Longer service obligation for SA grads under review

Why? I have commanded at echelon. I had Majors waiting in line to KD. It was the same for CPTs waiting to command. There was no shortage and there is no shortage.

I wholeheartedly agree company command is the most important and formative position in our Army. But, the notion academy grads should be required to stay for the experience has all kinds of challenges....some place have CPTs lined up waiting. Mandatory company command before they exit?

Honestly, this whole thing is a solution looking for a problem in my opinion. But, enjoying the thoughtful discussion.

They should only command a company if they want to. But they should be staying in the Active Army longer than 5 years. The Army is not getting a return on its investment compared to what it gets for ROTC dollars.
 
West Point is having no problem attracting top talent. Northern Virginia Districts have ten elite candidates per district (only 2 or 3 get in). They should start increasing the commitment length to align what is best for the Army with the current market demand.

NOVA is a unique district since that area is littered with military/federal government workers, making it inherently more competitive than say a state like North Dakota due to the congressional nomination process. It's similar to the district around Annapolis since the Naval Academy is so close.

Is confining SA grads with more time doing things for OER bullets really the best use for the military or the grads themselves? The military is too restrictive in ways, doesn't allow the opportunity for people to flex their creative muscles or become true subject master experts in their craft. The world we live in today is built off data and information. The military uses outdated equipment and processes that's not in line with the private sector.

Tell me, why should the head of the cyber branch be someone who's been in armor or aviation their whole career and doesn't have the slightest clue around a command line? Oh yeah, it's because of how the military promotes its officers and those who are competent in a desirable skill have long since taken off. I don't see orthopedic surgeons or dentists really sticking it out for the 20 years, for instance. Many of them actual resign their commissions so there's no chance of them getting called back and taken away from their families and private practice. If you own your own practice you don't want to get deployed as that's bad for business.

It's funny, sitting through TAPS the DoL lady asked us which group of military members had the hardest time transitioning. I hit it on the nose with senior officers. She hands out her contact information to all military members who go through her class and mentioned how there was a Navy 3 star who kept saying he was worth 300K to F500 companies. That's probably what he was making when all-combined at the time, but it's not realistic for the private sector. There's no such thing as specializing in "leadership". It's all about being competent in something as a specialist and then moving up. The military's system of promoting officers leaves these senior officers sacrificing a lot of their potential, or encourages those with competitive skillsets to leave for greener pastures.

You also have to consider, most people retire from the military when they are in their 40s or early 50s. That's when those in the private sector are at their highest earning years. To get your income cut down to 1/3 at that point (pension is really 1/3 of income when considering no BAH/BAS. This doesn't include VA disability of course), with potentially a family/kids to get through college is daunting. And then to enter the workforce and work your way back up at a private sector company. Just because you were an O6 doesn't mean you're entitled to a high position at a company. Google isn't going to make you a senior product manager or director because of that.

I think the service academy grad who leaves service at the 5-8 year mark is probably the best positioned for a clean break from service. Typically they won't have kids at that point, although they may be married. They're late twenties/early thirties which is certainly young enough to career pivot. They could get an MBA from a Top 20 school for next to nothing thanks to the GI Bill, and then enter either a F100 company or go onto investment banking at a bulge bracket or management consulting at MBB. Plus there's other great professions like legal, medical, etc. that can be covered thanks to the GI Bill.

I'm proud to have served and to be a Service Academy graduate, but I saw a lot less than stellar leadership during my time in. I mean, I was an EE/Computer Science guy too and saw how limited organizationally we were for top tech talent. The economy is heavily built off tech nowadays, and techies respect competence and flatter organizations than the rigidity that is the military echelon.

I'd rather capitalize on my skills and choose where I live rather than getting told where to go. Also the system really doesn't incentivize innovation or hard charging. I'm not getting a bonus no matter how hard I work, and the choice job I want may not even be available due to the billet system. I may not even get a decision on what I do, for instance. Why would I sacrifice my potential which could come back and bite my family in the butt financially?

Particularly with the blended retirement system, it's best to be a reservist with the right skill sets. There's no doubt the pension is handy later in life (70s on), but a SA grad sacrifices too much earning and career potential staying in the military for 20.
 
Why? I have commanded at echelon. I had Majors waiting in line to KD. It was the same for CPTs waiting to command. There was no shortage and there is no shortage.

I wholeheartedly agree company command is the most important and formative position in our Army. But, the notion academy grads should be required to stay for the experience has all kinds of challenges....some place have CPTs lined up waiting. Mandatory company command before they exit?

Honestly, this whole thing is a solution looking for a problem in my opinion. But, enjoying the thoughtful discussion.

They should only command a company if they want to. But they should be staying in the Active Army longer than 5 years. The Army is not getting a return on its investment compared to what it gets for ROTC dollars.

How many years gets the ROI you are seeking? Why not reduce ROTC grad commitments?
 
Why? I have commanded at echelon. I had Majors waiting in line to KD. It was the same for CPTs waiting to command. There was no shortage and there is no shortage.

I wholeheartedly agree company command is the most important and formative position in our Army. But, the notion academy grads should be required to stay for the experience has all kinds of challenges....some place have CPTs lined up waiting. Mandatory company command before they exit?

Honestly, this whole thing is a solution looking for a problem in my opinion. But, enjoying the thoughtful discussion.

They should only command a company if they want to. But they should be staying in the Active Army longer than 5 years. The Army is not getting a return on its investment compared to what it gets for ROTC dollars.

How many years gets the ROI you are seeking? Why not reduce ROTC grad commitments?

ROTC commitments are already shorter AD commitments than a SA, depending on how much schooling was helped be paid for. They typically only have 3-4 years AD requirement.

Because I didn’t come up through that process and I’m curious, does a ROTC scholarship guarantee AD the same way that a SA graduate is guaranteed?
 
does a ROTC scholarship guarantee AD the same way that a SA graduate is guaranteed?

Army ROTC scholarship status does not guarantee active duty, unless graduating from a senior military college (and approved by the Army PMS). Thus Army ROTC contracted cadets must compete on the OML for AD status. Those who don't rank high enough will usually draw reserve or NG.

NROTC, NROTC/MO and AFROTC scholarships generally result in AD.
 
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Why? I have commanded at echelon. I had Majors waiting in line to KD. It was the same for CPTs waiting to command. There was no shortage and there is no shortage.

I wholeheartedly agree company command is the most important and formative position in our Army. But, the notion academy grads should be required to stay for the experience has all kinds of challenges....some place have CPTs lined up waiting. Mandatory company command before they exit?

Honestly, this whole thing is a solution looking for a problem in my opinion. But, enjoying the thoughtful discussion.

They should only command a company if they want to. But they should be staying in the Active Army longer than 5 years. The Army is not getting a return on its investment compared to what it gets for ROTC dollars.

How many years gets the ROI you are seeking? Why not reduce ROTC grad commitments?

ROTC commitments are already shorter AD commitments than a SA, depending on how much schooling was helped be paid for. They typically only have 3-4 years AD requirement.

Because I didn’t come up through that process and I’m curious, does a ROTC scholarship guarantee AD the same way that a SA graduate is guaranteed?

Perhaps they should be even shorter, or mandate AD time for ROTC scholarships? It's quite an investment to make for young men and women to go serve in their state's guard.
 
Why? I have commanded at echelon. I had Majors waiting in line to KD. It was the same for CPTs waiting to command. There was no shortage and there is no shortage.

I wholeheartedly agree company command is the most important and formative position in our Army. But, the notion academy grads should be required to stay for the experience has all kinds of challenges....some place have CPTs lined up waiting. Mandatory company command before they exit?

Honestly, this whole thing is a solution looking for a problem in my opinion. But, enjoying the thoughtful discussion.

They should only command a company if they want to. But they should be staying in the Active Army longer than 5 years. The Army is not getting a return on its investment compared to what it gets for ROTC dollars.

How many years gets the ROI you are seeking? Why not reduce ROTC grad commitments?

ROTC commitments are already shorter AD commitments than a SA, depending on how much schooling was helped be paid for. They typically only have 3-4 years AD requirement.

Because I didn’t come up through that process and I’m curious, does a ROTC scholarship guarantee AD the same way that a SA graduate is guaranteed?

Perhaps they should be even shorter, or mandate AD time for ROTC scholarships? It's quite an investment to make for young men and women to go serve in their state's guard.


Don't reserve officers have to spend 6 yrs drilling vs 4 years for active duty?
 
Thanks AROTC-dad for the explanation. Maybe we start looking at that then if we want more time out of investment?

Why? I have commanded at echelon. I had Majors waiting in line to KD. It was the same for CPTs waiting to command. There was no shortage and there is no shortage.

I wholeheartedly agree company command is the most important and formative position in our Army. But, the notion academy grads should be required to stay for the experience has all kinds of challenges....some place have CPTs lined up waiting. Mandatory company command before they exit?

Honestly, this whole thing is a solution looking for a problem in my opinion. But, enjoying the thoughtful discussion.

They should only command a company if they want to. But they should be staying in the Active Army longer than 5 years. The Army is not getting a return on its investment compared to what it gets for ROTC dollars.

How many years gets the ROI you are seeking? Why not reduce ROTC grad commitments?

ROTC commitments are already shorter AD commitments than a SA, depending on how much schooling was helped be paid for. They typically only have 3-4 years AD requirement.

Because I didn’t come up through that process and I’m curious, does a ROTC scholarship guarantee AD the same way that a SA graduate is guaranteed?

Perhaps they should be even shorter, or mandate AD time for ROTC scholarships? It's quite an investment to make for young men and women to go serve in their state's guard.


Don't reserve officers have to spend 6 yrs drilling vs 4 years for active duty?

From what I’ve seen, the contracts generally end up same length overall. It’s just the breakdown of AD v IRR. Eight years total. Five AD, three IRR (no drill) for SA grads. When you’re inactive reserves, you’re a name on a sheet that can be called if necessary but you don’t drill
 
Perhaps they should be even shorter, or mandate AD time for ROTC scholarships? It's quite an investment to make for young men and women to go serve in their state's guard.

They take that investment into account by requiring an 8 year commitment to drilling in the Reserves/NG.
AROTC does mandate AD time, the difference is that they set a number needed for AD every year, once they fill that mission then they assign the cadets that do not make the cutoff for AD to the Reserves/NG, Every year there are a number of cadets that request Reserves/NG, that will determine the number that will be forced Reserves/NG. If they do not have enough to fill the AD mission then they will deny the application to Reserves/NG by some cadets and they will be placed on AD. AROTC currently commissions nearly 5000 new officers each year meaning there are almost always enough that request AD to fill the AD mission. The AD mission has been around the 3000 mark for the past few years, about 3 times the number of WP commissions each year.

Not every AROTC cadet gets a 4 year scholarship, a large number get a 3 year and many a 2 year. Scholarships are for either tuition or R&B so they do not get the full ride compared to WP. Given that the total dollars spent considering not all scholarships are for the full 4 years, the Army gets a good return on investment with the 4 year commitment considering they have a higher retention rate and commission the largest number of Army officer per year.

Don't reserve officers have to spend 6 yrs drilling vs 4 years for active duty?

The service obligation for those that commission to the Reserves/National Guard from AROTC is 8 years drilling.
 
Perhaps they should be even shorter, or mandate AD time for ROTC scholarships? It's quite an investment to make for young men and women to go serve in their state's guard.

They take that investment into account by requiring an 8 year commitment to drilling in the Reserves/NG.
AROTC does mandate AD time, the difference is that they set a number needed for AD every year, once they fill that mission then they assign the cadets that do not make the cutoff for AD to the Reserves/NG, Every year there are a number of cadets that request Reserves/NG, that will determine the number that will be forced Reserves/NG. If they do not have enough to fill the AD mission then they will deny the application to Reserves/NG by some cadets and they will be placed on AD. AROTC currently commissions nearly 5000 new officers each year meaning there are almost always enough that request AD to fill the AD mission. The AD mission has been around the 3000 mark for the past few years, about 3 times the number of WP commissions each year.

Not every AROTC cadet gets a 4 year scholarship, a large number get a 3 year and many a 2 year. Scholarships are for either tuition or R&B so they do not get the full ride compared to WP. Given that the total dollars spent considering not all scholarships are for the full 4 years, the Army gets a good return on investment with the 4 year commitment considering they have a higher retention rate and commission the largest number of Army officer per year.

Don't reserve officers have to spend 6 yrs drilling vs 4 years for active duty?

The service obligation for those that commission to the Reserves/National Guard from AROTC is 8 years drilling.
I’ve never really understood this about the Army ROTC program. Why are so many forced into the Reserve Component when practically all graduates from other services’ ROTC programs end up on active duty? I can’t speak for the Navy but in Air Force ROTC you practically have to beg to be placed into the reserve component. You’re basically guaranteed of going on active duty. Does the Army literally just offer anyone a contract in the ROTC program, so they’re numbers are inflated? Even during the drawdown around 2014, practically all AFROTC graduates were going active duty.
 
Why? I have commanded at echelon. I had Majors waiting in line to KD. It was the same for CPTs waiting to command. There was no shortage and there is no shortage.

I wholeheartedly agree company command is the most important and formative position in our Army. But, the notion academy grads should be required to stay for the experience has all kinds of challenges....some place have CPTs lined up waiting. Mandatory company command before they exit?

Honestly, this whole thing is a solution looking for a problem in my opinion. But, enjoying the thoughtful discussion.

They should only command a company if they want to. But they should be staying in the Active Army longer than 5 years. The Army is not getting a return on its investment compared to what it gets for ROTC dollars.

How many years gets the ROI you are seeking? Why not reduce ROTC grad commitments?

ROTC commitments are already shorter AD commitments than a SA, depending on how much schooling was helped be paid for. They typically only have 3-4 years AD requirement.

Because I didn’t come up through that process and I’m curious, does a ROTC scholarship guarantee AD the same way that a SA graduate is guaranteed?

Perhaps they should be even shorter, or mandate AD time for ROTC scholarships? It's quite an investment to make for young men and women to go serve in their state's guard.
ROTC should increase the service requirement until the quality of applicants drops off.
 
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ROTC should increase the service requirement until the quality of applicants drops off.

They already do that...in a way.

The Army decides each year how many scholarships they will offer, how many will be 4 year and how many will be 3 year, some cadets go through the entire 4 years of ROTC without a scholarship while many Join the NC and complete ROTC as a SMP cadet.

A non scholarship cadet that commissions through AROTC has a 3 year AD/5yr IRR obligation, the only money they receive is the stipend for their last two years in college, not a bad ROI for the Army. If a cadet accepts any scholarship, 4yr, 3yr or 2 yr, they have the 4yr AD/4yr IRR obligation or the 8yr Reserve/NG drilling obligation.

During the mid 2000's they were throwing 4 years scholarships at cadets, as time went on they have decreased the number of 4 year and increased the 3 year scholarships. Basically lowering the number of scholarships until the quality of applicants drop off.
 
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’ve never really understood this about the Army ROTC program. Why are so many forced into the Reserve Component when practically all graduates from other services’ ROTC programs end up on active duty? I can’t speak for the Navy but in Air Force ROTC you practically have to beg to be placed into the reserve component. You’re basically guaranteed of going on active duty. Does the Army literally just offer anyone a contract in the ROTC program, so they’re numbers are inflated? Even during the drawdown around 2014, practically all AFROTC graduates were going active duty.

The Army commissions much larger number of officers through AROTC then either NROTC and AFROTC. The Army has a much larger Reserve and National Guard force that requires a certain number of new LT's each year. There are scholarships for AROTC cadets that require them to fulfill their obligation in the Reserves/NG. Without the pipeline of new officers for the Reserves/NG through ROTC neither would be able to make their mission. The Navy and AF does not have such an issue so those that commission through NROTC and AFROTC are able to go straight to AD. Like I mentioned above, the Army commissions around 5000 new officers each year, a percentage of those are needed to fill the Reserves/NG mission each year.
 
’ve never really understood this about the Army ROTC program. Why are so many forced into the Reserve Component when practically all graduates from other services’ ROTC programs end up on active duty? I can’t speak for the Navy but in Air Force ROTC you practically have to beg to be placed into the reserve component. You’re basically guaranteed of going on active duty. Does the Army literally just offer anyone a contract in the ROTC program, so they’re numbers are inflated? Even during the drawdown around 2014, practically all AFROTC graduates were going active duty.

The Army commissions much larger number of officers through AROTC then either NROTC and AFROTC. The Army has a much larger Reserve and National Guard force that requires a certain number of new LT's each year. There are scholarships for AROTC cadets that require them to fulfill their obligation in the Reserves/NG. Without the pipeline of new officers for the Reserves/NG through ROTC neither would be able to make their mission. The Navy and AF does not have such an issue so those that commission through NROTC and AFROTC are able to go straight to AD. Like I mentioned above, the Army commissions around 5000 new officers each year, a percentage of those are needed to fill the Reserves/NG mission each year.
The size of the Army explains some of it, but the Air Force reserve component is also quite large and somehow makes ends meet. It would be interesting to know just when they Army started using ROTC as a major contributor to their Reserve Force, because it wasn’t always that way, especially during Vietnam.
 
I wonder when they site that those commissioned through ROTC stay in past their initial obligation if they are taking into account the large number of ROTC cadets that signed an ADSO to help get the branch they want. Every year there is a large number that sign the ADSO to add an additional 3 years to their obligation to up their chance of getting their preferred branch. This means that there are a large number of officers that will be staying in for 7 years. If you factor those ADSO's into the equation then it would make sense that the retention percentage rate for ROTC commissioned officers would be higher. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but didn't WP begin to offer the BRASDO option.

Another factor could be the Branch Detail, there is a large number of cadets that commission with a branch detail. After they complete the first 3 or so years in their detailed branch they move to their selected branch, if they want to go to that branches BOLC and Career Course then they need to add additional service obligation years. This probably increases the retention percentage rate as well.
 
The size of the Army explains some of it, but the Air Force reserve component is also quite large and somehow makes ends meet. It would be interesting to know just when they Army started using ROTC as a major contributor to their Reserve Force, because it wasn’t always that way, especially during Vietnam.

Actually ROTC used to commission only Reserve officers, it's part of their name, Reserve Officer Training Course. Even during Vietnam they were commissioned as Reserve officers, during the war these officers were usually called to AD but they were still considered Reserve officers. When they got to the point of being eligible for Captain they had to apply to the Regular Army, most did not get accepted and went back or stayed in the Reserve. It wasn't til much later that Congress changed that and now all ROTC commissioned officers are Regular officers.

As far as the size of the Army Reserve/NG and the ANG/AF Reserves. The Army has 527,578 Reserve/NG members, the Air Force has 174,765 ANG/AF Reserves. That 352,813 difference requires a more robust commissioning source.
 
Solutions looking for problems...

I hope you don't think that because of what I've posted that I believe that the SA obligation should be increased across the board, personally I think that 5 years sounds about fair.

The Army as well as the other branches already have addressed the obligation issue with certain branches or jobs (sorry if I don't use the correct terminology for the other services). An AF and Navy pilot already have an increased obligation, Army AV and EOD have a longer obligation. Army WOFT is in the process of increasing it's obligation from 6 to 8 years. I agree with you, they seem to be coming up with a blanket solution for a problem they don't seem to have yet. If say the Army finds that it's having trouble retaining officers for Co. Command in Infantry then that can look at increasing the obligation for Infantry like they do with other branches, the same can work with any branch or job where retention is lacking. Increasing the entire obligation for SA's seems a little overkill to me.

Of course the military could always try and fix the multitude of issues it has that results in many officers and enlisted as well saying "I'm done with this crap" and simply getting out when their obligation is over. We can dream can't we?
 
It wasn't til much later that Congress changed that and now all ROTC commissioned officers are Regular officers.
Actually all ROTC grads (not sure about academy grads) still typically receive reserve commissions. You’re right about having to apply for a Regular Commission but you can still be on active duty as a reserve officer, as is the case for most JO’s. When there’s a RIF, the reserve officers are usually the first to go.
 
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