Ivy League NROTC Comparison

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ADC67

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Last night, I was fortunate enough to be accepted to both Yale and Columbia. This is going to prove to be a very hard choice for me because they both offer excellent opportunities. I'm hoping some of you guys could provide some insight in ROTC to maybe be a "tie-breaker" between the two school.
 
Congrats. Briefly, I would recommend your choice be based more on the overall school and the major you intend to study vs the ROTC program.

Columbia - is a cross-town program for NROTC for 4 local colleges - you would travel to SUNY Maritime College in the Throgs Neck for many of your NROTC activities. Columbia banned NROTC in the late 1960s and just reinstated a program about 10 years ago.

Yale is an on-campus NROTC program. I think the only one in CT (I'm sure others will correct me if I am mis-stating). Check out their FB page for a good overview.

Both campuses are not in a good neighborhood (Morningside Heights and New Haven).

Just an honest word on any ROTC at these campuses or in the neighboring communities. Both schools are "just a scootch" political, so you may experience some negative comments/ isolation from your peers/ community. in bad neighborhoods some folks have an issue with authority/ military/ police and there is a conflating of these in people's opinions. You be you, and be proud/ humble, But just be aware that political activism is a sport that many excel at on these campuses.
Good luck.
 
+1 to @Herman_Snerd - choose the college to fit. You have an embarrassment of options, well done.

A counterpoint to the environment comment, I think it is overdone:

1.) realistically, a high portion of enlisted are probably from a neighborhood with challenges like those around the campuses; most people who attend Yale and Columbia are not from those circumstances. Welcome to the world you will live in for 8 years. I would call it a preview, to the extent this stereotype is accurate.

2.) On-campus environment, are some Yalies hostile to the military? Maybe, you probably weren't going to be friends with them in any case. But if you read Thomas Rick and Nathaniel Fick (and you should) you'll see sentiment: ROTC on campus doesn't militarize the college, it liberalizes the military. You'll be a representative of the USA amongst people who will like us and who want to kill us. Again, it's a preview. The current military/non-military divide is a national tragedy, you have the opportunity to bridge it.
 
+1 to above. Pick the school. Although there will be differences between the programs, overall they are the same. Same classes, same PT, same training. There might possibly be more training opportunities at one over the other but nothing that will make a real difference; especially since they both have nearby naval facilities of one sort or another.
 
Reach out to both NROTC programs and ask to be connected with a current midshipman, preferably in your intended major.

Yale - one of the original 6. Lots of history and tradition. Yale NROTC Leadership Conference - besides the leadership conference hosted at Notre Dame, this might be one of the premier NROTC leadership conferences based on guest speakers they attract.
 
Congratulations! Agree with recommendations above.

I have a relative currently at Yale (not ROTC) who loves it. A few years ago I toured both campuses with a prospective student. If you get a chance to visit Yale, be sure to stop by the main library as well as the rare book library. Both are amazing buildings and fascinating stories about the design.
 
Kbinspections said:
Visit Yale, very impressive.
Columbia is also nice but NYC is headed in the wrong direction. Also a virus hot spot and will be for a while.
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I agree about Yale. Of all the campuses I visited with my kids, Yale was my favorite. And I really like the housing set up they do. Oh, and they have food trucks!
 
My DS is in a similar (fortunate) dilemma, although in his case it is MIT or Yale. We had plans to visit both campuses and finish in Annapolis where he was scheduled for a CVW at USNA, with the hopes that one of those environments would really “speak to him”; however, all of that has of course been cancelled. So outside of USNA, this is going to be a sight unseen scenario. He is all over the websites and message boards...so all of your comments here and on other threads are helpful. Thanks.
 
One man's opinion:
Yale > Columbia (both obviously very elite)
On-campus program > cross-town (don't underestimate the logistics and time value of this)

Thus, unless Columbia has a particular program, or excels in a particular program, that you want over and above Yale; or you have a great desire to attend college in NYC (not something that would have appealed to me, but that's for you to decide), then I'd say Yale without a doubt.
 
Proud_Pops said:
My DS is in a similar (fortunate) dilemma, although in his case it is MIT or Yale. We had plans to visit both campuses and finish in Annapolis where he was scheduled for a CVW at USNA, with the hopes that one of those environments would really “speak to him”; however, all of that has of course been cancelled. So outside of USNA, this is going to be a sight unseen scenario. He is all over the websites and message boards...so all of your comments here and on other threads are helpful. Thanks.
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It really is a fortunate dilemma. MIT was also one of my top choices going into decisions, but I was unfortunately rejected. For Columbia, I am drawn to the location and it's reputation for investment banking internships/ placement. Yale comes with the prestige, and a possibly less up-tight student body. It is definitely going to be hard to pick one.
 
Very respectfully and constructively, let's agree that things may be less up-tight at Yale than Columbia. But IMO that's like comparing two oranges and saying one is more orange in color than the other:) Please just know there is no shortage of activism and up-tightedness at Yale. It may not be as in your face as other campuses, but like an iceburg vs a mountain ( mostly beneath vs above the surface) it's there. I just recommend if interested to read "The New Intolerance of Student Activism" in the Atlantic. Research Yale activism. Learn about how their university panels adjudicate complaints at Yale and the power those panels have. Know that it for some is a right of passage there to drive the end to someone else's program, or even presence on that campus (like student protests at Columbia did to ban NROTC in 1968, for more than 40 years). Watch youtube vidoes of professors being confronted and yelled at. And while it shouldn't discourage you, you should just go in eyes open. No irony lost on their being the Yale Bulldogs - folks latch onto an issue there and get it in their jaws and you couldn't pry them off with a proverbial crowbar.

If it were my child I would recommend Yale. In fact it's my own DD's top pursuit. I agree facing this issues is OK. I have no (bull)dog in this fight. I just believe information is powerful/ helpful/ useful when driving good preparation and decisions. I trust someone talented enough to get into these programs can hear the viewpoint and that it may help them, even if disagreeing to parts of it.

For a finance focused person I can't argue with Columbia - good news is you have a win-win choice ahead of you. Congrats on that.

At some of the Philadelphia ROTC consortium's schools,, cadets/ midshipmen do not wear their uniforms into the community to avoid retaliation/ confrontation - they told us it's for safety - at other schools it varies. I think it's good we're sharing opinions and points/ counterpoints in hopes it may help this and other board participants. Good luck.
 
I've seen this uniform danger topic on other sites as well, but no actual evidence or reports. As a civilian family in a coastal "bright blue" state from a demo where very few of our family friends are military adjacent; I feel like if there was a prejudice I would have seen it/heard it in action in my 50+ years.

I accompanied my DS from NSI to O'hare and I saw nothing but deference and honor. To the point of absurdity, DS is a volunteer and three separate people/families stopped him in his dress whites and thanked him for his "service". Which at that point extended to fighting off pink eye during induction and breaking up (poorly) with his HS girlfriend pre-induction.

Dressing in the community might actually help with closing the civilian/military gap. The bigger issue I see is a large percentage of Americans don't know anyone in the military. This bad for civilian, military and our republic.

And let us not forget, that in Philly; they throw batteries and boo Santa Claus. :)
 
My DS is at an Ivy and was worried about fellow student reactions to the military and it has not been a problem at all. Generally his fellow students are impressed with his commitment. Definitely would be good to talk to a MIDN at each school before deciding. My DS did that and it was very beneficial to help him decide between the two Ivys he was considering.
 
Choosing between Yale NROTC and Columbia NROTC is an easy choice, and I have a unique background to be able to help you make this choice.

I graduated from Columbia College/ University and my wife has a PhD from Columbia University. Our oldest daughter is a sophomore at Yale NROTC.

My swim coach at Columbia had the first Columbia NROTC graduate in many years (one of his swimmers). He could not believe the commute and time it took his NROTC swimmer each week.

My daughter, on the other hand, lives at Yale where her many of her NROTC activities are close to her dorm and walkable. Yale does not pull from any consortium colleges so if you are in the Yale NROTC unit you have to attend Yale. This promotes much camaraderie amongst cadets.

While Columbia's core curriculum and education, in my opinion, is superior to Yale's (or Yale's lack of a core curriculum), Yale has many more positives for NROTC students than Columbia's.

In going to Columbia NROTC, you would have a very low probability to complete the NROTC requirements and would likely drop out of the NROTC. Conversely, at the Yale NROTC unit, you would have a very high probability to complete the NROTC requirements and become an Officer. Understanding NROTC attrition is key if you want to become an Officer.

If my child had the Yale NROTC or Columbia NROTC decision, I would advise them to go to Yale 10 out of 10 times. This is an easy choice with no disrespect to my alma mater.

Congratulations and good luck on your decision!
 
Torero_dad said:
I've seen this uniform danger topic on other sites as well, but no actual evidence or reports. As a civilian family in a coastal "bright blue" state from a demo where very few of our family friends are military adjacent; I feel like if there was a prejudice I would have seen it/heard it in action in my 50+ years.

I accompanied my DS from NSI to O'hare and I saw nothing but deference and honor. To the point of absurdity, DS is a volunteer and three separate people/families stopped him in his dress whites and thanked him for his "service". Which at that point extended to fighting off pink eye during induction and breaking up (poorly) with his HS girlfriend pre-induction.

Dressing in the community might actually help with closing the civilian/military gap. The bigger issue I see is a large percentage of Americans don't know anyone in the military. This bad for civilian, military and our republic.

And let us not forget, that in Philly; they throw batteries and boo Santa Claus. :)
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First - enjoyed the point about Philadelphians throwing batteries and ice/ snowballs too at Santa -so, so true.

Second - I too am blessed almost exclusively with direct pleasant interactions about anyone in my family while in uniform. Myself and DS included. well, other than watching my uncle be jeered at during a parade after returning from serving in Vietnam in the 70s. Most people are good people - proven time and time again.

I respect varying opinions and skepticism on uniform danger. Just will share more specifics - Many ROTC participants wear their uniform all day on specific days - BDUs, dress whites when there is a change of command or ceremony , khaki/ polo combinations on a specific schedule - often multiple days per month. At Temple University, part of a philadelphia ROTC consortium, they reportedly stopped doing this, because there were incidents both on campus and in the community. Also search youtube if interested and you can see incidents, very unfortunate ugly incidents at restaurants, Arby's, Walmart, where a service member being in uniform set off confrontations. *saw a few stolen valor clips there too, which always amazes me, but that's another topic I guess for another day. the philly data I heard straight from that consortium's ROO. but others may comment to say that's now changed or whatever.

Alright, back to the rock pile with my proverbial hammer I go - have a great day.
 
Proud_Pops said:
My DS is in a similar (fortunate) dilemma, although in his case it is MIT or Yale. We had plans to visit both campuses and finish in Annapolis where he was scheduled for a CVW at USNA, with the hopes that one of those environments would really “speak to him”; however, all of that has of course been cancelled. So outside of USNA, this is going to be a sight unseen scenario. He is all over the websites and message boards...so all of your comments here and on other threads are helpful. Thanks.
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MY DS is also MIT or Yale. AFROTC Type I and considering Physics/Math. What considerations does he have about them? My DS might ultimately want to go to the USNA, but I'm hoping MIT or Yale can give it good competition.
 
MA Homeschool Dad said:
MY DS is also MIT or Yale. AFROTC Type I and considering Physics/Math. What considerations does he have about them? My DS might ultimately want to go to the USNA, but I'm hoping MIT or Yale can give it good competition.
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First, congrats to your son!
I have a kid at MIT and visited Yale twice with two kids. But MIT is a great college, excellent award winning detachment, and a fantastic place to go to a college.
Yale and MIT offer different atmospheres. Yale is a very cool campus (especially the colleges where kids live and a great assortment of food trucks), but in a small town with some iffy areas around (though safe).
MIT is in Cambridge/Boston which has an urban feel but it definitely also offers a campus feel. And Boston is a great place to go to school - 1 in 5 people are college students, kids get an urban feel by going out for pizza safely at 1 am (not something you can do at USNA), taking the T to a museum/restaurants/other schools, etc.
As for detachments, MIT has won top small school detachment over the last few years. They also host Harvard, Tufts, and Wellesley so it is filled with high achieving cadets.
MIT is ranked in many polls as the #1 school in the country/world but Yale is obviously right up there. Fantastic programs that will offer your son a great experience with excellent education and diverse student/cultural thoughts (good opportunties to meet peers who think differently and have debates over beers :)). As respects Physics/Math, MIT might be the better place for that major though. This site offers good info on colleges and their program rankings: https://www.topuniversities.com/uni...ubject-rankings/top-universities-physics-2020
I offer all this in my humble opinion. But this is a choice where your son really needs to visit the campuses and see which setting he prefers, especially if he is going to be comparing to USNA and the student lifestyle there. In the end, my kids went with the normal college experience over the academy style. It's a huge difference that your son really needs to think about. I know we have a diversity of thought on this board, but I think you should switch your last comment to: will USNA give MIT and Yale good competition. :)
Good luck!
- feel free to message me if you have any other questions on the above
 
unkown1961 said:
First, congrats to your son!
I have a kid at MIT and visited Yale twice with two kids. But MIT is a great college, excellent award winning detachment, and a fantastic place to go to a college.
Yale and MIT offer different atmospheres. Yale is a very cool campus (especially the colleges where kids live and a great assortment of food trucks), but in a small town with some iffy areas around (though safe).
MIT is in Cambridge/Boston which has an urban feel but it definitely also offers a campus feel. And Boston is a great place to go to school - 1 in 5 people are college students, kids get an urban feel by going out for pizza safely at 1 am (not something you can do at USNA), taking the T to a museum/restaurants/other schools, etc.
As for detachments, MIT has won top small school detachment over the last few years. They also host Harvard, Tufts, and Wellesley so it is filled with high achieving cadets.
MIT is ranked in many polls as the #1 school in the country/world but Yale is obviously right up there. Fantastic programs that will offer your son a great experience with excellent education and diverse student/cultural thoughts (good opportunties to meet peers who think differently and have debates over beers :)). As respects Physics/Math, MIT might be the better place for that major though. This site offers good info on colleges and their program rankings: https://www.topuniversities.com/uni...ubject-rankings/top-universities-physics-2020
I offer all this in my humble opinion. But this is a choice where your son really needs to visit the campuses and see which setting he prefers, especially if he is going to be comparing to USNA and the student lifestyle there. In the end, my kids went with the normal college experience over the academy style. It's a huge difference that your son really needs to think about. I know we have a diversity of thought on this board, but I think you should switch your last comment to: will USNA give MIT and Yale good competition. :)
Good luck!
- feel free to message me if you have any other questions on the above
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Much appreciated! Didn't know MIT keeps winning the small school detachment awards. That's really good to know.

Personally, I prefer AFROTC at a great school like RPI or MIT. But, the kid did a week at USNA and might have fallen in love. We need to deeply investigate the pros/cons of a SA vs ROTC for a STEM major, long term. In a nutshell, my understanding is if your whole career will be military, choose the SAs. But, you would think a Physics or Computer Science major at a great tech school would have just as much opportunity in the military, though maybe a different slant -- more R&D and less top brass? Certainly cool with that. Will stay in touch as we have questions!
 
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