Is Grad School better for later in a career or directly after the USNA (IGEP)?

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bgreat

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I'm an aspiring SWO(N) officer who is an incoming plebe.

Also, I have some strong academic goals for myself at the USNA (that may seem "unrealistic"): primarily they are to become a Rhodes Scholar/Marshall Scholar and to be Valedictorian of '27.

Would it be advantageous to attend graduate school directly after the USNA, or would it be better to wait until later on in one's career?
 
Either way can work well.

The majority of officers come out of their commissioning source, head to any interim professional training, go to their first operational assignment and get on with the business of earning their warfare specialty pin. There are numerous opportunities later on in the career to roll ashore and do a full-time duty under instruction tour at either NPS, Naval War College or a civilian graduate school, or do remote or after-hours graduate school using Tuition Assistance.

USNA allows a small percentage of the class to go to grad school right away, applying for various scholarships as part of the IGEP program. There is also the VGEP program, where a mid completes all academic coursework required for graduation by the end of fall semester 1/c year. They then commute to an area school such as GWU, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, etc., and start a 1-year master’s. They live in their company area, are still midshipmen, during spring semester. They graduate with their class in May, then stay in the area as a full-time student and graduate with their Master’s in December, then head out as part of the last members of their class to their Fleet or Corps officer community pipeline.

The challenge with going to grad school right away is that, say, 2 years at MIT, then for a SWO nuke, going to the ship to earn a warfare pin, then another 18 months or so in the nuke power training pipeline, makes that officer about 2 years behind classmates who have progressed to earning warfare qualifications and their warfare pin. You may have the shiniest degree on the planet from the most eye-wateringly impressive university, but when you roll aboard your first ship, you are useless to the CO and 2 years behind classmates, professionally. It takes a great deal of effort and determination to catch up. People 2 years junior to you will have their warfare pin, and you don’t have your first SWO deck qualification yet. This situation evens out later on, as when it’s time for shore duty, they may well be trying to fit in their post-grad option, and you’ll already have that done, and are available to do other types of interesting orders.

We had 2 USNA sponsor family midshipmen, both strong performers at USNA. Both went subs. One went to MIT for 2 years, then about 2 years of nuke pipeline and finally reported to her first boat, as, they said, the dumbest almost-LT on there compared to peers they were ranked against. The other new ensign went right to nuke pipeline and on to first boat, got sub warfare qualified right on time along with all other year year group peers. When it was time for shore duty, MIT officer went to an interesting staff assignment and the other officer attended Georgetown’s prestigious foreign policy school. Both are at exactly the same point in their careers now, their department head roles at sea. As you know from your previous thread you started, it is now performance in their assigned role and needs of the Navy which will impact their career.
 
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Capt MJ said:
The challenge with going to grad school right away is that, say, 2 years at MIT, then for a SWO nuke, going to the ship to earn a warfare pin, then another 18 months or so in the nuke power training pipeline, makes that officer about 2 years behind classmates who have progressed to earning warfare qualifications and their warfare pin. You may have the shiniest degree on the planet from the most eye-wateringly impressive university, but when you roll aboard your first ship, you are useless to the CO and 2 years behind classmates, professionally. It takes a great deal of effort and determination to catch up. People 2 years junior to you will have their warfare pin, and you don’t have your first SWO deck qualification yet. This situation evens out later on, as when it’s time for shore duty, they may well be trying to fit in their post-grad option, and you’ll already have that done, and are available to do other types of interesting orders.
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I will bring a counter recommendation or perhaps modification to what has been said thus far.
I can't caution you enough to NOT let yourself get more than a year behind classmates. I chose a year
but 11 months or 13 months could be just as appropriate. The reason is the Navy's promotion and fitness report
systems. Quite simply, say that you're two years behind your classmates and other "yeargroup mates" aboard
your ship or submarine. You're just getting to say a surface ship as an LTJG because of 2 yrs of "good deal grad
school" and you THINK that you're ahead of your classmates. Your yeargroup mates aboard ship are SWO qualified
or close to it and standing OOD underway or other key watches while you take a year to get those done. When LTJG fitreps
are written, the top watchstanders/shiphandlers/Div O's get the Pack + fitreps that they earnedwhile you're still an under instruction
non-qual and your fitrep is at best "Pack" and maybe Pack - because everyone else in your competitive group is a
full up round and you are not. Now you might say that this will balance out later because you're smart and work hard
but when you're up for real competition later, you have a so-so fitrep against lots of folks with great paper.
.
Further, when you roll from Sea Duty to Shore Duty, you MUST expect a very short shore duty because your community's
Department Head school and orders to first Dept Head tour are keyed off of your years of service for your yeargroup,
not when you finally reported to the fleet. Arrive "late" to Dept Head tour at extreme career peril because (for SWOs and Subs)
the selection board for LCDR take place during the YEARGROUP's first year as a Dept Head and you do NOT want to compete
for promotion to LCDR against sitting Dept Heads when you're still not in that job.
 
OldRetSWO said:
I will bring a counter recommendation or perhaps modification to what has been said thus far.
I can't caution you enough to NOT let yourself get more than a year behind classmates. I chose a year
but 11 months or 13 months could be just as appropriate. The reason is the Navy's promotion and fitness report
systems. Quite simply, say that you're two years behind your classmates and other "yeargroup mates" aboard
your ship or submarine. You're just getting to say a surface ship as an LTJG because of 2 yrs of "good deal grad
school" and you THINK that you're ahead of your classmates. Your yeargroup mates aboard ship are SWO qualified
or close to it and standing OOD underway or other key watches while you take a year to get those done. When LTJG fitreps
are written, the top watchstanders/shiphandlers/Div O's get the Pack + fitreps that they earnedwhile you're still an under instruction
non-qual and your fitrep is at best "Pack" and maybe Pack - because everyone else in your competitive group is a
full up round and you are not. Now you might say that this will balance out later because you're smart and work hard
but when you're up for real competition later, you have a so-so fitrep against lots of folks with great paper.
.
Further, when you roll from Sea Duty to Shore Duty, you MUST expect a very short shore duty because your community's
Department Head school and orders to first Dept Head tour are keyed off of your years of service for your yeargroup,
not when you finally reported to the fleet. Arrive "late" to Dept Head tour at extreme career peril because (for SWOs and Subs)
the selection board for LCDR take place during the YEARGROUP's first year as a Dept Head and you do NOT want to compete
for promotion to LCDR against sitting Dept Heads when you're still not in that job.
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Yep.
As proud as I am of the many of our dozens of USNA sponsor mids since the late 1990s who have had Fulbrights, Cambridge, MIT, Harvard, Oxford, etc., IGEP degrees right after USNA, all except one separated from AD as mid to senior grade LTs. Only one, a SWO. made it to LCDR and did not screen for XO/CO - just not a strong enough operational performer in their warfare specialty compared to peers.

All were fine, conscientious officers who served honorably. They were all able to get excellent jobs in the private sector with their education and Navy/Marine job experience. Their education allowed them to bring new insights to their career work and brought credit to the service and to USNA.

If you look at flag officer bios, there are certainly those who have eye-watering degrees, as well as those who went “more normal” routes to NPS and Naval War College, but likely just a tiny handful with IGEP degrees. Sustained performance in the warfare specialty in operational roles will almost always be the most impactful reason someone is pack + and scales the heights of Navy leadership roles.
 
It seems like there's no reason to go IGEP if one wants to become a flag officer. Just to be clear, if one desires to become a flag officer, doing IGEP (qualifying for it is good) is probably not a good route to take?
 
Anyone who does IGEP has the potential to go far in any endeavor, in or out of military service. For some, it is exactly the right thing to do, and they go on to fulfilling, successful lives on any number of paths. I am not going to recommend against it, ever, just advise that midshipmen weigh the pros and cons that apply to them and their goals and objectives, and proceed with their best effort.

There is no recipe to make flag or general officer. It’s the usual combo: sustained performance in every role, needs of the [service], luck, life happens.
 
bgreat said:
I have some strong academic goals for myself at the USNA (that may seem "unrealistic"): primarily they are to become a Rhodes Scholar/Marshall Scholar and to be Valedictorian of '27.
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Capt MJ said:
There is no recipe to make flag or general officer. It’s the usual combo: sustained performance in every role, needs of the [service], luck, life happens.
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OP has made multiple posts reference lofty objectives and asking what appear to be very well informed questions regarding academic and post graduate opportunities. While the forward vision and goal setting is admirable, I would caution against getting to far ahead of your skis....the mission of the Naval Academy is to develop Naval (and Marine Corps) officers, and the focus at this point is to be the best Plebe, then best Midshipman and ultimately the best junior officer you can be. This includes far more than academic achievement. CAPT MJ hits it on the head with her "sustained performance in every role..." Be flexible and open minded, take care of your troops, develop both technical and tactical proficiency, accept challenging career opportunities (and do well), and you will have a successful career.
 
I would not worry about career progression. I would take the opportunity if offered.

There are controls in place (e.g. deferring board consideration) to mitigate the career impact. But the officer must take advantage of these programs for them to be effective, and some of them just choose to roll the dice.

The degree has no bearing on professional performance, and it is still very possible for a very smart Rhodes Scholar or MIT/Harvard grad to suck at their job. There's nothing that can really help that situation--some very smart people just aren't cut out to be officers.
 
Our class Valedictorian went overseas for nearly 2 years and then went to BUDS. He rang out quickly. In this situation I would never recommend someone selected for this line to divert the pipeline. Being to train with your peers is so crucial. Being able to keep that level of fitness is hard and it’s important to not stop.

My room mate VGEP’d her entire 1/C year, Rhodes finalist, ended up with some other scholarship and got her PhD before reporting to the fleet. Although an amazing opportunity, she hated being behind her peers. We had 2 1stLts at TBS who graduated 2 years ahead of us at USNA. They didn’t regret their Masters opportunities, but they had zero operational experience until about year 3 in uniform. That is normal for a pilot, not everyone else though. It meant they had about 1 year of observed time before selection for O-3.

It’s great you have lofty goals but remember to get these things conduct, PRT, and performance grades are also required. My super smart room mate hated running, she had to work at it to keep the PRT grade to a level required for these programs. You isolate and just focus on grades, don’t expect an A in performance. It’s a hard balance, but every year Mids knock it out of the park
 
Thanks for the insight. This is just a comment from another service with limited knowledge.
(Situation, both Ensigns just graduated from USNA)

... So a SWO with a "five and dive" plan the first two years then changes plan to stay, in theory is ahead of the Ensign who is in Oxford for two years.
 
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DD1 is going to NPS in Monterey for a one year accelerated Master's degree as a Bowman Scholar. She does not feel that it will be detrimental to her development as a Naval officer. Several of her mentors at USNA in the submarine community took the same path and do not regret it. One advantage is that it sets her up for either a second Master's or Doctorate later on. Some of her fellow sub-selects in the normal scheme won't be entering the pipeline for almost six months. So the lag in actual fleet service is relatively nominal.

At this point, who knows if she will 8 and Evacuate, or stay for longer. That is a decision she will make downstream.
 
FutureAcademyDad? said:
DD1 is going to NPS in Monterey for a one year accelerated Master's degree as a Bowman Scholar. She does not feel that it will be detrimental to her development as a Naval officer. Several of her mentors at USNA in the submarine community took the same path and do not regret it. One advantage is that it sets her up for either a second Master's or Doctorate later on. Some of her fellow sub-selects in the normal scheme won't be entering the pipeline for almost six months. So the lag in actual fleet service is relatively nominal.

At this point, who knows if she will 8 and Evacuate, or stay for longer. That is a decision she will make downstream.
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At this point, I'm staying neutral with DS '26 regarding branches. He talked about SWO before. Sometime this year, maybe a visit to Spec Ops Museum in Fayetteville, NC will change all that.
 
severn said:
Thanks for the insight. This is just a comment from another service with limited knowledge.
(Situation, both Ensigns just graduated from USNA)

... So a SWO with a "five and dive" plan the first two years then changes plan to stay, in theory is ahead of the Ensign who is in Oxford for two years.
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Think about it, that Ensign at Oxford stays in the year group and reports to the ship as a JG. At Fitrep time, say there are 4 LTJGs aboard, one who just came out of the training command and is in their first couple of months of SWO qual, their watch station will be JOOW or JOOD and they're just learning to "drive". The other JGs who came straight to the fleet are at least standing OOD and/or EOOW, making necessary calls to the CO in the middle of the night, has conned the ship in and out of port, etc. As a longtime SWO, I can tell you that it would be very hard to rank the new, unqualled person ahead of the proven performers.

Many mentors that Mids listen to are LTs on post Division Officer tours at USNA or elsewhere and have never had to do those difficult FITREP decisions as they rate 5 or even 10 officers competing for the best FITREPS. The Navy's Officer systems bases much on the Officer FITREPS which has ratings against peers at its heart.

My first full DivO tour was on a Nuclear cruiser which had nuke and non-nuke officers. The career path of the day had nukes going to the ship AFTER Nuc power school, prototype and 4 to 6 months of SWOS so most were close to LTJG before arriving and they all had to spend months in the nuc plant upon arrival BEFORE starting any topside quals. I was there for a couple of FITREP cycles and even though the CO and XO were both Nucs and certainly understood the career challenges of the school delays, the top rated LTJG and LT on the ship were non-Nucs who just had more real nautical experience. When I achieved my SWO qual I was at least a year ahead of the Nucs that were in my year group that were aboard.
 
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Ok ...
Thanks. The reading here I understood but in a haze since I'm from another service. With DS '26 talking about SWO, the same level of enthusiasm can be compared to cooking a meatloaf or washing those plebe whites. As an outsider, I think boring is better and relax as a SWO. Maybe he got this all figured out as a 3/C. This is the same kid who at 2 years old would pick up a bowl of peanuts, throw it, and watch my reaction.
 
DS is likely Shoemaker scholarship candidate. He has considered pros and cons.

Not my decision to make. He loves
his area of study for sure.

I leave the nuances and details to him. I just ask that he let us know when to show for special moments.
 
Here's another thought into the equation -- when I was done with 4 years of USNA (and one of NAPS), I was good a ready to get out of the academic environment and start doing real things. Same with Law School. Some people love the academic environment, but I tolerated it as a means to getting to what I really wanted to do. ( I still get antsy when I have to sit through my annual continuing ed programs !)
 
And another thought into the equation... Sometimes you do not even have a choice. My son is heading to Pensacola and is being directed to take remote classes with NPS in July until flight school actually starts. I'm not even sure if he is interested in the majors being offered. But he is very go-with-the-flow. Needs of the Navy!
 
The advice above from the military folks are in line with the advice my son got from the majority of professors/military at USNA. He took it and preferred to wait on his graduate studies.
 
brewmeist said:
And another thought into the equation... Sometimes you do not even have a choice. My son is heading to Pensacola and is being directed to take remote classes with NPS in July until flight school actually starts. I'm not even sure if he is interested in the majors being offered. But he is very go-with-the-flow. Needs of the Navy!
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That's what the plan is for all 2023 SNAs because the wait is simply too long, and they don't want 1,000 ensigns to just sit on the beach all day while still getting full paychecks for many months like my class did.

My SNA NIFE wait turned out to be just under 10 months after checking into Pensacola, about average for right now. Some friends waited 8, some will still be waiting after 12 months. I know of several ensigns who checked into Pensacola in November 2022, they recently got an email saying they won't class up until at least January 2024.

So if any flight students are considering a graduate degree (not just courses), it's definitely a good time to get one because chances are you'll finish a 1-year Master's, and your peer group still won't have started NIFE
 
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