class year, and if the person is a repeat offender. It appears your son has only one thing going for him that he’s a underclass man or a Doolie.

You should do this as a parent, and more importantly your son should do this. Ask yourself, is Air Force right for me. Is military right for me. Do I want to do what Academy expect me to do for 4 years and then for another 5-11 years as an officer. Can I lead and mentor others to do what I’m being told to become and transform into an Air Force Officer.

If you or your son struggles to answer this, it’s already a poor fit. And more likely he will either be asked to leave or he may DOR.

If initially going to the Air Force Academy was for free ride you now learned that it’s not a free ride. There are places where you can get a free ride and graduate with a bachelors degree. If staying in the Academy remains to be service to others before yourself than that’s where you start and learn to get with the program the Academy expects from your son.

Based on what you wrote, it appears his chance is very slim. If he is asked to come for review by the board administered by Commandant or Supe then it is very likely he is already on his way to be separated. Air Force is looking to keep those who can be trained and become an officer and who can transform others. But if your son struggles to transform and become an officer than the military is a wrong place to start his career. It’s not about bad mouth and language but it’s about attitude and willingness to follow. He is learning leadership through followership.

He may not have much choice at this point except to be very honest and own up to his failures and mistakes and to ask the Commandant a chance for him to right himself and to become an Air Force Officer through the Air Force Academy. Unfortunately, it’s not for everyone and about 150-200 Cadets do not graduate with their entering class. Hope your son can work this out for himself.

 

[justsomecadet]

but he is a long time removed from Honor Guard Commander. Maybe that stays with you forever.

He spent multiple minutes in the all call talking about how honor guard was the hardest thing he's ever done in ~25ish years of service...
He did not endear himself to the cadet wing

 

[Anonymous121]

We have a saying in the Army: "Right time, right place, right uniform." Literally do those things and you are good. Evidently, there is a failure to do all of these things. Not just once but several times. This is something I might expect from a junior enlisted SM, not a potential officer.

 

[T-37IP]

Any resolution?