Navy files homicide charges against commanders of 2 ships in deadly crashes

[pleber16]

I still don't understand how a billion ship which can simultaneously track multiple small objects travelling at supersonic speeds at various altitudes can't calculate the vector of a shopping mall travelling at 20 kts.

Comparing apples and oranges there...different systems, different departments, different people.

 

[Hurricane12]

Isn't preparing the crew to sail a commanders job? If not, what is their job? A parallel to Captain McVay? This is more akin to Captain Schettino, [Costa Concordia]
I personally would like to know why lives were lost.

Yes, it is. However, there are some things outside of their control, like a ship being undermanned or not being allocated the proper resources or scheduling to conduct training or repairs, etc. that fall on Big Navy's shoulders. A CO can kick and scream and holler about not getting what he/she needs, but ultimately in the eyes of the Big Navy, that boat needs go when it's supposed to.

 

[Alaskan]

Isn't preparing the crew to sail a commanders job? If not, what is their job? A parallel to Captain McVay? This is more akin to Captain Schettino, [Costa Concordia]
I personally would like to know why lives were lost.

Yes, it is. However, there are some things outside of their control, like a ship being undermanned or not being allocated the proper resources or scheduling to conduct training or repairs, etc. that fall on Big Navy's shoulders. A CO can kick and scream and holler about not getting what he/she needs, but ultimately in the eyes of the Big Navy, that boat needs go when it's supposed to.

Is that what happened? It was undermanned? Didn’t have proper resources? I worked in the private sector on ships for many years, you always have someone competent watching in the wheel house even if you’re running a skeleton crew. Hard to believe running into another ship is the “BIG Navy’s” fault.

 

[cb7893]

Comparing apples and oranges there...different systems, different departments, different people.

Really? I had no idea. That sounds like an answer given to a congressional investigative committee by someone trying to obfuscate the question of why a billion dollar ship can't track and avoid another vessel, the size of a shopping mall. If your username indicates your place in the military bureacracy, you'll go far.

One system is used by Naval vessels that track incoming aircraft, missiles, etc.

The other--the one that was apparently not turned on, not working, or not being monitored is used by thousands of commercial vessels, manned by different crew members.

 

[LurkingQuietly]

Yes, it is. However, there are some things outside of their control, like a ship being undermanned or not being allocated the proper resources or scheduling to conduct training or repairs, etc. that fall on Big Navy's shoulders.

Expect every project you work on in life to be undermanned or lack enough resources. It the Project Manager's job to figure it out...or in this case the Captains. I guess this is why they only pick the best to attend/graduate the USNA. You better be able to make it work with a roll of duct tape, a box a paper clips, a Bic pen, and a stick match. If my daughter or son is underway on that ship, and you are the Captain, I want you first thought in your head in the morning to be how I can keep those sailors safe today, and the last thought before you fall asleep to be their safety while you're asleep.

 

[NTWLF ONE]

Not sure if we will ever see the actual forensics as some of it may be privileged information. Unlike the NTSB which deep dives inside the PED of an involved crew member, not sure if the JAGMAN, BOI or GCM proceedings will publish the raw data or not. Obviously the Navy has seen enough to convene the Article 32 pre-trial investigation.

What I find interesting is that criminal charges were preferred against the CO and three junior officers on the Fitzgerald but only the CO on the McCain.

 

[raimius]

Expect every project you work on in life to be undermanned or lack enough resources. It the Project Manager's job to figure it out...or in this case the Captains. I guess this is why they only pick the best to attend/graduate the USNA. You better be able to make it work with a roll of duct tape, a box a paper clips, a Bic pen, and a stick match. If my daughter or son is underway on that ship, and you are the Captain, I want you first thought in your head in the morning to be how I can keep those sailors safe today, and the last thought before you fall asleep to be their safety while you're asleep.

True, but there comes a point where "making it work" and "doing more with less" stops working. Some people with more insight to Navy ops than I have are saying that line has been crossed. Perhaps they are correct.

 

[Hurricane12]

True, but there comes a point where "making it work" and "doing more with less" stops working. Some people with more insight to Navy ops than I have are saying that line has been crossed. Perhaps they are correct.

That's more what I'm getting at. The people who are most critical about the way the Surface Navy is conducting itself are my SWO friends...

 

[LurkingQuietly]

That's more what I'm getting at. The people who are most critical about the way the Surface Navy is conducting itself are my SWO friends...

The Fitzgerald was hit by a freighter in the middle of the ocean. That's called asleep at the wheel. Come on, if you want to talk about being critical of the way the Navy is conducting its surface warfare, we can do that. But if you're saying the Navy is in such disarray that it can't transit a ship through open waters, you're going to lose credibility.

 

[raimius]

I think the argument is that chronic understaffing and full schedules lead to fatigued crews without proficiency and currency in tasks, which increases the risk of basic mistakes.

 

[momx3]

Isn't preparing the crew to sail a commanders job? If not, what is their job? A parallel to Captain McVay? This is more akin to Captain Schettino, [Costa Concordia]
I personally would like to know why lives were lost.

Yes, it is. However, there are some things outside of their control, like a ship being undermanned or not being allocated the proper resources or scheduling to conduct training or repairs, etc. that fall on Big Navy's shoulders. A CO can kick and scream and holler about not getting what he/she needs, but ultimately in the eyes of the Big Navy, that boat needs go when it's supposed to.

I tend to agree with this statement, but it also brings to mind the narrative of the sailor who hid in catacombs. From what I read of the published report it appears there are serious systemic problems. No matter what it is a tragedy and one can only hope it brings about real, needed change and not just smoke and mirrors for the public eye.

 

[Humey]

I understand sailors died but are criminal charges the correct way to go. I dont know what happened or even begin to understand if someone told me but it would seem to me that unless someone was being criminally reckless, that criminal charges seem overkill. I will even admit that I have no idea what being criminall reckless even is. I also understand this this is military law and maybe different from civilian criminal law. I would be interested to know what they exactly did that was criminal. They are charging several people from the same boat. How could they all be criminally responsible unless they were acting in concert

Slamming into another vessel at sea resulting in loss of life is criminal. Drive your car down the road and slam into someone it’s gonna be manslaughter if your negligence resulted in a fatality. With command comes responsibility.

Not always. There is something called an accident. Most car crashes even with a loss of life isnt automatically considered criminal. It all depends why the accident occurred. Driving drunk or stoned or texting would probably be considered criminally negligent. Changing lanes and not seeing a car isnt. Was everyone playing with their iphones all at the same time, did everyone leave the bridge to go to the bathroom? That is why I say I dont even begin to understand the failure that occurred. I can see many scenarios in a car crash were the driver who caused it exercise enough care and still screwed up. Happens all the time, which is why we dont see our jail full of people who were in accidents.

 

[Humey]

I dont know what happened or even begin to understand if someone told me but it would seem to me that unless someone was being criminally reckless, that criminal charges seem overkill. I will even admit that I have no idea what being criminally reckless even is... I would be interested to know what they exactly did that was criminal.

In most states, this would be criminal negligence if it resulted in injury or death.

Yep, especially if the forensics find activity on the personal electronic devices of those bridge watch standers......

We should all wait for the forensics.

I still don't understand how a billion ship which can simultaneously track multiple small objects travelling at supersonic speeds at various altitudes can't calculate the vector of a shopping mall travelling at 20 kts.

not if it was an accident

 

[Alaskan]

I understand sailors died but are criminal charges the correct way to go. I dont know what happened or even begin to understand if someone told me but it would seem to me that unless someone was being criminally reckless, that criminal charges seem overkill. I will even admit that I have no idea what being criminall reckless even is. I also understand this this is military law and maybe different from civilian criminal law. I would be interested to know what they exactly did that was criminal. They are charging several people from the same boat. How could they all be criminally responsible unless they were acting in concert

Slamming into another vessel at sea resulting in loss of life is criminal. Drive your car down the road and slam into someone it’s gonna be manslaughter if your negligence resulted in a fatality. With command comes responsibility.

Not always. There is something called an accident. Most car crashes even with a loss of life isnt automatically considered criminal. It all depends why the accident occurred. Driving drunk or stoned or texting would probably be considered criminally negligent. Changing lanes and not seeing a car isnt. Was everyone playing with their iphones all at the same time, did everyone leave the bridge to go to the bathroom? That is why I say I dont even begin to understand the failure that occurred. I can see many scenarios in a car crash were the driver who caused it exercise enough care and still screwed up. Happens all the time, which is why we dont see our jail full of people who were in accidents.

Accidents are rarely actually accidents.

 

[Humey]

I understand sailors died but are criminal charges the correct way to go. I dont know what happened or even begin to understand if someone told me but it would seem to me that unless someone was being criminally reckless, that criminal charges seem overkill. I will even admit that I have no idea what being criminall reckless even is. I also understand this this is military law and maybe different from civilian criminal law. I would be interested to know what they exactly did that was criminal. They are charging several people from the same boat. How could they all be criminally responsible unless they were acting in concert

Slamming into another vessel at sea resulting in loss of life is criminal. Drive your car down the road and slam into someone it’s gonna be manslaughter if your negligence resulted in a fatality. With command comes responsibility.

Not always. There is something called an accident. Most car crashes even with a loss of life isnt automatically considered criminal. It all depends why the accident occurred. Driving drunk or stoned or texting would probably be considered criminally negligent. Changing lanes and not seeing a car isnt. Was everyone playing with their iphones all at the same time, did everyone leave the bridge to go to the bathroom? That is why I say I dont even begin to understand the failure that occurred. I can see many scenarios in a car crash were the driver who caused it exercise enough care and still screwed up. Happens all the time, which is why we dont see our jail full of people who were in accidents.

Accidents are rarely actually accidents.

Yes, usually someone does something stupid but not intentional. I dont know if they ever released what actually caused the accident, but it doesn seem strange that several people are being charged. It would mean that each one different something wrong that contributed to the crash. I would assume if the Captain tells an ensign (for example) to turn the boat to starboard and then crashes that the ensign wouldnt be responsble as he followed orders (assuming he had no knowledge there was another boat near them)

 

[Alaskan]

I understand sailors died but are criminal charges the correct way to go. I dont know what happened or even begin to understand if someone told me but it would seem to me that unless someone was being criminally reckless, that criminal charges seem overkill. I will even admit that I have no idea what being criminall reckless even is. I also understand this this is military law and maybe different from civilian criminal law. I would be interested to know what they exactly did that was criminal. They are charging several people from the same boat. How could they all be criminally responsible unless they were acting in concert

Slamming into another vessel at sea resulting in loss of life is criminal. Drive your car down the road and slam into someone it’s gonna be manslaughter if your negligence resulted in a fatality. With command comes responsibility.

Not always. There is something called an accident. Most car crashes even with a loss of life isnt automatically considered criminal. It all depends why the accident occurred. Driving drunk or stoned or texting would probably be considered criminally negligent. Changing lanes and not seeing a car isnt. Was everyone playing with their iphones all at the same time, did everyone leave the bridge to go to the bathroom? That is why I say I dont even begin to understand the failure that occurred. I can see many scenarios in a car crash were the driver who caused it exercise enough care and still screwed up. Happens all the time, which is why we dont see our jail full of people who were in accidents.

Accidents are rarely actually accidents.

Yes, usually someone does something stupid but not intentional. I dont know if they ever released what actually caused the accident, but it doesn seem strange that several people are being charged. It would mean that each one different something wrong that contributed to the crash. I would assume if the Captain tells an ensign (for example) to turn the boat to starboard and then crashes that the ensign wouldnt be responsble as he followed orders (assuming he had no knowledge there was another boat near them)

I’ve worked in shipping lanes, large vessels are always in contact with each other while they’re are still miles apart. It’s never left up to a last second “swerve”. You both decide how you’ll pass way ahead of time. In port I’ve watched a coast guard cutter fold up their bow like a pop can running into a piling on captains orders while docking. Definitely not the helmsman at fault.

 

[LineInTheSand]

The Navy is either bad at driving ships or bad at doing its job. There are no other excuses.

 

[kp2001]

The Navy is either bad at driving ships or bad at doing its job. There are no other excuses.

It has been several years since I sailed, but in my experience dealing with warships (not necessarily MSC ships) was always the most difficult when I was a Third Mate. The only vessels more difficult were fishing vessels in congested waters. Numerous reasons why this was the case, but in general communication tended to be difficult to initiate and they didn’t always follow what actions one would normally expect in crossing, overtaking, or meeting situations.

I think ultimately these accidents are a result of years and years of slowly degrading the training and experience of our surface warfare officers. It came to a point where things would be fine 99% of the time, but we didn’t have that “reserve” and it finally caught up to us. These accidents were a symptom, not the disease and hopefully we will now cure the “disease” to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

 

[LineInTheSand]

The Navy is either bad at driving ships or bad at doing its job. There are no other excuses.

It has been several years since I sailed, but in my experience dealing with warships (not necessarily MSC ships) was always the most difficult when I was a Third Mate. The only vessels more difficult were fishing vessels in congested waters. Numerous reasons why this was the case, but in general communication tended to be difficult to initiate and they didn’t always follow what actions one would normally expect in crossing, overtaking, or meeting situations.

I think ultimately these accidents are a result of years and years of slowly degrading the training and experience of our surface warfare officers. It came to a point where things would be fine 99% of the time, but we didn’t have that “reserve” and it finally caught up to us. These accidents were a symptom, not the disease and hopefully we will now cure the “disease” to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

I remember a USNA YP doing MOB drills near the entrance to the Cape Cod Canal..... all while boats/ships were trying to enter the canal....

Right up there with a Navy ships telling you what to do in a situation...

The Navy isn't under funded, and the Navy isn't undermanned.

 

[pleber16]

I remember a USNA YP doing MOB drills near the entrance to the Cape Cod Canal..... all while boats/ships were trying to enter the canal....

Right up there with a Navy ships telling you what to do in a situation...

The Navy isn't under funded, and the Navy isn't undermanned.

I’m not totally sure where the comparison was going, but the expected competency of a YP versus a Navy ship aren’t even comparable...