How much can being white hurt you in admissions?

[shiner]

Dig into my prior posts about class composition for one perspective on how to dig out the ultimate answer you are seeking - how many seats does School X have for my demographic in any given class. To me - that is the real number of seats you are competing for. An appointee can say they received one of 1400 appointment offers out of ~15000 that applied, but the reality is that they were only ever really competing for a smaller subset of the overall class composition. Many will see my view as negative, but I am just being a realist.

At the end of the day, there are elements about your student resume that you control. Race and gender are two things out of your control. If they are out of your control, you should be aware but cannot dwell on the matter - it is a poor use of your most precious commodity - time.

Regardless - white males make up more seats in ANY SA class than any other single demographic. So is it a disadvantage?

 

[A1Janitor]

As mentioned, we started with looking at the actual applicant and admitted profiles. We looked at who USMA had the opportunity to admit and who actually ended up attending, year over year over year, and drew conclusions based on the mass quantitative data. We'd encourage reading the site. You're welcome to analyze the raw data yourself and present different findings. It takes a bit more effort than snapping provocative questions in a reply, but it's very illuminating as to what's going on in our Academy.

How do you correlate the averages to specific applicants slates?

How do you know that candidate A is better than candidate B in the eyes of admissions? Because A had higher grades?

How do you know the competition on each slate and their WCS and their color etc?

Are you an applicant? Are you a parent?

 

[cb7893]

If your WCS is lower than any race on your slate, it would be your lower WCS responsible and not the color of your skin.

We don’t know who gets LOAs and for what reason. Anything else is speculation.

The people who are appointed earned it.

Even if you were able to get the definitive answer to your question what difference would it make?

Would your decision to apply be determined by the knowledge? If not, why ask it?

Are you assuming all minorities on your slate aren’t as good as you? Or if a white person wins your slate, they were qualified?

@A1Janitor ,

I disagree with you about so much in the Political/Covid realm, but my hat is off to you. You not only got the facts, but the spirit of this issue. The last thing we need is a nation of individuals complaining about how someone has this or that advantage before the competition starts.

 

[A1Janitor]

@A1Janitor ,

I disagree with you about so much in the Political/Covid realm, but my hat is off to you. You not only got the facts, but the spirit of this issue. The last thing we need is a nation of individuals complaining about how someone has this or that advantage before the competition starts.

Baby steps! You will join me someday in politics.

But yes - we agree.

 

[cb7893]

Yes, it's true. But not as much as if you were Asian.
https://usmadata.com/2018/06/10/on-diversity-as-strength/ to start
You need 70-100 SAT pts more than some more advantaged groups to be similarly competitive for admissions.

Are you talking about admission to USMA? SA's? Competitive civilian colleges?

If you are talking competitive civilian colleges then you are overly generalizing? There is a clear preference for first generation to attend college that supersedes most other profiling. A Vietnamese kid who unloaded trucks before school at his parents' grocery store will be looked at much differently than the Asian kid of parents with advanced degrees.

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

You can always count on a jarhead to state the obvious, can't you?

I have to say, I strongly suspect this is a troll thread.

I have seen virtually the exact same comments or questions in different SA forums here in the past 6-9 months or so posted by different people.


This is actually a somewhat popular question.

The question or statement is never from a parent or a female , always from the white male applicant , who was not going to be recruited for sports and was not a prior..

And let’s face it, it is a legit concern.

Females, minorities, those recruited for sports, priors

That is a chunk of the pleb class.

 

[cb7893]

Baby steps! You will join me someday in politics.

But yes - we agree.

Don't get your hopes up.

 

[jl123]

Two facts:

1. For competitive appointment categories administered by USMA admissions, race is not a factor. Appointments are made by Order of Merit based on WCS score. These are categories such as Congressional, Qualified Alternate (next 150), etc. USMA does conduct outreach efforts to encourage and facilitate applications by minorities, but there is no advantage given to minorities in these categories. If a MOC includes race as a factor in selecting nominees, including a Principal Nominee, USMA has no control over the selection.
2. For the 200 - 400 Additional Appointee appointments (approximately 25% of a class) that may be selected out of Order of Merit, race is a strong factor. The majority of these appointments go to recruited athletes and diversity candidates. Many years ago these appointments were more widely available to a broader spectrum of candidates. Today intense emphasis on athletic recruiting and meeting diversity goals requires USMA to increase the number of these appointments allocated to these groups. Without this allocation, USMA could not compete at the D1 level in today's environment and would fall far short of diversity goals.

An educated guess - few prestigious universities select as high a percentage of a class on merit as do the SA's.

 

[Humey]

My only issue is when they say "diversity makes us stronger" How does it make us stronger? Can they quantify it?. Does our enemy go " we cant fight the Americans, they are so diverse, there is no way our all (chose your homogeneous group) can defeat them. Dont get me wrong, i have no issue with diverse military and it should reflect our society. However, the point of the military is to have a stronger military not to social engineer. I personally feel that civilian colleges do use percentages or quotas to create their freshman classes. I think they go we need 35% Hispanics, 22% Blacks, and so on and that is how they can create this class and then publicize how the demographics of the class fits some criteria. Colleges can get away with something like this, but not the military. Should the military advertise and promote to the African American, Asian and Hispanic community in order to increase their representation, of course. Not leaving out females, didn't fit with the other groups

 

[txfwindian]

True stories from DD’s cycle, not sure what to make of it, from DD’s mouth. She is a minority candidate ( female, non-white).

- When she met the nomination coordinator at our district, this person immediately congratulated her for her decision to apply and willing to serve. And commented that she stands a great chance to be nominated ( not appointed) as our cong district lacked female representation at USMA, she said in quotes “we do not have many females apply to USMA from our district, make sure you complete your application, give your best”. She was awarded a principal nom to USMA . Did she get pnom because she was female, non-white, I really doubt that. She had a stellar resume in all respects even to compete and give a run for money to any white male/female candidate or for that matter any candidate. She ultimately decided to decline her appointment to USMA.

- An African American classmate of hers from high school applied to Rice university, he had much lower grades ( than DD), did not rank even top 20%, resume that was below average student in the Hs class. He was admitted, whereas DD was declined admission. I am sure there were social factors at play, but no regrets.

The point is ( in my opinion and as other have mentiioned) is to focus putting your best foot forward and not indulge in these petty games. Who knows what’s happening behind the curtains. At the end of the day, your ability to lead troops depends on your attitude, skill set. Gen Colin Powell ( RIP) was an African American and who rose to the highest ranks because of what he brought to the table in terms of his leadership, not his COLOR.

 

[Overwhelmed]

To further complicate this thread:

My African American liberal US Senator nominated my white son who happens to live in the last solidly Republican county in my state.

The process isn't perfect but I believe it is fair.

 

[A1Janitor]

To further complicate this thread:

My African American liberal US Senator nominated my white son who happens to live in the last solidly Republican county in my state.

I am not sure that complicates the thread. I think it speaks volumes.

 

[dadinnc]

Total click bait thread. And I was sucked right in. OP should write headlines for CNN and Fox News.

Seriously, if the OP is sincere, what’s the point? Submit your best app and move on. This head garbage destines you to fail. I sure wouldn’t want you leading my kid into battle with such a whiny, defeatist attitude.

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

Total click bait thread. And I was sucked right in. OP should write headlines for CNN and Fox News.

Seriously, if the OP is sincere, what’s the point? Submit your best app and move on. This head garbage destines you to fail. I sure wouldn’t want you leading my kid into battle with such a whiny, defeatist attitude.

You may not like the question , but then you are not applying.

but it’s a common question. It’s been asked several times before by others on different forums here.

And these kids should not be shamed for asking their questions here. I found your response less than appropriate for a forum such as this.

The potential candidates should feel free and encouraged to ask all their questions.

You should feel free to ignore them

 

[Wahoo Fan]

The OP’s questions are legitimate questions. Would candidates be better off to mark that they prefer not to answer what their ethnicity is if they are white? Or would it be worse to mark that choice on an application? That is a question I don’t know the answer to.

 

[A1Janitor]

The OP’s questions are legitimate questions. Would candidates be better off to mark that they prefer not to answer what their ethnicity is if they are white? Or would it be worse to mark that choice on an application? That is a question I don’t know the answer to.

I think the only wrong answer is putting something you aren’t. I don’t think it matters one way or another.

 

[dadinnc]

You may not like the question , but then you are not applying.

but it’s a common question. It’s been asked several times before by others on different forums here.

And these kids should not be shamed for asking their questions here. I found your response less than appropriate for a forum such as this.

The potential candidates should feel free and encouraged to ask all their questions.

You should feel free to ignore them

Okay, so what if I take back everything except the “head garbage” part. I think that’s good advice. Whether or not I liked the question, you didn’t like my answer. But I’d give exactly the same answer to my own kid.

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

The OP’s questions are legitimate questions. Would candidates be better off to mark that they prefer not to answer what their ethnicity is if they are white? Or would it be worse to mark that choice on an application? That is a question I don’t know the answer to.

Recently someone else , who knows a lot more than I, answered that specific question on a different forum.

admissions will know what not checking a race box means . It can’t help you was the answer

I feel for these kids. Most seem to be super stars in HS. And they face a real uphill battle to get in.

They are neither whiny or defeatist.

They want to get in a SA and they want to serve their country and they fear they face an uphill battle because of their sex (male) and race (white) and not being a sports recruit or a,prior.

And I think they are right. They do face a much harder road.

But I also am firm that diversity makes us better as a military and a country.

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

Okay, so what if I take back everything except the “head garbage” part. I think that’s good advice. Whether or not I liked the question, you didn’t like my answer. But I’d give exactly the same answer to my own kid.

I don’t care what you do. I thought you went out of your way to be mean. For no reason other than being internet mean.

This is a public forum where for the most part young HS kids come and ask for advice.. They are encouraged to ask for advice.

And I am amazed at the patience and kindness the regulars here show on these forums in answering these many questions.

They inspire me to try and post more like them.



You are not talking to your own kid in your own back yard. You are talking to someone else’s kid on a public forum who never asked any question that you decided to provide an answer for.

 

[MidCakePa]

Females, minorities, those recruited for sports, priors

Wading into this swamp of a thread for the last time…

DD, a USNA firstie, checks off two of those boxes. I’d bet a couple paychecks that her high-school transcript and standardized-test scores would beat those of 95% of her white male classmates. Her USNA class rank — both academic and overall — as well as her leadership billets further attest to her qualifications well beyond anything she may have done in high school — or her gender or race.

Not that she gives a rat’s behind! She’d be embarrassed if she read this. For her, it’s all about raw ability and personal performance. She’s no box-checker, just an accomplished mid and future officer who’s earned everything she’s gotten from USNA.