Lowering Standards

It's disheartening to see people aiming for the minimum / satisfactory passing scores. What happened to striving for excellence?
The Navy has turned the PRT into a "check in the box" exercise. While there are different levels of scores, a Sat-Medium looks the same on paper as an Outstanding-High. With the PRT going to once per year (used to be two a year pre-COVID), there is no Navy-wide incentive to score anything above a Good-High since you have to get an overall Excellent-Low to validate the next PRT cycle, but you can only validate if there are two PRT cycles in a year. The Navy has deferred to COs to establish incentives for fitness. However, not all COs will advertise or even implement an incentives program. When your standing in the Navy rests predominately on your primary and collateral job performance, you naturally devote most of your time to doing well at those. Plus, with manning the way it is, most Sailors are working odd hours. So they might not have an incredible amount of opportunity to work out. Again, not saying it is right to just stiff arm your fitness, but there are reasons deeper than just settling for mediocrity.
 
The answer to that is an autonomy by the means of visual recognition (I have seen semi working prototypes of that back in 2018) and navigation by the operator being connected with a long and thin fiber optic cable (available today)
I think you are missing the original point entirely. I don't care what the future of warfare will or may look like, physical fitness should play a huge role in the military regardless if you are a grunt, or you push paper. I will argue that physical standards/fitness are even more important to non combat arms roles than it is for grunts. The grunts are going to get their exercise PFT/PRT or not ;) I'm not saying you have to complete an ironman, but our military should have at least a basic level of fitness.

We have a epidemic of mental illness in our active duty military. Between the years of 2019 and 2023 541k active duty military members were treated for a mental illness, 47% of which were diagnosed with more than one condition. The biggest increases came from anxiety and depression. What is one of the leading causes of A&D? Lack of physical activity. What an easy and free potential fix to help our effectiveness as a military. Or, lets just stick with the trajectory we are on. Suicidal actions and ideations and a pipeline of active duty members straight into the VA system. We already spend more money on compensation then we do on actual VA medical facilities and care, let's just load it up with some more bodies.
 
I think a certain group of warfare communities might see that a little differently. ;) The run and swim are the "starting scores" for the PST, against which push-ups, pull-ups, and sit-ups are subtracted from. Faster running makes a huge difference in the overall score there (lower the score, the better - especially when you see the "Excellent" mark for officers is a ridiculously low 790 score - the only way to achieve that is run and swim low 8's each for the test. 1-1/2 mile run, 500Y swim).
Yeah, they're on the other side of the spectrum, where running the PFA is a literal waste of time. Running a mile and a half and doing some pushups isn't even a good workout.

Most of them didn't even bother to buy the new Navy PT gear.

The PFA is to make sure no one has a heart attack while climbing up a ladder. A good CO (ashore, ships don't have time or space for it) will implement an actual physical fitness program in addition to.

If you care about physical fitness, you won't let the annual PFA be your fitness metric, because it's a very bad one.
 
Last edited:
PRT standards have been a joke in the fleet for years now. A big part of it was when they went from a PRT twice year to a single annual one. Now that one doesn't even really matter if you pass it or not.

Passing the PRT isn't hard. Maxing it, sure, but passing is easy if you are in decent shape and workout somewhat regularly. I'm not saying everyone should be up to SEAL/infantry standards or be maxing all the time, but to not be able to simple pass is just embarrassing. This is the military we're talking about. A basic standard of physical fitness is expected. If you take a look at a picture of a formation of Sailors on a Navy Facebook page, I guarantee about half of them are overweight.

Yeah there are a lot of jobs that don't require physical fitness to be able to do them, especially in the Air Force and Navy. That doesn't matter. If my ship was sinking and people had to escape out of the scuttles, there are numerous people on my ship that simply wouldn't be able to make it out because they're too fat to fit out the hole. That's not a case of somebody who only works out once a week, that's somebody who hasn't worked out in years yet is somehow still in the military.
 
It's disheartening to see people aiming for the minimum / satisfactory passing scores. What happened to striving for excellence?
That's another thing that I notice all the time now too. Every PRT you just see everyone asking "what's the minimum I need" so that they can just do the minimum and quit. At the end of the day there is no incentive to do more because at the end of the day the PRT gets graded as either Pass or Fail and that's all that anybody sees on their FITREP/EVALs. Out of an entire command or department you get maybe 4-5 people actually going all out and trying to do their max, everybody else is just there trying to put out the least amount of effort possible. I don't think that's necessarily a thing just with the current crop of new Sailors in the military now, I think that's just the mindset of the majority of young people now. Just do what is required to meet minimums and don't worry about doing your best.
 
The Brigade was briefed on the change in the PRT during Reform by the Dep. Commandant. They are moving to the Fleet Standards. All Midshipmen will be required to meet the Excellent Low, which is scored in the 20-24 age range.

Push-ups: There will not be a cadence, so the minimum amount of push-ups will go up.
Planks: The max will be lowered from 4:20 to 3:20 for males and 3:10 for females.
Run: The run minimums have been lowered; I do not remember exactly what the numbers are for this.
Just to make sure I understand this correctly, is the following table what will be used, with the highlighted sections what is approved(male)?

To be clear, I am not aiming for minimums. I just want to make sure I understand the standard. If the below table is correct, it seems the run is staying the same; the pushups are going up to compensate for no cadence, and the plank is going up.


1736367519774.png
 
Last edited:
Just to make sure I understand this correctly, is the following table what will be used, with the highlighted sections what is approved(male)?

To be clear, I am not aiming for minimums. I just want to make sure I understand the standard. If the below table is correct, it seems the run is staying the same; the pushups are going up to compensate for no cadence, and the plank is going up.


View attachment 17542
That sounds right based on your quoted post. However, it remains unclear if “required to meet Excellent-Low” means getting at least EL on each event or at least EL overall (which would mean you could max max relax strategy on your weakest event)
 
Pushups have been added but a Marine cannot get a 300 by doing them. They must do pullups to get that. Dead hang pullups and not kipping like in the old days.
DD spent a week at home over the holidays. Hit the gym -- the one I go to -- every single day. On the first day, about halfway through her 90-minute workout, she jumped up to a high bar and starting pumping out pull-ups. Each time her chin cleared the bar, I was reminded: Yup, she's a Marine. 😉
 
That sounds right based on your quoted post. However, it remains unclear if “required to meet Excellent-Low” means getting at least EL on each event or at least EL overall (which would mean you could max max relax strategy on your weakest event)
That is how it used to be. To get an A, you just had to get 270/300. Max the strength and you can chill on the run. Sure, a 70 wasn't frolicking in the meadow, but it wasn't hard to meet the time. I think it was a 9:50.
 
DD spent a week at home over the holidays. Hit the gym -- the one I go to -- every single day. On the first day, about halfway through her 90-minute workout, she jumped up to a high bar and starting pumping out pull-ups. Each time her chin cleared the bar, I was reminded: Yup, she's a Marine. 😉

Similar experience. Kid comes home (often, since we're local). Brings swim gear and goes to our gym with fins to try and get in better shape for the NSW screener.

Over break, eats it snowboarding and tears his AC ligaments in his right shoulder. Within a week of the Academy ortho, he's cleared to be back in the pool and running. He's right back to it.

It has been his experience that a lot of people care about fitness on the Yard, and get the importance of it. These young men and women will be leading young enlisted teams in barely a few years. If they are motivated and good leaders, they will share that with the teams they lead. Performance evals are written by leaders. They are not purely based on metrics. If you s-it the bed in some respect, it will catch up to you. Physical fitness is one of those areas.
 
It has been his experience that a lot of people care about fitness on the Yard, and get the importance of it. These young men and women will be leading young enlisted teams in barely a few years. If they are motivated and good leaders, they will share that with the teams they lead. Performance evals are written by leaders. They are not purely based on metrics. If you s-it the bed in some respect, it will catch up to you. Physical fitness is one of those areas.
I would say this is one of the big differences between USNA and the Fleet. At USNA, there is a culture of fitness, it is built into your day, and the PRT standards are such that you need to work out regularly to maintain a fitness level above them. In the Fleet, nobody really cares when, how much, or if you work out as long as you pass the PFA (BCA and PRT). Also, work schedules and facility constraints can make working out difficult. If you are caught underway on a small boy or doing min turn after min turn in support of a flight schedule, or even doing intense studying for a qual, your fitness routine will likely suffer. Real life also takes over between marriages, home repairs, chores, grad school, etc. Time management is something USNA prepares you for, but it takes more conscious effort as battle rhythms are different.
 
These young men and women will be leading young enlisted teams in barely a few years. If they are motivated and good leaders, they will share that with the teams they lead.

Single most important comment on the thread. The keenest and harshest judges of junior officers are the enlisted troops they command.

As a form of recognition for good team performance, DS would treat them to a post-PT breakfast at Cracker Barrel.
 
To somewhat settle an off-topic argument, I would love to see data from USNA about PRT scores and MIDNs' height. Physics generally says taller people have more work to do during planks and pushups. Running is more debatable. I have seen arguments on both sides for that one. With USNA's somewhat consistent age and fitness levels, I would think that it would be a decent dataset to see if there is a height effect.
 
Running is more debatable.
I'm short and often ran alongside folks who take WAY fewer steps than I did.
When USNA used to require us to pass a graded obstacle course every semester, over half of the obstacles were pretty tall/high to the point that it was difficult for "low altitude" folks to even reach them. The course had lower obstacles added next to some of them when the first women arrived in 1976 because the women had a lower average height than the men (per official briefing from USNA) but all males were required to continue to use the high obstacles no matter how tall they were (or were not).
 
For me, it comes down to the purpose of the level of fitness you're demanding. There is job-specific fitness, such as that required by SEALs, EOD, Marine infantry, etc. I have no issue with any community establishing and enforcing such requirements.

Then there is fitness as in being in shape. There are all sorts of good reasons for military people to be fit and in shape, regardless of their specific jobs. Health, looking professional in a uniform, being prepared for unexpected eventualities, etc.

The question is how one measures that type of fitness. There is weight and body mass but that doesn't always work. My firstie was "overweight" with 7% body fat (and actually had to lose weight (muscle mass) to graduate).

Then there is testing. But what should we test? Currently, it's running (as default). However, some people are better swimmers than runners. Some people can run but are rocks in the water. So, is running the best measure of fitness? Yes, if you need people to be able to run (see above for job specific requirements). But if running isn't essential, maybe fitness can be demonstrated with a bike or swim. I would argue that a varsity swimmer or an elite cyclist is in the same "shape" as a varsity X-country runner, but each probably isn't nearly as strong in the other disciplines.

Now, mids know the current standards when they show up and when they sign the 2 for 7. But I really have to wonder whether (borrowing from another recent post), we want people leaving before 2 for 7 b/c they're afraid of failing the 1.5 mile run and having to pay back hundreds of thousands of dollars. If they're out of shape (failing multiple elements of the PRT, overweight, etc.), that's one thing. But what if they look great, can do sit-ups and plank and pushups -- and can even swim and bike -- but can't run well? Kick 'em out? Really? If you told me a varsity swimmer was being booted b/c s/he couldn't pass the run, I would have some serious questions. Of course, that wouldn't happen, would it?

For me, "lowering" standards means changing the lowest passing score so that people who failed in the past now pass. I agree that we need to think hard about doing that. Allowing people (legitimate) means of demonstrating cardiovascular fitness other than running may make sense. Changing who gets an excellent or good on the PRT is no different than academic grade inflation (which has clearly happened at USNA since I was a mid).
 
I'm short and often ran alongside folks who take WAY fewer steps than I did.
When USNA used to require us to pass a graded obstacle course every semester, over half of the obstacles were pretty tall/high to the point that it was difficult for "low altitude" folks to even reach them. The course had lower obstacles added next to some of them when the first women arrived in 1976 because the women had a lower average height than the men (per official briefing from USNA) but all males were required to continue to use the high obstacles no matter how tall they were (or were not).
Is this still an issue? I’m also on the shorter side…
 
Is this still an issue? I’m also on the shorter side…
There is no graded obstacle course evolution to graduate. Your Plebe Summer obstacle course runs are to introduce you to the obstacle course and to fill time. The only time your scores will be scrutinized is for certain warfare communities and summer training opportunties.
 
There is no graded obstacle course evolution to graduate. Your Plebe Summer obstacle course runs are to introduce you to the obstacle course and to fill time. The only time your scores will be scrutinized is for certain warfare communities and summer training opportunties.
I mean, regarding OldRetSWO's comments regarding height. Will I have issues with the O Course being on the shorter end?
 
I mean, regarding OldRetSWO's comments regarding height. Will I have issues with the O Course being on the shorter end?
In my post, I said that we USED to have a graded O Course every semester. The entire course is now gone and there is no longer a requirement like it. That said, you will still be running many more steps than your taller classmates when you run. Lots of short mids are Physical Fitness beasts.
 
Back
Top