Rat riot

Sure, that was just to show that this was not the first time this had happened. It probably won't be the last. Hopefully the whole place won't be completely neutered by the knee-jerk reactions of the helicopter crowd.

And if we can now all agree that nothing of any real consequence took place, no one deserves to be sued or prosecuted, the system is working as it should, and a week from now everyone will get a big laugh out of this entire fiasco, I'll be happy to cancel my log in name to this site and get back to living my life in a world where VMI is still the best college in the U.S.
 
New Message from the Chief of Staff & Inspector General

"Parents Council—

Some of you have heard from concerned parents regarding Sunday night’s “Rat riot” event. Here is some information for your use and dissemination.

On Sunday evening at approximately 11:15 PM the Rats were being escorted by cadre to Cocke Hall for an authorized, scheduled 12 minute sweat party. The Third Class was absent from barracks and in Cocke Hall. As they were leaving the fourth stoop, one company of Rats “broke free” and started going to the rooms on the third stoop. This quickly progressed throughout barracks and then we had Rats entering Third Class rooms, whereupon they began throwing hays and other items into the courtyards. When this happened, cadre reacted to quell it and First Classmen went up to the third stoop to assist. During the course of getting them out of the Third Class rooms, off the third stoop, and back up to their rooms, there were some injuries—fortunately not severe.

This event is completely unacceptable. Within the Corps, the First Class leadership launched an investigation which uncovered several Rats who had planned and instigated this. Those cases are being handled by the General Committee system, and already some punishments have been handed down for those responsible. It is clear from Facebook entries who the instigators were. We will also deal accordingly if we discover any upper class cadets involved in instigating this incident.

The Commandant’s staff and the Inspector General (Col Grace) are also investigating. In particular, the IG is investigating an incident leading to one of the injuries. Any upper class cadet found responsible for misconduct leading to an injury will be dealt with swiftly. That investigation is nearing conclusion. On Wednesday, 19 October the Commandant addressed this with the Rat Class in JM Hall. He has also spoken to the First Class leadership at length about this.

“Rat Riots” are something that started a few years ago. This isn’t a long time tradition like Break-out or anything of the sort. Within the Corps, it has been viewed as somewhat of a “tradition” that helps Rats bond into a class. It is not approved, authorized, encouraged, or sanctioned at all by VMI or its leadership. In most prior occasions, the Rats would “run amok” for a bit and then go back to their rooms. This year, it turned somewhat combative and some injuries occurred during the ensuing melee, which we will not accept. Fortunately, this “tradition” only occurs once a year.

This is an issue of concern that we take very seriously for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the safety of cadets. We will work with the three classes and their leadership later this year in preparation for next year, and then work this in detail with next year’s Rats and the returning Old Corps.

We are also well aware that Rats are asked by many “When are you going to have your Rat Riot?” We know that some of those asking include parents, alumni, and cadets. We will address this as well in the summer newsletter to get parents to assist in squeezing out this “tradition.”

If you have any questions, please contact either the Chief of Staff or Inspector General. If any particular parents wish to speak to them or email them, they may do so directly. I’ll conclude by saying we are all disappointed in this event. It is not what VMI stands for, nor will we tolerate it.Thank you for assisting on this matter.

From the Chief of Staff

William R. Grace Colonel USMC (Ret)
VMI Inspector General and Title IX Coordinator
Parents Council Liaison
Duty Phone 540 464-7072
Fax 540 464-7056"
 
Most excellent post. Thank you. I am delighted to see VMI reach out to the parents' council in this manner. I would like to have seen a bit more detail on the nature and number of the injuries and types and number of punishments administered, but that is a nit. This is an excellent statement of commitment to end this "tradition." Who needs this aggravation. My DS's Ratmass will now have the dubious honor of being the class that made VMI really crack down on rat riots. That's a distinction of sorts, I guess, but I am not sure it is one that they really wished for.
 
thanks to HMQ -I was just in the midst of my copy and paste mode.
Its Homecoming weekend - I wish all the cadets and their dates a good time!
larrys mom
 
Well put together memo, thanks for the forward. Like I said in the past regarding the incident, I am sure VMI will investigate as needed and in essence do what they need to do. Brings a new appreciation level to the leadership and VMI as a whole.
 
It's a little bit more than the last few years. We threw out the Thirds' hays in '95.
 
"Parents Council—

Some of you have heard from concerned parents regarding Sunday night’s “Rat riot” event. Here is some information for your use and dissemination.

On Sunday evening at approximately 11:15 PM the Rats were being escorted by cadre to Cocke Hall for an authorized, scheduled 12 minute sweat party. The Third Class was absent from barracks and in Cocke Hall. As they were leaving the fourth stoop, one company of Rats “broke free” and started going to the rooms on the third stoop. This quickly progressed throughout barracks and then we had Rats entering Third Class rooms, whereupon they began throwing hays and other items into the courtyards. When this happened, cadre reacted to quell it and First Classmen went up to the third stoop to assist. During the course of getting them out of the Third Class rooms, off the third stoop, and back up to their rooms, there were some injuries—fortunately not severe.

This event is completely unacceptable. Within the Corps, the First Class leadership launched an investigation which uncovered several Rats who had planned and instigated this. Those cases are being handled by the General Committee system, and already some punishments have been handed down for those responsible. It is clear from Facebook entries who the instigators were. We will also deal accordingly if we discover any upper class cadets involved in instigating this incident.

The Commandant’s staff and the Inspector General (Col Grace) are also investigating. In particular, the IG is investigating an incident leading to one of the injuries. Any upper class cadet found responsible for misconduct leading to an injury will be dealt with swiftly. That investigation is nearing conclusion. On Wednesday, 19 October the Commandant addressed this with the Rat Class in JM Hall. He has also spoken to the First Class leadership at length about this.

“Rat Riots” are something that started a few years ago. This isn’t a long time tradition like Break-out or anything of the sort. Within the Corps, it has been viewed as somewhat of a “tradition” that helps Rats bond into a class. It is not approved, authorized, encouraged, or sanctioned at all by VMI or its leadership. In most prior occasions, the Rats would “run amok” for a bit and then go back to their rooms. This year, it turned somewhat combative and some injuries occurred during the ensuing melee, which we will not accept. Fortunately, this “tradition” only occurs once a year.

This is an issue of concern that we take very seriously for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the safety of cadets. We will work with the three classes and their leadership later this year in preparation for next year, and then work this in detail with next year’s Rats and the returning Old Corps.

We are also well aware that Rats are asked by many “When are you going to have your Rat Riot?” We know that some of those asking include parents, alumni, and cadets. We will address this as well in the summer newsletter to get parents to assist in squeezing out this “tradition.”

If you have any questions, please contact either the Chief of Staff or Inspector General. If any particular parents wish to speak to them or email them, they may do so directly. I’ll conclude by saying we are all disappointed in this event. It is not what VMI stands for, nor will we tolerate it.Thank you for assisting on this matter.

From the Chief of Staff

William R. Grace Colonel USMC (Ret)
VMI Inspector General and Title IX Coordinator
Parents Council Liaison
Duty Phone 540 464-7072
Fax 540 464-7056"

Thanks for posting this.
 
Yes, but I bet you didn't engage in a melee brawl with injuries with your cadre, right?

Breakout up the muddy hill had melee qualities. As you crawled up the hill, people dragged you around and shoved mud into your ears (and nose, mouth...it sucked). I think there might have been one kid with a broken shoulder, but mostly cuts and bruises. Nothing major, although they discontinued doing Breakout that way during my First Class year.

We didn't have a "Gangs of New York"-style brawl that I can recall. There was a smashing of plates in Crozet and some general disobedience (which resulted in a collective punishment).

I agree that it's a stupid "tradition."
 
Breakout up the muddy hill had melee qualities. As you crawled up the hill, people dragged you around and shoved mud into your ears (and nose, mouth...it sucked). I think there might have been one kid with a broken shoulder, but mostly cuts and bruises. Nothing major, although they discontinued doing Breakout that way during my First Class year.

We didn't have a "Gangs of New York"-style brawl that I can recall. There was a smashing of plates in Crozet and some general disobedience (which resulted in a collective punishment).

I agree that it's a stupid "tradition."

I read about those breakouts of yore and, of course, the ones before that in the melee fight from the first stoop to the 4th. I guess it has only been the last few years that breakout has moved to its current modality. I have also read that one of the reasons they switched to the current method is that too many kids were getting hurt. I mean, a broken shoulder, if bad enough, could abort at the outset a military career. So, what do think, sprog? If someone put you in charge with absolute power, would you switch back to the past and, if so, how far back? I am actually of two minds on this. I mean, even apart from combat, the military is full of very rough stuff and is not for the faint of heart. On the other hand, what's the point of adding needless risk before they ever get to basic training. I am really interested in your perspective on this.
 
I read about those breakouts of yore and, of course, the ones before that in the melee fight from the first stoop to the 4th. I guess it has only been the last few years that breakout has moved to its current modality. I have also read that one of the reasons they switched to the current method is that too many kids were getting hurt. I mean, a broken shoulder, if bad enough, could abort at the outset a military career. So, what do think, sprog? If someone put you in charge with absolute power, would you switch back to the past and, if so, how far back? I am actually of two minds on this. I mean, even apart from combat, the military is full of very rough stuff and is not for the faint of heart. On the other hand, what's the point of adding needless risk before they ever get to basic training. I am really interested in your perspective on this.

Break out when I was a Cadet was utterly idiotic- I have never before or since participated in something so pointless and so fraught with the possibility of someone getting seriously hurt falling off the stairwell. I wouldn't go back back to that if VMI was getting paid a fortune to turn the Ratline into a Reality show. Afte I left they went to the muddy hill concept- don't know about that- but the switch was in part to mitigate the risk that even a blindguy could see in literally fighting our way up the ice and slime (and worse) covered stairwells of the barracks.
There is a huge difference between acceptable risk incurred in the pursuit of legitimate training objectives and pointless risk taking. The I is in a much better posture today than it was in the past. The Ratline is still hard but it is controlled and it promotes teamwork and development more now than it did then, and I think that resurrection and breakout are light years better than what they did 35 years ago- an opinion which I believe every one of my brother Rats who have kids in the Corps now share.
 
Last edited:
I read about those breakouts of yore and, of course, the ones before that in the melee fight from the first stoop to the 4th. I guess it has only been the last few years that breakout has moved to its current modality. I have also read that one of the reasons they switched to the current method is that too many kids were getting hurt. I mean, a broken shoulder, if bad enough, could abort at the outset a military career. So, what do think, sprog? If someone put you in charge with absolute power, would you switch back to the past and, if so, how far back? I am actually of two minds on this. I mean, even apart from combat, the military is full of very rough stuff and is not for the faint of heart. On the other hand, what's the point of adding needless risk before they ever get to basic training. I am really interested in your perspective on this.

I think the move to how it is now is probably more appropriate. It's physically demanding yet there is less of a danger of physical injury.

I favor a situation that is physically and mentally taxing, yet with limited risk of physical harm. It should be a situation where there is limited sleep and a lot of exercise (forced marches, stoop runs, etc.) for about a 24-48 hour period, with things like group leadership problems thrown in to challenge them mentally.
 
I think the move to how it is now is probably more appropriate. It's physically demanding yet there is less of a danger of physical injury.

I favor a situation that is physically and mentally taxing, yet with limited risk of physical harm. It should be a situation where there is limited sleep and a lot of exercise (forced marches, stoop runs, etc.) for about a 24-48 hour period, with things like group leadership problems thrown in to challenge them mentally.

That is pretty much my opinion as well. I love the YouTube video of the latest breakout with the howitzer going off in the pre-dawn darkness and running them hard all day. It sounds all physical now, but the mental challenge idea is a good one. 48 hours is ideal. Of course, my DS would kill me if he heard me say any of this.
 
Break out when I was a Cadet was utterly idiotic- I have never before or since participated in something so pointless and so fraught with the possibility of someone getting seriously hurt falling off the stairwell. I wouldn't go back back to that if VMI was getting paid a fortune to turn the Ratline into a Reality show. Afte I left they went to the muddy hill concept- don't know about that- but the switch was in part to mitigate the risk that even a blindguy could see in literally fighting our way up the ice and slime (and worse) covered stairwells of the barracks.
There is a huge difference between acceptable risk incurred in the pursuit of legitimate training objectives and pointless risk taking. The I is in a much better posture today than it was in the past. The Ratline is still hard but it is controlled and it promotes teamwork and development more now than it did then, and I think that resurrection and breakout are light years better than what they did 35 years ago- an opinion which I believe every one of my brother Rats who have kids in the Corps now share.


Thanks Bruno. From the outside, the fight up the stairs looks and sounds insane. Hard to believe that it was ever tolerated. The line you draw concerning acceptable risk for a legitimate training objective makes so much sense that is hard to see how anyone could reasonably dispute the point. Nice to see professionalism -- it is what really impresses me at VMI. As to the Old Corps with kids, I imagine that their views have changed a lot with a kid at VMI. Amazing how having kids does that.... Certainly changed my perspectives on a lot of things.
 
Sprog-iirc, breakout took a one year hiatus from the mud hill (with '02breaking out at New Market in '99, right?) it then returned for '03-'07 (I think) before Peay decided he would stamp it out.

I would 100% return to a breakout hill format. Breaking out on the stoops always struck me as insane as well.

I've never seen nor heard of any ratline activity of any kind that ever even began to approach the level of physical contact that one might associate with an adult league flag football game. There are lots of rats (and plebes, knobs, etc) that truly are risking their bodies and commissions, but that risk is incurred while playing football, rugby, lacrosse, soccer, or wrestling, not while crawling up a muddy hill.
 
Keydet you do know that the hill isn't there anymore right? There is about a 500 foot longx 30 foot high concrete retaining wall (it looks like the great wall of china down there just above that creek) that holds two artificial turf covered practice fields and above that where the old Rifle Range used to be is a big new state of the art indoor outdoor rifle range. There is no hill to remaining even if they wanted to do that mud climb.

The breakout they are doing is every bit as challenging as earlier days. I don't know what they will do this year but I'm sure that it will be an all day event that will have a really hard and physically challenging group theme. Personally I think that it ought to include a couple of days of long road marches (10-15 miles) as I can think of no better gut check than to do one of those then get up at 0 dark 30 and do another. But whatever it is I'm sure they will come up with something that is physically demanding and has the Rats working hard as a group in order to complete it.
 
Sprog-iirc, breakout took a one year hiatus from the mud hill (with '02breaking out at New Market in '99, right?) it then returned for '03-'07 (I think) before Peay decided he would stamp it out.

I would 100% return to a breakout hill format. Breaking out on the stoops always struck me as insane as well.

I've never seen nor heard of any ratline activity of any kind that ever even began to approach the level of physical contact that one might associate with an adult league flag football game. There are lots of rats (and plebes, knobs, etc) that truly are risking their bodies and commissions, but that risk is incurred while playing football, rugby, lacrosse, soccer, or wrestling, not while crawling up a muddy hill.

I graduated in '99, so I'm not sure what went on after that. I remember it being a fairly contentious choice by our class to change it for '02 (it didn't have the support of all First Class members). Originally, they wanted to do an 80 mile march to NM, but it was significantly reduced to include maybe a 15-20 mile march plus a day of exercise/leadership problems. My understanding is that we had some high ranking cadets who were USMC reservists and wanted to model it after "The Crucible" (how USMC recruit training culminates, not the Arthur Miller play). Many in the class and rest of the Corps were opposed, so I'm not surprised it changed after my class graduated.
 
Brunon

The hill at the rifle range has indeed been replaced by a concrete wall. However, muddy hill breakouts took place for several years at McKethan Park before it was decided by Peay, over the protests of the then then-first class, that breakout hill would no longer take place.
 
(Reposted from this thread, to cover all the bases.)

Many of the things discussed on the two threads about the most recent rat riot at VMI have been beaten to death. That said, I have a few thoughts that have yet to be addressed. This will be long. :smile:

Here it is, in a nutshell: Everything about the VMI system has been designed and developed over the past 172 years to turn boys into men. The Ratline takes high school seniors and turns them into VMI Cadets. The VMI system doesn’t build character; it only reveals it. The system is not perfect, by any means. But it is good. It is the imperfections of the system that leads to nonsense like rat riots.

One of the beauties of the VMI system is what it teaches you about rules. There are so many rules that you can’t possibly follow all of them all the time for four years while maintaining your sanity. I really resented this in my first two years there, because I was deeply convinced that how closely you follow the rules is a measure of your integrity. As a Second, I began to see the beauty in it all: you learn how to evaluate a situation, consider the consequences, and make a decision about which rules have the greatest impact on mission accomplishment. Most importantly, if you do it right, you learn to take responsibility for every decision you make.

For instance, one of the rules is that you have to roll your hay and stack the racks against the wall from about 7:00am until noon (or until 11:15pm, if you’re a rat) Monday through Saturday. It’s possible as an upperclassman to earn a “haydown”, which means you don’t have to roll your hay that day. Taking an unauthorized haydown is 5 demerits. I always hated it when I had to be at formation at 7:00am, but then didn’t go to breakfast in the mess hall and didn’t have class until 9:00am. They send a member of the Guard Team around right at 7:00am to make sure everyone’s hay is up, but occasionally I’d put my hay back down after that. To me, it was worth risking 5 demerits for the sake of catching an extra 20 mins of sleep, in order to not fall asleep in class. The ultimate goal was graduation, and that nap would help me on that path. 5 demos was nothing.

Each room in barracks has a little card on the door, cleverly called a doorcard. Information is recorded on this card, such as who in the room has an authorized haydown. Information marked on the doorcard is considered to be an official statement, because Institute officials make decisions about disciplinary infractions based on what’s listed on the doorcard. So, you have a choice: take an unauthorized haydown and risk 5 demos (breaking a regular Blue Book rule), or mark the doorcard to indicate that you have an authorized haydown when you really don’t (a blatant breach of the Honor Code). Which rule are you going to mess with? In this way, you learn to evaluate the situation, consider the consequences, and make a decision about which rule—taking an unauthorized haydown, or lying—has a greater impact on mission accomplishment. I always told my rat-ties that if they were dumb enough to get caught, they deserved the penalty. :thumb:

This part of the VMI education begins pretty much as soon as the rats meet their dykes, just after Matriculation Week. Early on, they’re typically too scared of Cadre and RDC to do anything. But soon enough they realize that getting yelled at and dropped for pushups really isn’t that bad. And this is where rat year actually becomes fun. :smile: Because at some point, it’s no longer about you; it’s about your Brother Rats.

At some point, sweat parties become motivating. It’s not about the stupid upperclassmen who are about to work the everlovin’ crap out of you. It’s not about how much it’s going to suck, how sore you’ll be tomorrow, or how much you wish you were hanging out with your friends from high school at a “normal” college. It’s about looking around the courtyard, seeing that you aren’t alone, and refusing to give up, just to motivate your Brother Rats—because you want to be right there with them when the going gets tough.

The traditional response to rat riots has always been punishing the rats with a sweat party. This can look different at different times… sometimes it might be a morning sweat party, where RDC wakes you up before BRC and takes you down to Cocke Hall. We had a sweat party with our own dykes once in response to a rat riot (typically dykes don’t work their rats out until Resurrection Week, unless they’re on Cadre or RDC). Sometimes they’ll extend the length of the sweat party so it lasts longer than normal. Regardless of the unique flavor designed to make the sweat party suck more, it only becomes a badge of honor for the ratmass once they reach the point where they collectively say, “What are they going to do? Give us another sweat party?”. This is why rat riots have become “tradition”—and this is why they’ve been getting more “creative” in consequences for rat riots, stepping it up a bit as far as real penalties that are really painful.

As a direct response to this rat riot, the rats of ‘12+3 had two sweat parties, 1-2 additional RDC workouts, they’ve had to wear grey blouse from 4:00pm until Taps (sounds lame, until you remember that they’re still breaking in their collars), the entire ratmass has marched at least 10 hours of PTs, and they lost the privilege of being with their dykes other than going down every morning to roll their hays. The main penalty that got the ratmass' attention was the loss of dyke privileges. The sweat parties were tough, the PTs sucked, wearing grey blouse was uncomfortable, but all of that stuff made for awesome bragging rights. Rats really have no idea how much they need their dykes until they're forced to try to survive without them. That part probably brought them together more than anything else, because they were forced to turn to their BRs for support when they couldn't go to their dykes. But this was easily the toughest week of the Ratline thus far—harder than Hell Week, even—and they didn’t have the benefit of the support and encouragement of their dykes. My guess is that loss of dyke privileges was probably the single greatest deterrent to future rat riots.

As many here (myself included) have discussed pretty much to death, many of the rats and upperclassmen alike went overboard. However, the vast majority did not. Just as one example, the Band Co. Commander took the initiative to hold his own briefing for the Band Co. Cadre, so that he was absolutely certain that the Cadre he was responsible for knew what was appropriate and what was not appropriate. The end result was that he was very proud of how his guys interacted with the rats. Only one Band rat was injured, and that was because he tripped. He didn’t brag to me about his own involvement in deterring the Band Co. rats’ involvement in the riot, though; I had to hear that from one of my grandrats who’s in Band Co.

Many of the non-Cadre upperclassman were definitely encouraging the rats to go for it—even Thirds, who knew their own hays were at risk. My grandrat in Band Co. said that there were so many Seconds and Thirds encouraging them that they were all piling up on top of each other trying to get down the stairs. The only thing that stopped them was when the Band Co. CO screamed over all of them, "I'm a member of your Dykes Class, and I don't want you to do this! Get back up to the fourth stoop!" At that point, the Band rats realized they would be flipping the proverbial bird to their CO (and one of their Dykes), so they turned around out of respect for him. From what I gather, this kind of (positive, verbal) deterrence was a lot more widespread than any kind of physical restraint.

As another example of professionalism in action, here’s a direct quotation from a message I got from a First Class Cadre member who was stationed by a stairwell in Third Barracks:

"I was in third barracks where the cadre simply restrained the rats at the staircase. The worst that happened was the Rats began piling up on each other. Together they and the cadre staff helped the rats to their feet and told them (in a severe tone haha) to "get back to their room!" They did. There was a second wave and then a third about 30 mins after taps or so. Also in third [barracks] a rat lunged at an RDC rep and was quickly put back in his place after being spun jujutsu style into a wall. After that the matter was settled."

As for the Cadre and RDC guys who went overboard during the rat riot, yes, it was uncalled for. But I am convinced that it was the result of pure impulse (poor decisions made in the heart of the moment), not sadism. I think this is what Keydet was getting at in his posts.

Even in a place like VMI, with the inherent power structure being what it is, very few people intentionally abuse their authority. More often than not, they get carried away while thinking they’re doing the right thing.

In general, the rats I’ve spoken with feel that the whole thing—both the rat riot, and the ensuing mayhem—has been blown out of proportion. In general, the Firsts I’ve spoken with do not agree.

I didn’t have a chance to touch base with all of the women in 2012 when I was there on Saturday, but the ones I did speak with feel that the use of force toward female rats was disproportionate. My impression—which is based both on my experience, and on what I know of VMI Cadre and RDC—is that this is not inherently an issue of discrimination. Obviously I haven’t been involved in any of the investigations, but I do not believe that any of the Cadre or RDC guys intentionally singled out the female rats to be unduly rough with them. However, it stands to reason that you don't need as much force to stop a 130lb female rat as you do a 190lb male rat. In a school that's still struggling to figure out equity vs. equality—and for the record, I think this is a good, healthy struggle that VMI is still handling with grace and professionalism—I’m confident that no one mentioned this during any of the pre-riot briefings, simply because everyone is so focused on making sure women receive the same VMI experience that men do. If a higher percentage of female rats were injured when compared to the male rats, it probably has more to do with Cadre and RDC not quite recognizing the difference. Because to them, a rat is a rat.

Again, everything about the VMI system has been designed and developed over the past 172 years to turn boys into men. The Ratline takes high school seniors and turns them into VMI Cadets. The VMI system doesn’t build character; it only reveals it. The system is not perfect, by any means. But it is good.

And it is getting better all the time.


Thanks,
-jmb-
 
(Again, reposted...)

If a higher percentage of female rats were injured when compared to the male rats, it probably has more to do with Cadre and RDC not quite recognizing the difference. Because to them, a rat is a rat.

One more thing on this part...

The two female rats I know personally who were injured during the rat riot sustained their injuries from tripping or slipping on the stoop, not from Cadre, RDC, or their Brother Rats. They were not involved in any of the physical altercations, and they were helped by upperclassmen who made sure they were checked out by EMTs.

I wanted to clarify this because I think I left too much open to question in the last post.

Thanks,
-jmb-
 
Back
Top