LTC Heffington's Open Letter

I will start by saying, I do not have a dog in this fight other than being a tax payer, a veteran, and an avid reader of this forum.
My son is an AROTC Cadet attending an SMC.
On the forum I read a lot of posts about how standards should not be lowered for reason.
While primarily in the context for physical standards for females moving into fields now open to them.
It seems to me that test scores are similar.
There are several ways to commission. If an athlete wants to commission but has a 19 ACT perhaps they need to follow a path other than WP.
And if Army's team is not as good, well then.....
A possible exception could be for prior enlisted who have proven themselves, similar to a campus based ROTC scholarship.
If after commissioning "no one cares where you went to school" than why not maintain a higher standard for WP, the "elite'"commissioning source?
Just sayin'
 
JTGib13 said:
This article would have shocked me any time before R-Day of 2016 because I too believed that The United States Military Academy was exactly what most other people believed it to be: A place consisting of our country's most hard working, honest, respectful and amazing young men and women who genuinely believe in duty, honor and country. Now however, after my son has been at West Point for almost 16 months, I have heard most of what LTC Heffington expressed in his open letter many times before from both my son and his closest Cadet friends. I was not at all shocked when I read the article because I have already accepted the false mystique of West Point. At this point, all I am left with is an empty feeling of pure disenchantment. Something absolutely needs to give and it needs to begin in the Office of Admissions.
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Are you saying your DS is not hard working, dishonest, disrespectful, not amazing and don't believe in duty, honor, and country? The Corps cannot be defined by some bad cadets.
 
AJC said:
My son is an AROTC Cadet attending an SMC.

If an athlete wants to commission but has a 19 ACT perhaps they need to follow a path other than WP.

If after commissioning "no one cares where you went to school" than why not maintain a higher standard for WP, the "elite'"commissioning source'
Click to expand...

Why is you son attending a SMC if "no one cares where you went to school." Just satin'

SAT/ACT is just a measurement, snapshot. There are plenty of cadets, including myself, with high SAT/ACT scores that struggled academically.
 
The SMC was my son's choice. I was merely providing some context.
The "no one cares" is often asserted on this forum. I myself cannot speak to it, hence the quotes.
 
MemberLG said:
JTGib13 said:
This article would have shocked me any time before R-Day of 2016 because I too believed that The United States Military Academy was exactly what most other people believed it to be: A place consisting of our country's most hard working, honest, respectful and amazing young men and women who genuinely believe in duty, honor and country. Now however, after my son has been at West Point for almost 16 months, I have heard most of what LTC Heffington expressed in his open letter many times before from both my son and his closest Cadet friends. I was not at all shocked when I read the article because I have already accepted the false mystique of West Point. At this point, all I am left with is an empty feeling of pure disenchantment. Something absolutely needs to give and it needs to begin in the Office of Admissions.
Click to expand...

Are you saying your DS is not hard working, dishonest, disrespectful, not amazing and don't believe in duty, honor, and country? The Corps cannot be defined by some bad cadets.
Click to expand...
Respectfully, I disagree with you that "The Corps cannot be defined by some bad cadets" because if those bad cadets (your words) are simply allowed to remain deficient, and then they are never required to work towards the set standards of excellence because one person decides mediocrity is ok, while also breaking the chain of command, both the problem AND the tarnished reputation belong to the entire Corps. And finally, to answer your question, if my son decides that it's easier to not work hard, or to be dishonest, or to be disrespectful and everything else you asked, then yes, he would be all of that but he would understand that he owns the reputation that goes along with making those decisions. Make a mistake, get caught, own it, accept the consequences. That should apply to all, IMHO.
 
Do not let this discussion stray into a political debate. The only place political discussion is allowed is in the Off Topic area and then only if it is civil and respectful. Final warning.

Stealth_81
 
Oh boy ...I was afraid this was going to get started. I went to USMA and came back and taught from 92-95. Even then I was forced as an instructor to raise grades from semester to semester to show progress. It has just gotten much worse in recent years. All in the nature of showing progress in a progressive society.

I have been back in recent years to do related govt work and twice had to interact with Caslen personally. He is not impressive and it is pretty clear the focus is on athletics, winning football teams, and showing from year to year that everything is just fine. The academic and ethical focus has gone right out the window and the academic faculty feels absolutely distrusted and trashed. The man needs to go and the whole lot of them replaced with men of character. Caslen's schtick is to simply say look at all these great young Americans in the academy during a time of war, as if that means traditions and ethics and standards can be relaxed. Hogwash.
 
The argument here seems to be what are the qualifications for getting into the academy, but that doesnt seem to be the big issue to me . The real problem seems to be what happens once they get into the academy , how they act and how the administration reacts to them. Isnt that the whole point of how the communist commissioned. If that is done properly those who are qualified will remain and the ones who arent wont. As for the athletes, they are always going to get preferential treatment and I am okay with that. Lets be honest, all colleges take advantage of their student athletes and the free academics they receive is nothing compared to the money the schools make off them. If the athletes are the only ones who could can get in without being 100% qualified, I think you are doing okay.
 
JTGib13 said:
MemberLG said:
JTGib13 said:
This article would have shocked me any time before R-Day of 2016 because I too believed that The United States Military Academy was exactly what most other people believed it to be: A place consisting of our country's most hard working, honest, respectful and amazing young men and women who genuinely believe in duty, honor and country. Now however, after my son has been at West Point for almost 16 months, I have heard most of what LTC Heffington expressed in his open letter many times before from both my son and his closest Cadet friends. I was not at all shocked when I read the article because I have already accepted the false mystique of West Point. At this point, all I am left with is an empty feeling of pure disenchantment. Something absolutely needs to give and it needs to begin in the Office of Admissions.
Click to expand...

Are you saying your DS is not hard working, dishonest, disrespectful, not amazing and don't believe in duty, honor, and country? The Corps cannot be defined by some bad cadets.
Click to expand...
Respectfully, I disagree with you that "The Corps cannot be defined by some bad cadets" because if those bad cadets (your words) are simply allowed to remain deficient, and then they are never required to work towards the set standards of excellence because one person decides mediocrity is ok, while also breaking the chain of command, both the problem AND the tarnished reputation belong to the entire Corps. And finally, to answer your question, if my son decides that it's easier to not work hard, or to be dishonest, or to be disrespectful and everything else you asked, then yes, he would be all of that but he would understand that he owns the reputation that goes along with making those decisions. Make a mistake, get caught, own it, accept the consequences. That should apply to all, IMHO.
Click to expand...

I also respectfully disagree that an open letter and two current cadets with limited access are sufficient to condemn West Point leadership. Some grads will understand it when I say the first goal of all cadets is graduation.
 
Humey said:
Isnt that the whole point of how the communist commissioned.
Click to expand...

Personally, I think LT Rapone should not have been commissioned. Some people think our current President is not qualified for the job, but their opinions don't matter as the current President won the electoral votes. West Point don't do thing based on personal opinions, they follow established rules. There were some discussions and I believe no one pointed out any rules against being a communist now. Yes, old days our security clearance questionnaire asked if you were a member of communist party, I don't know if that question is still asked.

So how does a cadet get commissioned? Pass his classes. Being a communist doesn't make you dumb. Pass commissioning physical. Again, being a communist doesn't somehow make you unhealthy. Obtain passing military grades. Again, being a communist doesn't somehow make you bad squad leader during a patrol. LT Rapone might have been lying and stealing cadet, but he is innocent until proven guilty. LTC Heffington accused and other sources mentioned him being disrespectful, but not lying or stealing. West Point grads will agree that a regulation violation is not an honor violation.

I like someone to point out how disrespect or challenging authorities could be a justification not commissioning a cadet that met all the requirements?
 
BCT81 said:
Oh boy ...I was afraid this was going to get started. I went to USMA and came back and taught from 92-95. Even then I was forced as an instructor to raise grades from semester to semester to show progress.
Click to expand...

You could have been one of my P's. Perhaps I didn't realize that professors were raising my grades as I felt that I earned my not so stellar grades.
 
jebdad said:
Maybe the answer is to admit more and cull more leaving the strong to survive.
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Admit the same and cull more.

Make up the difference with ROTC and OCS. I'd rather reward, with a scholarship, the motivated kid who showed up for two years to ROTC without a scholarship than keep investing in a malingerer/malcontent who would end up commanding soldiers. OCS would have more history and resume to scrutinize than an SA admissions department would have examining an 18 yr. old.

If there is more culling and draconian consequences for being culled, that will filter down to the pool of aspiring cadets/mids who would probably self select those less willing to make the physical and academic commitment or are less confident in their ability to adhere to the honor code.

I simply can't believe there is lying, cheating and stealing on a scale described by LTC Heffington and SAF posters.
 
jebdad said:
The biggest thing they noticed is how many were good students but were really "soft" and have little interest/commitment to the military training side of things.
Click to expand...

WP has lost its focus over the past 10-15 years. They pretty much market themselves as a civilian institution, but oh, by the way, there are some uniforms involved. It used to be a crucible that required much, much more to graduate. Now it is just retain, retain, retain……at any cost.
 
MemberLG said:
JTGib13 said:
MemberLG said:
JTGib13 said:
This article would have shocked me any time before R-Day of 2016 because I too believed that The United States Military Academy was exactly what most other people believed it to be: A place consisting of our country's most hard working, honest, respectful and amazing young men and women who genuinely believe in duty, honor and country. Now however, after my son has been at West Point for almost 16 months, I have heard most of what LTC Heffington expressed in his open letter many times before from both my son and his closest Cadet friends. I was not at all shocked when I read the article because I have already accepted the false mystique of West Point. At this point, all I am left with is an empty feeling of pure disenchantment. Something absolutely needs to give and it needs to begin in the Office of Admissions.
Click to expand...

Are you saying your DS is not hard working, dishonest, disrespectful, not amazing and don't believe in duty, honor, and country? The Corps cannot be defined by some bad cadets.
Click to expand...
Respectfully, I disagree with you that "The Corps cannot be defined by some bad cadets" because if those bad cadets (your words) are simply allowed to remain deficient, and then they are never required to work towards the set standards of excellence because one person decides mediocrity is ok, while also breaking the chain of command, both the problem AND the tarnished reputation belong to the entire Corps. And finally, to answer your question, if my son decides that it's easier to not work hard, or to be dishonest, or to be disrespectful and everything else you asked, then yes, he would be all of that but he would understand that he owns the reputation that goes along with making those decisions. Make a mistake, get caught, own it, accept the consequences. That should apply to all, IMHO.
Click to expand...

I also respectfully disagree that an open letter and two current cadets with limited access are sufficient to condemn West Point leadership. Some grads will understand it when I say the first goal of all cadets is graduation.
Click to expand...
You are obviously so angered by this open letter that you are also mad at anyone who dares to think that there may be a deeper problem than what's visible on the advertised surface. Have you even read the other posts in this thread that also seem to agree there may be some room for improvement? Please stop misquoting my posts to advance your own viewpoints. My opinion is that I do believe many of the accounts in the open letter by LTC Heffington but I absolutely NEVER said it should be believed by all just because some current Cadets also agree with letter---I said the Cadets' words were eerily similar to many of the points stated in the open letter. I am absolutely NOT the only one on this thread who isn't questioning at least the strength in the chain of command. So please read other posts in this thread and allow me the right to formulate my own opinion on this matter. I think there is always room for improvement in every establishment and I respect LTC Heffington's courage to step forward and challenge the current system of discipline.
 
Can everyone stop calling Lt. Rapone a "communist" and stop treating him like an agent of COMINTERN? Keep it on point. He posted that Gen. Mattis is “the most vile f*ck in the current administration.” That would be enough to run him out if he were an Adam Smith praising Baptist Church deacon. The more you refer to him as a "communist," the more you indulge him. LTC Heffington said it best in his sworn statement:

At best, Lt. Rapone's online ideological screeds reveal the philosophical infatuations of a precocious adolescent, rather like a high school boy who can't stop spouting off about Nietzsche. The "misunderstood" and "persecuted" genius shouts truth to power by cobbling together ideas and quotations and popping off in chat rooms and on Facebook walls, certain that his provocative and shocking proclamations will, based solely on their vehemence and sarcasm, demonstrate both the profound sincerity and the unassailable validity of his viewpoint.

In other words, his politics should be taken as seriously as the rantings of the adolescent who claims to be an atheist, or a white nationalist or a Rastafarian without having any idea what he's talking about. Treating his politics seriously heightens his sense of persecution which is precisely what will allow him to leave the military scot-free rather than paying the consequences of his self-documented insubordination.
 
Interesting thread. I graduated from an historic SMC nearly fifty years ago, and a close cousin graduated from USNA about the same time. The same issues seem to arise and cause concern among graduates of these schools in cycles. While I was an Army officer, I served side by side with West Point graduates, and their character and training were outstanding. It is rare that an institution changes a person's character. Cadets arrive at federal service academies, or any other college, and conduct themselves essentially the same way they learned to do growing up. WP hopefully helps young persons learn more about themselves, their abilities, and be leaders of others. I don't believe WP or any other college can teach someone integrity or courage. There is nothing wrong with the ideals, training or mission of WP - a great national treasure - or the vast majority of young men and women who enter and graduate from WP. It is leadership from the top that comes and goes - and I mean DOD leadership as much as who happens to be Superintendent or Commandant - and that sets the tone for standards. If leadership tolerates poor performance and lack of standards, everyone below will take note and conduct themselves as their nature suggests. If leadership sets a high tone and their actions show they mean what they say - only the truly foolish will fail to notice. As far as admissions standards - West Point is graduating junior officers for the military services - not PHd candidates. My cousin entered the USNA from the enlisted ranks of the Navy and ended up commanding nuclear submarines. My son-in-law was an enlisted Marine before completing OCS and has commanded men in two wars in four deployments. I would share a fox hole with either of them versus someone whose paper credentials would admit him/her to Harvard. Just saying.
 
The issues raised by Heffington letter disturb me tremendously. I am not a WP alum and never served, although I have always had tremendous admiration for WP and the other academies (My father was an army officer from a ROTC program, always rooted for WP in the big game, took me to a few WP football games and Saturday parades when I was young, etc.)I have been around long enough to understand that myth and reality don't always precisely coincide when looking at "elite" institutions, whether a university, club, private company or anything else. And I know that WP, like the other academies, goes through good cycles and bad ones, often depending on the general mood of the nation (eg, Eisenhower years vs late Vietnam era), that there have been cheating scandals, drug issues, etc. However, the Heffington letter appears to be describing a condition beyond a "bad cycle" or embarrassing incident. If it is largely true, it shows a deep seated, moral, institutional rot, from the top down. Rapone, the slack admission standards for certain favored groups, the unwillingness to enforce rules or hold cadets to high standards, are all symptoms of this rot (again, if true). I will be most interested in how the Superintendent responds to the letter.

Beyond that, however, I have a question that I don't see addressed directly or in depth above: Do the conditions and issues raised by the Heffington letter apply to the other academies? My natural suspicion would be to think that they do to one extent or another. My son is applying for the class of 22 at USNA. We have faced the "lower standards for varsity athletes" issue directly, as he has a classmate whose SAT scores and grades are lower than his, who is not an honor student or in the Natl Honor Society as my son is, but who is a recruited athlete, and who understands that he will likely get a spot in NAPS and then be admitted the following year. While this is certainly not uncommon at other elite colleges that have successful D1 programs, I do wonder how much of a place it should have at a service academy. That obviously is an issue that can be and has been debated at great length.

Any insight into the applicability of the issues raised by Heffington to the USNA? Thanks
 
cb7893 said:
Can everyone stop calling Lt. Rapone a "communist" and stop treating him like an agent of COMINTERN? Keep it on point. He posted that Gen. Mattis is “the most vile f*ck in the current administration.” That would be enough to run him out if he were an Adam Smith praising Baptist Church deacon. The more you refer to him as a "communist," the more you indulge him. LTC Heffington said it best in his sworn statement:

At best, Lt. Rapone's online ideological screeds reveal the philosophical infatuations of a precocious adolescent, rather like a high school boy who can't stop spouting off about Nietzsche. The "misunderstood" and "persecuted" genius shouts truth to power by cobbling together ideas and quotations and popping off in chat rooms and on Facebook walls, certain that his provocative and shocking proclamations will, based solely on their vehemence and sarcasm, demonstrate both the profound sincerity and the unassailable validity of his viewpoint.

In other words, his politics should be taken as seriously as the rantings of the adolescent who claims to be an atheist, or a white nationalist or a Rastafarian without having any idea what he's talking about. Treating his politics seriously heightens his sense of persecution which is precisely what will allow him to leave the military scot-free rather than paying the consequences of his self-documented insubordination.
Click to expand...

I can think of a lot of labels that apply to Rapone...but I believe HE was the one who self-identified as a Communist....
 
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