Lowering Standards

WT Door said:
Interesting thread on the challenges of fitness in today’s Navy. I'm all for a healthy lifestyle. There are a few of us Navy on SAF that can remember there was no fleet standard PRT. The PRT was implemented in the early 80’s.
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I can vividly remember my dad coming home from work and complaining to my mom that he had to start running and exercising because of work. He was NOT a happy camper.

But, he did it. Suffice it to say, he only stopped running daily when he was in his mid-60's and his knees/hips wouldn't let him anymore. And then, he would power walk for at least an hour a day. This was well after his retirement. I can say mandatory PRT stuff has been a good thing for him.
 
IIRC the actual graduation and commissioning requirement is to pass a Navy PFA, have a college degree, and do a surface cruise at some point. Everything not a requirement is optional, hence the folks that graduate with the "Bachelor of Science" (full stop) degree, the fleet PFA leeway for 1/C, and the football players that get two weeks of zero block summer training and we call it good. Those have all been around for a while.

Frankly the Navy has never put that much value in how fast someone runs. I don't think that's a surprise to anyone. If you read the PFA instruction, the purpose of the PFA is simply to ensure Sailors "maintain a healthy lifestyle." Fleet PFAs are pass/fail (the grading scale has no real value or impact on anything outside of individual pride). If you wanted to join a service that cares a lot about physical fitness, it's not the Navy.
 
IronmanDaremo said:
I can vividly remember my dad coming home from work and complaining to my mom that he had to start running and exercising because of work. He was NOT a happy camper.

But, he did it. Suffice it to say, he only stopped running daily when he was in his mid-60's and his knees/hips wouldn't let him anymore. And then, he would power walk for at least an hour a day. This was well after his retirement. I can say mandatory PRT stuff has been a good thing for him.
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Early implementation of the PRT was interesting. It was tough on those that did not have a regular fitness routine. I was right out of flight school and was in decent shape. I did my first PRT in port on the flight deck with the rest of the ship's company. It was a pretty rag-tag group up there. The A-CHENG ran while smoking a cigar. There wasn't a standardized PT uniform like there is today, so you showed up wearing anything you wanted. The test looked like a mish mash of frat boys, picknickers, and tourists. The ship's MWR officer convinced the CO to reimburse fifty percent of the cost to any crew member buying new running shoes. I got the latest Nikes which had great cushion for running the steel deck. I'll say my time in the Navy did encourage an active lifestyle. I took advantage playing on Captain's Cup sports like basketball, softball, golf, and horseshoes. I'm glad your Dad walked. My parents walked at the local mall. The idea for them was that it was better to work out than to rust out.

Picture of our Suez Transit. You can tell the priorities of each service. Navy - chillax; Marines - formation run

sueztransit.jpg
 
Sounds like maybe the cadence push-ups weren’t what they were looking for if they tested it out at USNA and decided to go back to the head bobs… I mean regular push-ups.

Alternate cardio such as the bike have been available in the fleet for some time, especially for injuries that may be worsened by running. For some people (like myself), the run portion is harder for them, but then they easily max the 500yd swim alternate cardio on the PRT. They now offer treadmill, bike (measured in calories), swim (450m or 500yd), and row (2k) for alternate cardio. Running is the default option but if the facilities and CO/CFL allow, sailors can choose to do alternate cardio. I remember swimming a PRT or two in NROTC back in the day (allowed as long as you had a Good-Low run PRT 1/C year) and have swum it at least once since commissioning.
 
The Brigade was briefed on the change in the PRT during Reform by the Dep. Commandant. They are moving to the Fleet Standards. All Midshipmen will be required to meet the Excellent Low, which is scored in the 20-24 age range.

Push-ups: There will not be a cadence, so the minimum amount of push-ups will go up.
Planks: The max will be lowered from 4:20 to 3:20 for males and 3:10 for females.
Run: The run minimums have been lowered; I do not remember exactly what the numbers are for this.
 
piper3 said:
The Brigade was briefed on the change in the PRT during Reform by the Dep. Commandant. They are moving to the Fleet Standards. All Midshipmen will be required to meet the Excellent Low, which is scored in the 20-24 age range.

Push-ups: There will not be a cadence, so the minimum amount of push-ups will go up.
Planks: The max will be lowered from 4:20 to 3:20 for males and 3:10 for females.
Run: The run minimums have been lowered; I do not remember exactly what the numbers are for this.
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Curious question…you mention that Excellent Low for 20-24 will be required…is that the minimum passing score or is the grading scale going to be aligned/scaled to that? For example, for the planks, a 60% at USNA is currently 1:45 (unisex), but in the Fleet…EL is 2:40 males and 2:30 females…so that would be an increase. 1:45 in the fleet would be in the good medium/low scoring.

*****
The Navy isn’t any other Service and as others have said comparing it to other Services is like apples and oranges. The Navy (and many other aspects of the military) have changed much within the last couple of years. Less manning and resources with more tasking equates to less work-life balance (where I bin physical fitness / fitness for life), longer deployments with a more complex geo-political world, high demand of Navy assets, etc. So for those that have not worn the uniform in the last 5-10 years…it isn’t the same Navy you were accustomed to. I used to chuckle at what the Space Force was doing with FitBits…but when you look at what the (holistic) Navy physical fitness requirements are…it really needs folks who can get through scuttles, up/down ladders, can move with a sense of urgency, and in good health/medical/endurance shape to be resilient…qualities that surround a more “fitness for life” model versus needing a specific metric…which is why I don’t chuckle much more at the Space Force model…because it allows you to be flexible on the type of workout and goes away from the 1-2x a year test (i.e. 1.5/3 mile club). So whether someone runs a 10:30 or 13:00 1.5 mile…what is the actual difference? What if the person who can only run 1.5 miles at 10:30 is completely exhausted…but the person running 13:00 can sustain for a longer distance? Which is better (rhetorically)? Yes, at some point a line has to be drawn…but when we talk about changing or “lowering” standards…is it being done for the right reasons? How many MIDN have been kicked out for PRT failures by maybe some mere seconds, who would have otherwise made great officers…this is the tradespace I’m certain was looked at before a decision was made to move out and I don’t think it is clearly wrong. And for those that want to go expeditionary, NSW, or USMC…there are no barriers to being in tip top shape to meet those standards. And for those that want to set the highest example, they will find a way to do so…whether it is physical fitness, how they lead, taking care of their subordinates, mentorship, and so forth.
 
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WT Door said:
Early implementation of the PRT was interesting. It was tough on those that did not have a regular fitness routine. I was right out of flight school and was in decent shape. I did my first PRT in port on the flight deck with the rest of the ship's company. It was a pretty rag-tag group up there. The A-CHENG ran while smoking a cigar. There wasn't a standardized PT uniform like there is today, so you showed up wearing anything you wanted. The test looked like a mish mash of frat boys, picknickers, and tourists. The ship's MWR officer convinced the CO to reimburse fifty percent of the cost to any crew member buying new running shoes. I got the latest Nikes which had great cushion for running the steel deck. I'll say my time in the Navy did encourage an active lifestyle. I took advantage playing on Captain's Cup sports like basketball, softball, golf, and horseshoes. I'm glad your Dad walked. My parents walked at the local mall. The idea for them was that it was better to work out than to rust out.

Picture of our Suez Transit. You can tell the priorities of each service. Navy - chillax; Marines - formation run

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Those sunbathers are wearing some awfully tiny swim suits. It looks like a European beach.
 
USMC Crayons said:
Is it your belief that physical fitness in the military is solely there to measure combat effectiveness? (Hint: it's not, that's why the Marines created a separate test) Do the proven benefits of routine exercise not apply to any job in the military?

If the powers that be really think future conflicts are going to be basically the equivalent of playing X-box with missiles, we are screwed.
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The “generals” are always fighting in the past. The new direction would like be to give country X technology so it can go to war with country Y using Xbox controllers while we are watching from the distance. Swarms of drones and jumping humanoid-like robots aren’t just for shows. Idea of the “boots on the ground” would be extremely tough sell to anyone, unless the Earth gets invaded by aliens from space.
 
Devil Doc said:
I’m not arguing with you when I say this but of those mids who fail the PRT, would they have been better replaced by PT studs who can’t do calculus or grasp engineering principles?
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Wait until we have a full generation of people growing up around Chat-GPT. We would be referring to Gen Z work ethics and exercise as habits as “back in the days…”
 
nuensis said:
Frankly the Navy has never put that much value in how fast someone runs. I don't think that's a surprise to anyone. If you read the PFA instruction, the purpose of the PFA is simply to ensure Sailors "maintain a healthy lifestyle." Fleet PFAs are pass/fail (the grading scale has no real value or impact on anything outside of individual pride). If you wanted to join a service that cares a lot about physical fitness, it's not the Navy.
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I think a certain group of warfare communities might see that a little differently. ;) The run and swim are the "starting scores" for the PST, against which push-ups, pull-ups, and sit-ups are subtracted from. Faster running makes a huge difference in the overall score there (lower the score, the better - especially when you see the "Excellent" mark for officers is a ridiculously low 790 score - the only way to achieve that is run and swim low 8's each for the test. 1-1/2 mile run, 500Y swim).
 
mike1979 said:
The “generals” are always fighting in the past. The new direction would like be to give country X technology so it can go to war with country Y using Xbox controllers while we are watching from the distance. Swarms of drones and jumping humanoid-like robots aren’t just for shows. Idea of the “boots on the ground” would be extremely tough sell to anyone, unless the Earth gets invaded by aliens from space.
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You are making some very bold assumptions. Every current conflict is being fought with boots on the ground. And while yes, there is a potential future with drones and remote warfare being a distinct possibility, you are heavily discounting the fact that EW won’t also evolve to make the use of drones effectively useless or of limited use. The combo of jamming and a couple of lasers could likely make quick work of a drone swarm. By all means though, let’s keep moving in the direction we are headed…I’m sure it’s going to be perfectly fine /s
 
cb7893 said:
Those sunbathers are wearing some awfully tiny swim suits. It looks like a European beach.
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Behaviors were different then as far as language and the amount of skin shown on the steel beach. The Eisenhower gets credit for being the first combatant to bring women onboard as permanent crew members but it was actually the USS Bowen. We were a Knox class frigate transitioning to a training ship for the Naval Reserve but still on COMNAVSURFLANT's operational schedule. The idea was to man the ship with TARs and bring reservists on for underway training periods. We knew the female sailors and one officer and one CPO were coming but were surprised when they showed up at the airport in Puerto Rico. They were supposed to have met us in Norfolk when we got back from the Caribbean. I knew something was up when I had a large box waiting for me on the pier when we tied up at Roosevelt Roads. The box contained items to treat female specific conditions. It even had a set of stirrups.

A Senior Chief was sent on a secret mission with a 15 passenger van to pick them up. It was a sight for the ages. The formerly male crew were standing around topside while their new shipmates got out of the van and struggled with their seabags while walking up the brow. I was on the flight deck watching the show. I had made HMC by then and plus, as the Doc, had enough clout to shut down a few cat calls. I wasn't up there just to watch however. I had a junior corpsman in the crowd of new sailors.

The reason for my essay is to share how our behaviors changed. I've seen more than one sailor sunbathe with nothing but a sock covering his sensitive body part. Despite all the grumbling about women coming aboard, the crew were mostly accepting and helpful. The article below is about our first female officer, Liz Galloway. It mentions how she was the first female officer assigned to a combatant. The CPO in the group fit in nicely with the other chiefs. The command master chief made sure the smutty videos and magazines were removed from the CPO Mess and told us we'd be castrated if we treated her differently than any other new chief. She went on to earn a doctorate in education while on active duty. She and the new officer shared a stateroom while the 12 enlisted slept in what was formerly air det. berthing.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/WILLA/fall09/pdf/buskist.pdf
 
The idea behind changing the standards to align with the fleet is that midshipmen are being separated for a test that, in the fleet, their scores would warrant an "excellent" title. Why have midshipmen devote so much time and energy training for a test that is not the same as the one in the fleet, when in any other commissioning source, they would have to meet the regular navy standards. The standard at USNA is that we will meet the "excellent" scores for the fleet prt. They showed a slide that in 1992 USNA was using long jump and pull ups for the physical test. Progression is a good thing
 
USMC Crayons said:
You are making some very bold assumptions. Every current conflict is being fought with boots on the ground. And while yes, there is a potential future with drones and remote warfare being a distinct possibility, you are heavily discounting the fact that EW won’t also evolve to make the use of drones effectively useless or of limited use. The combo of jamming and a couple of lasers could likely make quick work of a drone swarm. By all means though, let’s keep moving in the direction we are headed…I’m sure it’s going to be perfectly fine /s
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The answer to that is an autonomy by the means of visual recognition (I have seen semi working prototypes of that back in 2018) and navigation by the operator being connected with a long and thin fiber optic cable (available today)
 
NROTC we had to meet at least Good-Low for 20-24 age group on each event to pass. In the fleet, at least Satisfactory-Medium on each event for your age group is passing.
 
Stew Smith gets mentioned here often. The below article talks about the Marine PFT. Just a few years ago, pushups were not part of the test. Hard to believe considering how many pushups Marines did in those days. Pushups have been added but a Marine cannot get a 300 by doing them. They must do pullups to get that. Dead hang pullups and not kipping like in the old days. My son does chins with a 45 pound plate strapped to his waist. To show off, he does pullups on the PFT until told to stop.

One must be a military dot com member to read the entire article but joining is easy and doesn't cost anything. The site's articles are often featured in the Early Bird Brief.

www.military.com

Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test (PFT)

The Marine Corps PFT is a semi-annual evaluation and has three events, pull-ups, abdominal crunches, and a 3-mile run. Find requirements for each age group.
www.military.com www.military.com
 
nuensis said:
IIRC the actual graduation and commissioning requirement is to pass a Navy PFA, have a college degree, and do a surface cruise at some point.
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FWIW, my DS graduated and commissioned and NEVER set foot on any surface ship other than a YP for a few hours. He's been in the Fleet for coming up on two years and has still never set foot on a surface ship. COVID f-ed a lot of that up.

Don't know how it is now, but DS was his company's training officer and the minimum fitness standards did not apply as far as his company was concerned - especially to the plebes. If a plebe was borderline passing his/her PRT they were up with him at 0530 every morning working on that. There is "official" and then there is "expected". I hope that philosophy continues amongst the Brigade
 
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