March 8th, 2011 AROTC Board

Here's what I should add - my oldest applied last year with over a 4.0 plus only missed 1 question on the sat - no scholarship. Did not have the well rounded resume as this years kid had tho (he did have pretty good tho - vol fireman (20hrs/wk), 3 sports/yr with varsity capt's) + job - not nearly as good a writer on statement and prob did not make as great an impact on interview.

Back to orig point - if you meet min gpa and sat, it all comes down to interview, PT score, and quality of submitted written statements.
 
Last point - DS was also offered an AF 4 yr with same mediocre stats that met min for gpa and sat. Offered for any degree (nontech or whatever he wants). I think was based on overall well rounded resume with very high PT + making an impact during interview.

---- bottom line is that you must meet the min for sat and gpa , but you need to rock all the other categorys.

I'm sure there may be some other viewpoints on this one - but thats my experience after going thru the process over the last 2 years.

(AF was interesting - awarded scholarship for chinese degree on 2nd board - declined it after he changed mind - recompeted for any non-tech degree and was selected again on last board.)
 
FloridaDad said:
Really pleased for your son but it makes me wonder what CC are looking at. A weighted GPA of 3.2 is pretty low in most high schools, and I am presuming his unweighted was well below 3.0.

I am sure he is a fine young man with good leadership qualities but with those academic stats he would struggle to get into most colleges. Also many kids struggle a little when they step up to college level, and their GPA takes a dive. I am sure he has the character to be an army officer but its a huge risk on CC's behalf to offer a four year scholarship with those academics.
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You are correct - he did get rejected (or waitlisted) from his top schools!! However, luckily Army ROTC is offered at lots of schools. He made sure he included lower level schools where he knew he would get accepted.
 
rf15 said:
---- bottom line is that you must meet the min for sat and gpa , but you need to rock all the other categorys.
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Probably more to do with the school choice TBH. The PT is a minor part of the ROTC application, and the interview only accounts for 200 points. Nearly all the applicants I have seen on this forum would be 150+ on the interview.
 
FloridaDad said:
Probably more to do with the school choice TBH. The PT is a minor part of the ROTC application, and the interview only accounts for 200 points. Nearly all the applicants I have seen on this forum would be 150+ on the interview.
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Concur 100% - he made sure he included state public schools instead of only ivy league type stuff.
 
Our DS actually had a lower GPA (3.1 weighted) than RJ15's DS. I know there were other candidates out there who definitely deserved the AROTC scholarships, but I am a firm believer of the "whole person" concept, because if it was grades alone DS would not have received the scholarship.

He did apply to schools that he knew he would get into, accepted to VMI, Citadel, DePaul University, and Norwich. He accepted award to Citadel with hopes of transferring to Norwich.
 
With all the debate about GPA, everyone must keep in mind a 3.2 from one school has nothing to do with a 3.2 from another school. If you look at the application carefully, they also ask class rank. Finally, they ask for a transcript. And the transcript tells much more than you know.

First, HS transcripts give an overview of the class as a whole - percentage who matriculate to 2 and 4 year colleges, profile of the colleges selected. It details grade weighting formulae and class ranking procedures (some rank on weighted, others on unweighted, etc.). Finally, there is often the section that indicates whether the student has taken the most challenging course schedule possible (this question is asked by many competitive institutions).

So while many applicants have opportunities to take many advanced classes at their HS, many other applicants from areas (rural and urban) without those opportunities can be evaluated based upon what is available to them and what they've done with that opportunity.

And likewise where some applicants go to HS where there may be 10 or more students with perfect 4.0 GPAs in a graduating class, some schools' top 10 percentile may extend down into the 3.2 (unweighted) GPA range. I know Goaliegirl's school did. And in the 4 years I went to graduations at her school, I don't remember there ever being a single 4.0 (UW) GPA when they announced the stats of the Val.

While we don't know how CC uses the HS transcript, I can tell you the they have all the resources that your typical college has to evaluate the academic achievement of a student. And while we sit and wonder how one candidate gets selected over another, they are the only ones who have the complete picture in front of them.
 
Trying to guess the board's selections could take days, a whole thread devoted to it and we still would not really have a clue. The PMS that sit each time are different, I believe, and are not the same from year to year for sure. With 2016 facing even steeper DOD cuts and downsizing of all forces these young people will need to understand BACK UP PLAN. My DS, not awarded in 2011 boards, is now realizing why I did not back down on the importance of back up plans. Do the best you can, be involved in your school and community whether sports, voluteering, scouting, church and or other clubs and jobs. Study, grades matter - not just in the ROTC world, but academic scholarships are more readily available than most realize, not to Ivy's but to other state schools that are good programs for undergrad and ROTC. DS is still getting his dream school, only because we searched out schools he could love and get merit money. Without his merit money he would be at #2 school and learn to love it too.

BACK UP PLAN!!! Best advice I can give for any future AROTC hopefuls. Chase the commission -- how ever you have to get there.

OT-- hope everyone has a blessed and peaceful Easter holiday!!
 
Regarding 3.1, 3.2 GPA students who were awarded scholarships vs. 4.0 students who were not --

Academic/Book intelligence is only one kind of intelligence. Some would say that beyond a basic level of academic intelligence, the most important intelligence is emotional. The ability to deal with stress, setback, and keep driving forward. The next would be social. 99% of the jobs both in the military and in the civilian world require working with people... gaining their respect, colaborating, working together toward accomplishing a task or goal. Then there is physical intelligence -- think a movement, and the body does it as requested -- we can also call this being a "natural athlete", or "Very coordinated. Then there is spacial intelligence... the ability to understand the 3 dimensional world and how mountains, chopper parts, etc. relate to each other in space. Many kinds of intelligence, most of which cannot be captured in GPA or SAT/ACT or class rank.

All those intelligences -- book, emotional, social, physical, spacial... are needed in the real world, and in the military as well. Each Board looks at a candidate to see how all these intelligences combine together to make a good future officer.

How is emotional and social intelligence measured? Leadership finds itself mostly in these two categories of intelligence. That shows up in the essay and interview. I don't think anyone would complain that an arrogant, 4.0 student who puts people off, fidgets and looks at his/her shoes in the PMS interview, or is clueless about how to be a friend and team member would fail to gain a scholarship! At the end the PMS interview, the PMS essentially must ask him/herself the question: would I follow this person into battle?

Essentially the #1 selection criterion is Leadership... after that is demonstrated, only then do academic intelligence and physical fitness play a role, but a supporting one.
 
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These last four posts are truly outstanding and sound advice to future applicants. The key is to apply for everything and anything, with multiple, multiple back-up plans in place. Unfortunately, in this process, there is so much in play that has little to do with the candidate's credentials. Lady Luck is a major factor.

Ohio, before you execute on your backup plans, please consider this other route. In schooling up on ROTC this year, I learned that there are a bunch of graduate students taking advantage of ROTC. I had thought it was an "undergraduate" thing but it doesn't appear to be so. As such, if your DS uses the merit scholarship during undergrad, participating in ROTC but delaying contracting (i.e., NOT signing up for SMP right now), can he then apply for an ROTC scholarship to grad school????? I suspect that those who took a scholarship for undergrad are not eligible for the grad school ROTC (unless it's for a professional credential like med school or law school). If your DS is planning to be a career Army officer, he will need a graduate degree at some point anyway (it's required nowadays for the active-duty types). And if he is planning a career as a civilian post-military, then he still needs a graduate degree to move into the higher echelons of the corporation. I know it's hard to convince a high-school senior to think long-term, but if you evaluate this over the course of a 6 to 8-year period, you may actually find that you will come out BETTER, financially, than if your DS had accepted a scholarship now. You'll also have to factor / educate yourself about the GI Bill to see how much that pays for grad school (are there longer service requirements for scholarship students than non-scholarship students??). Ohio, I suppose what I'm saying is that these are some things to think about before your DS signs on the dotted line. This was actuallly one of my backup plans if my DS got dinged from AROTC and decided not to go the USMA route (as you know, he wants to go to med school eventually, so a graduate degree was definitely in the cards). Because my DS has now decided on USMA, I won't be investing a whole lot of time thinking about this right now. But you should. :thumb:

One thing I have to say to all of the folks on this thread (and the Jan. board thread) is that I have become a better parent after reading all of your posts. You have also taught me how wonderful people can be to one each other, even to people they've never met. Thank you al for collective insight, encouragement, clever tips, and for making me laugh these many months. :smile:
 
Amen and Amen

dunninla said:
Regarding 3.1, 3.2 GPA students who were awarded scholarships vs. 4.0 students who were not --

Academic/Book intelligence is only one kind of intelligence. Some would say that beyond a basic level of academic intelligence, the most important intelligence is emotional. The ability to deal with stress, setback, and keep driving forward. The next would be social. 99% of the jobs both in the military and in the civilian world require working with people... gaining their respect, colaborating, working together toward accomplishing a task or goal. Then there is physical intelligence -- think a movement, and the body does it as requested -- we can also call this being a "natural athlete", or "Very coordinated. Then there is spacial intelligence... the ability to understand the 3 dimensional world and how mountains, chopper parts, etc. relate to each other in space. Many kinds of intelligence, most of which cannot be captured in GPA or SAT/ACT or class rank.

All those intelligences -- book, emotional, social, physical, spacial... are needed in the real world, and in the military as well. Each Board looks at a candidate to see how all these intelligences combine together to make a good future officer.

How is emotional and social intelligence measured? Leadership finds itself mostly in these two categories of intelligence. That shows up in the essay and interview. I don't think anyone would complain that an arrogant, 4.0 student who puts people off, fidgets and looks at his/her shoes in the PMS interview, or is clueless about how to be a friend and team member would fail to gain a scholarship! At the end the PMS interview, the PMS essentially must ask him/herself the question: would I follow this person into battle?

Essentially the #1 selection criterion is Leadership... after that is demonstrated, only then do academic intelligence and physical fitness play a role, but a supporting one.
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In college I had a friend who studied Chemical Engineering and received one B in his four years, it was in a class where everything was done in groups. Same guy completed his PhD at MIT. He was also the one that would go into the kitchen and come back with the pizza on his hand because he forgot the plate! His wife spent hours running all over campus looking for his jackets he could never remember to put on. His wife always said he looked great on paper but could never get past the interview (she by the way aced the interviews when she could get them.)

We live in a very quantitative society and dunninla has eloquently reminded us that many of the skills needed to succeed are not quantifiable! Passion, stick-to-it-ness, die for you, cry with you, love you know matter what attitudes don't translate into high ACT scores. The glory of the process is that it's still just beginning, if you want to serve you can still enroll and pursue your dream and prove you do have those skills.

Father-in-law grew up near a Dow Chemical plant, which was where everyone wanted to work. Story goes that they wouldn't even consider your application until you had applied THREE times. Most people would give up after the first time. Don't give up.
 
dunninla said:
Regarding 3.1, 3.2 GPA students who were awarded scholarships vs. 4.0 students who were not --

Academic/Book intelligence is only one kind of intelligence. Some would say that beyond a basic level of academic intelligence, the most important intelligence is emotional. The ability to deal with stress, setback, and keep driving forward. The next would be social. 99% of the jobs both in the military and in the civilian world require working with people... gaining their respect, colaborating, working together toward accomplishing a task or goal. Then there is physical intelligence -- think a movement, and the body does it as requested -- we can also call this being a "natural athlete", or "Very coordinated. Then there is spacial intelligence... the ability to understand the 3 dimensional world and how mountains, chopper parts, etc. relate to each other in space. Many kinds of intelligence, most of which cannot be captured in GPA or SAT/ACT or class rank.

All those intelligences -- book, emotional, social, physical, spacial... are needed in the real world, and in the military as well. Each Board looks at a candidate to see how all these intelligences combine together to make a good future officer.

How is emotional and social intelligence measured? Leadership finds itself mostly in these two categories of intelligence. That shows up in the essay and interview. I don't think anyone would complain that an arrogant, 4.0 student who puts people off, fidgets and looks at his/her shoes in the PMS interview, or is clueless about how to be a friend and team member would fail to gain a scholarship! At the end the PMS interview, the PMS essentially must ask him/herself the question: would I follow this person into battle?

Essentially the #1 selection criterion is Leadership... after that is demonstrated, only then do academic intelligence and physical fitness play a role, but a supporting one.
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I agree that leadership is the most important quality in an officer. When bullets are whizzing overhead, I bet the thing you'll least care about is your officer's GPA. That said, in my experience, I've seen no correlation between "book" intelligence and social intelligence, either good or bad. I think it's unfair to categorize a 4.0 student as emotionally unintelligent. I, for one, am proud that I'm able to be a good student yet feel confident in my ability to lead.
 
rf15 said:
Last point - DS was also offered an AF 4 yr with same mediocre stats that met min for gpa and sat. Offered for any degree (nontech or whatever he wants). I think was based on overall well rounded resume with very high PT + making an impact during interview.

---- bottom line is that you must meet the min for sat and gpa , but you need to rock all the other categorys.

I'm sure there may be some other viewpoints on this one - but thats my experience after going thru the process over the last 2 years.

(AF was interesting - awarded scholarship for chinese degree on 2nd board - declined it after he changed mind - recompeted for any non-tech degree and was selected again on last board.)
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Your first posts could make applicants believe in miracles. This post proves divine intervention.

I don.t think I have ever heard of an applicant decline an AFROTC Scholarship, only to compete again the same year and ALAS receive a non tech 4 year scholarship.

So tell me was that a Type 1, or maybe a Type 7.

It's a good thing you didn't apply to any of that Ivy League stuff as you said.

What schools did you list for the AFROTC


EDIT
I apologize, I was reading your posts, the way they were written I thought you were the young applicant, reads like my son's texts, sorry for the confusion. You stated in your first post that you were an Academy graduate, which academy did you attend, Welcome to the board.
 
Not to divert the thread. AFROTC only asks for schools to guarantee that they do accept AFROTC scholarships, it has no bearing on getting a scholarship at all. AFROTC scholarship are transferrable to any college on their list.

That is just one of the major differences between AROTC and AFROTC.

That of course is also one of the reasons you can see such a large variance in academic stats between one candidate and another. The candidate that has a lower tier college compared to HYSPM, will have lower stats. Nobody is going to expect a 25 ACT to get into an Ivy, however for their college choices they may be matches.

The AFROTC system is from a nationalistic approach...highest scores win. I would say most AFROTC scholarship recipients currently in the system now would say they have little to no chance of receiving a scholarship with a 25. Statistically, they are around the 30 marker+ for Type 1.

The issue now and probably for next yr too is the economy. Many kids are applying for this route because this seems to be a way to pay for college. The more that apply, the higher the stats will go because the supply cannot meet the demand.

I would suspect that next yr with the DoD budget expected to decrease, you may see even fewer scholarships being awarded. I am not saying they will become non-existent, but it will be competitive.

The other issue will be the USMA. Both the AFA and USNA have announced that they will be aligning their class sizes because they are over the legal allotment of 4400. 95% of SA candidates apply for ROTC as plan B. If there will be less accepted into the SA, that means more will be going the ROTC path, yet if the ROTC program keeps the numbers even the same, you will see less of lower scoring candidates be offered a spot.

I always stress to AFROTC candidates to not look to see if they match the schools they are applying to, but to look at the stats for the avg AFA cadet and compete against them.

Our DS is a scholarship recipient, he is now a C300. He states flat out if he applied now, he highly doubts he would be awarded a scholarship, and honestly we agree. He had 1390 SAT, 33 or 34 ACT (can't remember), top 10% school rank, all APs offered, and over a 4.1 wgpa (3.68 uw). Plus all of the ECs from NHS, FHS, to TKD national medalist and life guard with 23 saves.
He is a non-tech major which is the real issue.

That is how competitive it has become for the AF now. Mainly due to force shape restructuring it has caused a ripple effect all the way down to scholarships.

For the class of 16. All you can do is make the most competitive resume out there, and make sure you have matches on your list.

As I have stated before also visit the BN, talk to the leadership there and discuss your true chances. They do not ever feel like they are being inconvenianced or intruded upon. This is part of their job.

Additionally, by discussing this with them, you get the opportunity to have a fresh pair of eyes reviewing your packet. A pair that knows from history what the avg packet looks like.

I think if you asked Marist and Clarkson what the stats for their cadets look like you may find 2 different lists, because they are matching to their college and the cadets that have been awarded for their school.

The double edge part of that sword is it can create confusion when you get too much info and try to make the resume a one size fits all situation.

The best part of the Army is there are so many different routes to get to that commissioning compared to other branches. Also, there are many different paths once you are commissioned regarding payback. For the AF it really is a 1 size fits all...you get one type of scholarship, and if you get commissioned, you will serve AD for at last 4 yrs ---not from commissioning date, but from AD, and if you attend a career school (UPT, UNT) your clock does not start ticking until you graduate from there. In other words, graduate May, go AD in Mar, graduate UPT the following Feb, your clock starts @21 months after your commissioning.

I believe the Army is the same for their fliers too, but I leave that to the experts to confirm. I only stated this since many candidates enter under the misconception that all they have to serve is 4 yrs from commissioning, when in fact the scenario I just gave for the AF, would make it close to 12 yrs (current payback for pilot I have been told is 10), add in those 21 months and you are going to be 34 when you can leave.

It is always important to read the details, because usually that is where the devil is hiding.
 
Does anyone know what happens to the scholarships that don't get accepted. I know there are some kids who are getting multiple offers from different services. Does the money go to the schools or back with CC to be offered to the next person down the list? Thanks.
 
Pima - I personally know two kids who still got AFROTC scholarships this year with stats VERY comparable to your son's. My son got his AFROTC scholarship in the first board, and his friend, who applied earlier, was passed over by the first board but then got his scholarship from the second board. Both got Type 7. However, they did both request engineering/technical majors. (Ironically, the one passed over in the first AFROTC board subsequently got an appointment to the Air Force Academy, but the other one, my son, was denied by the Naval Academy. They both only applied to one academy.) Very random.
 
morgan0704 said:
Does anyone know what happens to the scholarships that don't get accepted. I know there are some kids who are getting multiple offers from different services. Does the money go to the schools or back with CC to be offered to the next person down the list? Thanks.
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The way we were told it worked in the past was that the funds left over from CC Scholarships that were declined gets distibuted to Brigades to be distributed again to Batallions. These funds would then be available for campus scholarships to be offered by the individual schools.

Now that being said it could be different this year due to the budget tightening. CC may just hold on to the extra funds and wait to see how the Budget shakes out this year. They could give scholarships to some applicants that were not selected on the final board, I would doubt that will happen though.

They could just wait until the school year starts to decide what to do with the extra funds. This year shaped up to be so different then previous years that I guess anything could happen. We will just have to wait and see.
 
A couple highly qualified posters on this board got 3 yr AD scholarships, and their PMS told them if CC can "scrape together" the funds that they would be upgraded to a 3.5 AD yr scholarship - if funds were available this fall.
 
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