Plan B Question

vadad23 said:
Does anyone know how often do injuries before I-day or during Plebe summer actually sideline a candidate for the year?
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No one can tell you with any certainty "how often" that happens. However, I can tell you with absolute certainty that it does happen...as it did with my own DS just three weeks before I-Day.
You can't stop life nor should you, but you can apply a certain amount of bubble wrap...do you really want to go downhill skiing, take the old skateboard out for a ride, etc.? Enjoy the spring and senior year but use that bright noggin providence blessed you with and a little common sense.
 
I am a long time "stalker" of this forum but first time poster. I tremendously appreciate all of the advice, opinions and information I have received over the past year. I wanted to offer my perspective on putting a deposit down at a Plan B school. My DD received her appointment to USNA in October but we had her apply to other schools as well. She has accepted her appointment but we don't want her to miss out on a year (or semester) of higher education should she have a freak accident and break her leg in May. DD, in keeping with the high moral and ethical standards of a future mid, has been adamant about not accepting a slot at another school without full disclosure. I recently spoke with the directors of admission at her two other choices (both quite prestigious schools) and they both said the same thing. First, they indicated how impressed they were with my daughter's integrity for not wanting to reserve a slot that she probably would not end up taking because apparently other students reserve slots for far less ethical reasons (e.g. wanting to attend summer orientation at two schools and decide which they like better). The admissions directors then said that they expect "summer melt" (the admissions term for students who accept and then withdraw because they got off another wait list, decide they can't afford it, etc.) and plan for a certain amount of it when they make their admissions offers. They suggested that we pay our deposit and then just let them know when we knew she would not be attending. We will not receive our deposit back. We feel we have been given permission by her other top choice school to go this route and our DD is satisfied that she is pursuing this in an ethical manner. As others have said, being open and honest with the Plan B school seems to allow for an option should the bubble wrap fail while maintaining the ethical standards that we hope all mids have.
 
shock-n-awe said:
I didn't see this mentioned, so here is another thought....

The biggest concern I have for DS having a plan B school on the hook isn't if he changes his mind PS, it's if he were to get injured and had to be turned away. At that point he would need a plan for the fall to attend another college, and his 4yr ROTC would probably be gone as a back up as well if he's injured. So his backup with scholarship would then be in play.
He currently doesn't have anything else on the hook, but it does concern me that an injury could really mess up everything he has worked so hard for and earned.
What would the kid do then?
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You could ask Plan B school if they would be willing to defer admission to Spring 18 and see what they say. They are often willing to do this because it will open up another slot for their fall class and in the Spring, they can backfill a kid who didn't return after the 1st semester. If they say "yes" I would go ahead and take the option. If your DS gets injured and has to give up his appointment, he will have a spot in the Spring class and can move forward. Just a thought.
 
NavyLady64 said:
shock-n-awe said:
I didn't see this mentioned, so here is another thought....

The biggest concern I have for DS having a plan B school on the hook isn't if he changes his mind PS, it's if he were to get injured and had to be turned away. At that point he would need a plan for the fall to attend another college, and his 4yr ROTC would probably be gone as a back up as well if he's injured. So his backup with scholarship would then be in play.
He currently doesn't have anything else on the hook, but it does concern me that an injury could really mess up everything he has worked so hard for and earned.
What would the kid do then?
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You could ask Plan B school if they would be willing to defer admission to Spring 18 and see what they say. They are often willing to do this because it will open up another slot for their fall class and in the Spring, they can backfill a kid who didn't return after the 1st semester. If they say "yes" I would go ahead and take the option. If your DS gets injured and has to give up his appointment, he will have a spot in the Spring class and can move forward. Just a thought.
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Let me clarify - don't do this until you have an appointment, of course!
 
NavyLady64 said:
You could ask Plan B school if they would be willing to defer admission to Spring If your DS gets injured and has to give up his appointment, he will have a spot in the Spring class and can move forward. Just a thought.
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In theory, I suppose that would work but with one major caveat....IF the DS got injured and turned away but was determined to re-apply to the SA the following year and IF he did, he would be sitting out fall college semester and have nothing to submit anything about.
 
Sydney C. said:
NavyLady64 said:
You could ask Plan B school if they would be willing to defer admission to Spring If your DS gets injured and has to give up his appointment, he will have a spot in the Spring class and can move forward. Just a thought.
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In theory, I suppose that would work but with one major caveat....IF the DS got injured and turned away but was determined to re-apply to the SA the following year and IF he did, he would be sitting out fall college semester and have nothing to submit anything about.
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Do you have a local state college in which he could enroll? Otherwise I guess you're left with simply asking the Plan B college if they would be willing to hold his seat until a date certain (last day + 1 of PS?). Some really selective schools may not though, admittedly. Here's hoping 1) you get the appointment and 2) he doesn't get hurt!
 
OK. Final update on this after all the feedback which I greatly appreciate.

Called around to the top schools that DD had considered going to before finally deciding to accept appointment at USNA. Essentially asked them for their "advice" in what to do about situation where DD would have to do PS and very frankly discussed implications of potential injuries, change of heart after PS, etc. Also very truthfully said that we had strongly considered/wanted to go there as well but did not want to hold hostage a spot that we may not be using and keep another deserving student from attending off the waitlist. Always asked for an associate / assistant dean at each admissions office. My wife had approached someone from the admissions office at one of the schools during an admitted student visit and brought up the topic and got a fairly hostile response. Needless to say, even if we did not receive an appointment at USNA, after that interaction we scratched that school off the list with a bad taste in our mouth. In retrospect, probably was a junior staff or otherwise in the admission office but probably good idea to go higher up the administrative chain for this type of conversation should you choose to take this route.

There were 4 schools in total I had called. We had already turned down offers from some of the schools lower on DD list. Of the ones called, 2 were highly regarded state schools, both ranked in the top 30 or so of top schools in the country. The school lower on the list said no problem at all in terms of putting down deposit and having change of heart later. They have these sort of things often and they usually plan for a certain amount of attrition during the summer for this exact scenario. Also, they said for this such special situation, they would completely understand. The more competitive of the 2 state schools said essentially no....you have to choose by the deadline.

Of the 2 private schools, the one in the top 10 of the country said essentially no but if things did not work out for some reason(e.g. injury), could re-approach them and see if they could accommodate given all the wait list and such even late into the summer. The other private school essentially said no as well.

In the end, we are going to put a deposit down with the solid but 2nd choice state school as a Plan B. They are open to it and fully understanding and supportive. Given their support and openness to it, makes me think that this would be a great alternative that would welcome DD in the unlikely situation of an injury or change of heart. Would be very happy to be there in this scenario and grateful of their openness.

That said, there's also the consideration that since it's not the other "top" school that she could potentially have chosen over USNA, the possibility of using it as a "escape hatch" during the rigors of plebe year are lessened I think.

Thanks to all in the SAF for your advice and support!
 
Not trying to mock anyone as I think being ethical in how you deal with this is very important. Having said that, none of these colleges and Universities would give you the same time and consideration if they were had to deal with your child in a reverse situation. The schools accept more than they have space for because they know not everyone is going to accept. They also know that even those who accept are going to back out between acceptance and the start of school. They all have waiting lists which means that there will be a supply of students available if they havent filled all of their spots. Everyone who accepts pays the deposit and most schools dont return it if you back out. So in the end, the schools will fill up all of their spots, will take in more deposit money than they should and anyone who really wanted to get into the school will eventually get in if they are willing to wait. The schools who complain about ethics are playing a BS game because in their minds every situation is supposed to work in their favor. There is being ethical and there is being played
 
RedDragon said:
Some schools will be kind.. We put down deposits at two excellent schools for both boys and when they reported for I day and Rday we(my wife who can be more persuasive) spoke to admissions. Both schools refunded deposits and only because both boys were at academies... Perhaps not the norm but it's worth the try.
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We had opposite experience. Plan B was upset and high school found out and got pissed. Deposit was not returned.
 
Humey said:
Not trying to mock anyone as I think being ethical in how you deal with this is very important. Having said that, none of these colleges and Universities would give you the same time and consideration if they were had to deal with your child in a reverse situation. The schools accept more than they have space for because they know not everyone is going to accept. They also know that even those who accept are going to back out between acceptance and the start of school. They all have waiting lists which means that there will be a supply of students available if they havent filled all of their spots. Everyone who accepts pays the deposit and most schools dont return it if you back out. So in the end, the schools will fill up all of their spots, will take in more deposit money than they should and anyone who really wanted to get into the school will eventually get in if they are willing to wait. The schools who complain about ethics are playing a BS game because in their minds every situation is supposed to work in their favor. There is being ethical and there is being played
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The colleges have leverage and use it to their advantage shamelessly. However, colleges (at least competitive ones) are the least hurt by double depositors. The ones harmed are the students that would otherwise have been offered a spot earlier in the process and the high school counselors that have lost their ability to advocate on behalf of future students because of the damage caused to the relationship.
 
I dont disagree. Yes there will be students who could have had a spot earlier but I dont see that being a major problem. Its no different than the academies letting you know the last possible day which is after you need to accept the civilians colleges. In the end you have to worry about yourself as no one else is going to worry about you. Not saying you should screw someone over or hurt someone to give in order to benefit yourself, but its not the student who created this situation. The academies and the colleges have overlapping time frames and you need to deal with the way the benefits you. If it is such a problem than the two groups should work it out so that doing this isnt even a necessity. As for the high school counselor, not sure why they would be penalize for this as they have no control over the situation, but on the assumption that it would create problem, it is what it is

jl123 said:
The colleges have leverage and use it to their advantage shamelessly. However, colleges (at least competitive ones) are the least hurt by double depositors. The ones harmed are the students that would otherwise have been offered a spot earlier in the process and the high school counselors that have lost their ability to advocate on behalf of future students because of the damage caused to the relationship.
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Vadad23 - Thanks so much for coming back and posting your firsthand experience. This is very helpful info to read, as this topic comes up year after year and the ethics debate rages on. For folks to come back and state what they actually did and what their outcome was is very helpful. Especially for those using the search function in the future. Although I have no doubt this same discussion will take place again next spring in a new thread!


Humey said:
In the end you have to worry about yourself as no one else is going to worry about you. The academies and the colleges have overlapping time frames and you need to deal with the way the benefits you.
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This is exactly what I have preached on this topic for years. Very sound advice.
 
Vadad and all - thanks much for this. I am a little late to this party - but thinking through this very thing this past weekend, and found this very helpful. My DS decide on USNA this past weekend. He was thinking of a few other colleges (complicated because he was thinking of ROTC at those schools too), and I'm trying to decide whether we should have any sort of plan B for an injury or something at one of those schools. I find myself watching his baseball games this spring with it in the back of my mind - if he has a collision at the plate and breaks something, etc....I'm a USMA grad from 82, and I don't remember this all being an issue then - but different era now. I think we are going to make some calls to these other schools and see what the reaction might be for putting down a deposit, with knowledge he's only going if some injury or other unforeseen event occurs.
 
I'm not sure I understand the use of plan B in this context. I see the "Plan B" in its common usage here as a back-up to a TWE event for a USNA application. Everybody has one or more such Plan B schools, because the odds of getting into USNA are long in the great majority of cases.

The Idea of having a back up school in case your daughter chooses not to continue on at the USNA ,or is involuntarily detached from the USNA also makes sense. That said, I wonder about ND as that backup. We kept our daughters options open with a deposit for first quarter at the University of Washington. Our DD's plan Bs were Ivy League schools, but she understood that once she received and accepted an appointment to the USNA the Plan Bs went away, and the UW would be a "MartinBaker option"
covering the continuation of her schooling if she left the USNA (with other options to be explored for the following year). I'd expect that ND is a pretty expensive soft landing school. If you don't mind the advice, I'd choose a cheaper option (state school) and definately tell your daughter that its really just a worst case back-up if she can't get through PS.
 
skippers said:
Vadad and all - thanks much for this. I am a little late to this party - but thinking through this very thing this past weekend, and found this very helpful. My DS decide on USNA this past weekend. He was thinking of a few other colleges (complicated because he was thinking of ROTC at those schools too), and I'm trying to decide whether we should have any sort of plan B for an injury or something at one of those schools. I find myself watching his baseball games this spring with it in the back of my mind - if he has a collision at the plate and breaks something, etc....I'm a USMA grad from 82, and I don't remember this all being an issue then - but different era now. I think we are going to make some calls to these other schools and see what the reaction might be for putting down a deposit, with knowledge he's only going if some injury or other unforeseen event occurs.
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Completely understand and appreciate both sides of this debate and honestly could have seen us going down the path of either side. No judging or taking sides here either and cannot/would not fault anyone on either side of this. That said given that this is an "insurance policy" of sorts for us, it is what we feel most comfortable with. It really is a fairly low risk event of serious injury before or during PS. I know it happens every year but that is a risk that I hope we can mitigate and we have a reasonable Plan B as an insurance policy. At the CVW recently, the Dean of admissions did note that it was fairly rare to send people home during PS even with an injury at USNA. He did note a handful of issues with new or unreported tattoos being discovered and being an issue on I day! Don't know how to insure against that! ;-)

Part of our consideration besides the potential ethical issues of holding onto a potential spot from someone on the waitlist until August is the practical implications it might have with future relationships from that college and the high school. Have found through this whole application process that relationships between schools and colleges are definitely a consideration in admissions. "Feeder" schools for certain elite colleges definitely exist and I believe is partly due to the relationship between counselors & college admission officers and the past history. In the situation where the college is "upset", there might be implications for students down the road. It might even be so for us if we ever wanted to apply there for grad school.
 
vadad23 said:
Completely understand and appreciate both sides of this debate and honestly could have seen us going down the path of either side. No judging or taking sides here either and cannot/would not fault anyone on either side of this. That said given that this is an "insurance policy" of sorts for us, it is what we feel most comfortable with. It really is a fairly low risk event of serious injury before or during PS. I know it happens every year but that is a risk that I hope we can mitigate and we have a reasonable Plan B as an insurance policy. At the CVW recently, the Dean of admissions did note that it was fairly rare to send people home during PS even with an injury at USNA. He did note a handful of issues with new or unreported tattoos being discovered and being an issue on I day! Don't know how to insure against that! ;-)

Part of our consideration besides the potential ethical issues of holding onto a potential spot from someone on the waitlist until August is the practical implications it might have with future relationships from that college and the high school. Have found through this whole application process that relationships between schools and colleges are definitely a consideration in admissions. "Feeder" schools for certain elite colleges definitely exist and I believe is partly due to the relationship between counselors & college admission officers and the past history. In the situation where the college is "upset", there might be implications for students down the road. It might even be so for us if we ever wanted to apply there for grad school.
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I'm of exactly the same mind - makes perfect sense...we are in a very similar situation. We are going to inform both out HS counselor as well as the college. For us, really just want a back up in the event he suffers an injury prior to I-Day. After that, including a change of mind during the summer, not as concerned - kinda look at that as on us, and we'll cross that bridge then if we have to. Thanks so much for the input - very helpful in working through this.
 
Humey said:
I dont disagree. Yes there will be students who could have had a spot earlier but I dont see that being a major problem. Its no different than the academies letting you know the last possible day which is after you need to accept the civilians colleges. In the end you have to worry about yourself as no one else is going to worry about you. Not saying you should screw someone over or hurt someone to give in order to benefit yourself, but its not the student who created this situation. The academies and the colleges have overlapping time frames and you need to deal with the way the benefits you. If it is such a problem than the two groups should work it out so that doing this isnt even a necessity. As for the high school counselor, not sure why they would be penalize for this as they have no control over the situation, but on the assumption that it would create problem, it is what it is
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  1. Of course you disagree. ;) Everything you wrote after "I don't disagree" was a statement of disagreement.
  2. Not sure the academies are trying commission officers that put their needs ahead of everyone else.
  3. High school counselors work hard to establish and maintain relationships with college admissions officers. Applicant behavior can reflect well and poorly on the counselor and the school. Future applicants rejected by that college because of the behavior of previous applicants from that high school will not likely brush it off as "it is what it is".
  4. There is a real chance of getting caught. Those who do get caught end up sweating bullets, praying it is not reported to the academy. Some of those went ahead with the secret Plan B because they read on this forum how sensible it was.
  5. Timing of offers/appointments is not an issue. It is formally recognized that a student can withdraw from a previously accepted offer when a preferred offer materializes. The issue is with holding on to two or more offers after the specified deadline.
 
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skippers said:
I'm of exactly the same mind - makes perfect sense...we are in a very similar situation. We are going to inform both out HS counselor as well as the college. For us, really just want a back up in the event he suffers an injury prior to I-Day. After that, including a change of mind during the summer, not as concerned - kinda look at that as on us, and we'll cross that bridge then if we have to. Thanks so much for the input - very helpful in working through this.
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Not to be redundant, but DS found himself in a similar situation. He has accepted his appointment to USNA but still wanted the Plan B "insurance policy" against injury before reporting on I-Day. His 4 Yr NROTC scholarship was placed at Duke and he was accepted. We contacted Duke Admissions and explained what our intentions were, and that we would inform them on June 30th after he reported on I-day. We likened it as if he was accepted off a Wait List from another school. They were appreciative of our honesty but politely said they could not accommodate us. We then contacted Norwich University Admissions and had the same conversation. They completely understood and will work with us. We will have to pay the $250 deposit and will look at it as the premium payment on an insurance policy which is exactly what it is. DS wanted to be honest with all parties involved and feels good about his actions.
 
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