Reality Check

It is pretty obvious to those in the know; that a military academy cadet IS IN THE MILITARY. It just happens to be that their AFSC/MOS (AKA Job title) happens to be "Student".

I don't see them as BOTH. In the military, we have pilots, navigators, missile officers, para-rescue, combat controllers, air traffic controllers, telecommunication technicians, information technology, carpenters, electricians, administration specialists, security forces specialists,......... and "STUDENTS". Student just happens to be their job at the moment. NO DIFFERENT than the 17-18 year old who gets done with 6 weeks of basic training for enlisted, and goes off to 1 year of Electronics Systems Tech Schools because they are going to be a 2E1X3 Ground Radio Communications Technician. For the year they are at tech school, their job is "STUDENT". No different for the academy cadet. They are IN THE MILITARY. Their job just happens to be "STUDENT".

Sorry; but I can't and won't agree that they are BOTH "In the military" AND "In College". When I was active duty enlisted, and in technical school, I wasn't "In the Military" and "In College". (I did receive college credit for my technical training and it led to a degree); but I "WAS IN THE MILITARY". We can say it's just words, but words MEAN SOMETHING. I have found that many of those at the academies who find themselves having a difficult time making it, do so because they don't emphasize the "Military" part enough. That don't look at the big picture enough. They don't look at the goal or end game. The military isn't sending you to the academy to get a "College Degree". They are sending you there to become a military leader. "Your military job". It just so happens you'll get a college degree from it; but that is not the goal or emphasis. Just like I was able to get an associate's degree from my tech school training. But the military didn't send me there to get a college degree. They sent me there to do my military job. The college credits and degree were an added benefit.

Sometime we have to agree to disagree. I can do that. But I can't agree that a cadet "Is in both" the military AND In College. Sorry; I'm anal about that.
 
Christcorp said:
Sometime we have to agree to disagree. I can do that. But I can't agree that a cadet "Is in both" the military AND In College. Sorry; I'm anal about that.
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It's o.k. to disagree.:) I'm anal about someone saying they are not in college or a university. IMHO, they sure in the Hell are! AND, they sure in the Hell are in the military too.

1.) That 18 year old that you referred to cannot quit the military without penalties. You have up to 2 years to quit at USAFA. If you don't like someone telling you what to do, pack up your bags and leave. That's not happening to that 18 year old you described above.
2.) The military doesn't cater to that enlisted 18 year olds parent. In fact, the military job at the War College or USUHS will never cater to the parent either. So I propose the War College is different than a SA.
3.) Expanding that point, USAFA has a parent liaisons and parents weekend. What parents think (right or wrong) is on the school's mind. Hell, they have a crew running around taking pictures (WebGuy). Not so for the enlisted or outside of the SA.
4.) In the past we covered many times that USAFA has D1 college sports. They get a college degree and the credits at USAFA transfer to other colleges.
5.) USAFA is ranked as a top college.

So what does USAFA think? See http://www.usafa.af.mil/News/Articl...ademy-earns-several-top-college-rankings.aspx Title:"Academy earns several top college rankings".

I agree with what you said: "...IS IN THE MILITARY. It just happens to be that their AFSC/MOS (AKA Job title) happens to be "Student"." ABSOLUTELY we agree! Their school happens to be a hybrid college/military school whose goal is the same as well as radically different than a traditional college AND that is their job in the military (to be a college student). Hence, USAFA is vastly different that CO College. Anybody with a brain realizes that the experience is sooooooo much different. So we agree. BUT, Debunk #1-5 above. Why does USAFA bother? :)

None the less, my son got a college degree and he was accepted to a civilian medical university. They don't take vocational degrees or "military degrees". Only college or basically interchangeable with the word university degrees. Hence, if you earn a college degree there is really only one way and that is: by going to college. Furthermore, USAFA's FSC (college code) is 001369. In short, we are debating on semantics.

Backing up some. When your DS graduate from USAFA, did he earn a college degree?:confused:
 
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As a cadet I wore a uniform. I was subject to UCMJ. I had to make my bed (in reality I slept in a sleeping bag over my sheets), I had to shave and iron shirts and shine shoes. Every morning I woke up and stood with other cadets while other cadets told us stuff. We stood really still. Sometimes I got yelled at. Sometimes I yelled at other people. Often times I was miserable. I had a CAC card (the second C and "card" are redundant). I had an M-1 rifle in my closet. Sometimes I had to march.

And yet, in those four years we always looked forward to "joining the fleet." That was the REAL Coast Guard. Were we in the Coast Guard? Sure. But we weren't exactly welcomed by the fleet, and we were often misunderstood.

"Hey LITS, how long did you serve?"

Well, that depends. Either five or nine years. I don't consider those first four years in uniform (as a cadet) really serving. What was I giving back to the tax payer? How was I doing my part? Before you say "Your part was learning.... that's how your serve" save your breath, this isn't Animal Farm, and I'm not your communist comrade.

I OWED five years, because the four years before I graduated was me... taking.... taking... taking. Yes, I was taking in uniform and I promised to "earn" what I took with five years of active duty service in the real Coast Guard (the Fleet).

Technically, yes, I was in the military, technically I was active duty, and technically I was serving. In my heart, it didn't real that way. I hadn't earned a thing. It was a miserable school

And after those four miserable years, I got a diploma FIRST before getting my commission.... and I had a classmate or two receive a diploma WITHOUT commissions.

In fact, the mission of the Coast Guard Academy start "to GRADUATE young men and women...." that's a pretty strong emphasis on the "school" aspect of the institution.
 
I don’t think anyone here misunderstands that the academies confer degrees. They are colleges of war educating officers for military purposes and have been accomplishing this mission for decades/centuries without any parent involvement whatsoever beyond procreation—because it is unnecessary.

… USAFA has a parent liaisons and parents weekend. What parents think (right or wrong) is on the school's mind. Hell, they have a crew running around taking pictures (WebGuy).
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Parents Weekend is a recent concession to what I feel is confusion on the part of the parent community who has not really internalized what their young adults have signed up for or what they are doing on their side of the gate. Our sons and daughters are not on college campuses; they are on “post,” they sleep in “barracks,” they get “leave,” they are “cadets” and “mids,” their days are regimented by a 24-hour clock (“military” time). They are salaried, they have their own wills and health insurance, and they have a place to be for the next nine years or more; they are owned by the government for a purpose. And some of them will die in pursuit of that purpose. It is easy to translate these terms to “campus,” “dorms,” “holidays,” “students” etc. but, make no mistake, they are not the same. Our young adults are being prepared for military life and careers that may include firsthand combat. If they eventually translate their military training and education to the civilian world, the civilian world benefits, but that is a by-product and not the intent of the academies.

I believe that the academies themselves are causing part of the confusion by allowing their posts to become tourable gift shops, acknowledging the USNWR ranking game, and hosting events meant really as “taxpayer” rather than “parent” outreaches. It is good marketing to allow taxpayers to peek behind the curtain now and then and, for taxpayers who happen to be parents of cadets/mids, not to thrust the combat-readiness and potential for death aspects in parents’ faces. Who wants that? Much better to sit in the football stands in your swag cheering for your team to “Go <yourbranchhere>! Beat <theirbranchhere>! ” I get that. And, to some extent, I wrap myself in a bit of the college illusion so I don’t have to think too hard about what my son may someday face. But I trust that his academy has been in this business a long time and is not under any illusion about its purpose and is, instead, preparing him well to step up to challenges that his civilian friends at their civilian colleges will never face. He has agreed to die for that privilege.

So, no, he’s not a college student in any traditional sense. He is an officer in training. And I am certain he will be a fine one.
 
VelveteenR said:
He has agreed to die for that privilege.
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No he hasn't. No who "agrees" to that. It's in no oath. It's in no contract. It's in no agreement. The only places I see that constantly brought up is 1. a parent talking about his/her kid and 2. a service member trying to make an emotional speech in front of civilians.
 
Christcorp said:
True, but with one little caveat. I'm not sure if your sons are at Westpoint or ROTC. But if they are at Westpoint; or any of the military academies; while it's true they are no "Deployable", the academies in the past have graduated cadets early because of war, the military had a strong need for junior officers.

Over the years, I've had a lot of parents tell me and believe in their hearts, that their son or daughter (At the academy) wasn't in the "Military". They saw them as "College Students". Just like spirit mom believes. Mind you, Spirit Mom's sons may be in ROTC and it's different in some regards to the academy. But my retort to all those who think this way, that their child is "Simply a College Student" and not in the military is:

"Are they SUBJECT to the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)"?

If they are....... then they ARE IN THE MILITARY.

Let's see. You are a college student at Colorado State University in Fort Collins Colorado. On the weekend, you and some friends go to a club, drink a couple of beers, buy some pot and smoke a few joints. You enjoy the weekend and go back to school on Monday. Professor asks what you did over the weekend. You tell him/her, and they say they wish they could have been with you.

or

You are a cadet at the United State Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs Colorado. You're a C2C or C1C. It's the weekend. You've got a million passes and you're over 21, so you go down town with a couple cadet friends to a club. You have the same fun time out. Go to a club, drink a couple of beers, buy some pot and smoke a few joints. You enjoy the weekend and go back to the dorms and back to class on Monday. Your professor asks what you did over the weekend. You tell him/her, and the next thing you know you're detained and pressing charges which will definitely include separation from the academy/military, and depending on the charges, they could include selling, distributing, etc. and you could go to jail.

There's a laundry list of rules under the UCMJ that a cadet must abide to that a "Traditional College Student or ANYONE NOT in the MILITARY has to". In other words....... "If you are bound by the UCMJ, and are subject to disciplinary action based on the UCMJ, then you ARE IN THE MILITARY. A parent can believe that their kid is a "College Student" all they want. They can think that their kid is "OFF TO COLLEGE". But they aren't. They ARE in the military. It just so happens that their first assignment is at the academy; and their first AFSC/MOS happens to be "STUDENT". Just like when my son graduated the air force academy and went immediately to Graduate School. His NEXT Duty Assignment was Los Angeles Air Force Base, and his AFSC was "Student" while he was attending the Parde Rand Graduate School.

Again; not knowing Spirit Mom's sons situation, I'm not speaking of her kids. But if your child is attending one of the military academies, then they are most definitely in the military. They aren't simply "College Students". The good thing is........ It's ok if parents want to think this way. It makes them less anxious and stressed worrying. But their Little Johnny or Joanie happen to "KNOW THE TRUTH". They ARE in the military. And as long as THEY know it; it's ok if mommy and daddy believe otherwise.
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I wonder what they think that oath they took on I-Day was?
 
VelveteenR said:
I don’t think anyone here misunderstands that the academies confer degrees. They are colleges of war educating officers for military purposes and have been accomplishing this mission for decades/centuries without any parent involvement whatsoever beyond procreation—because it is unnecessary.



Parents Weekend is a recent concession to what I feel is confusion on the part of the parent community who has not really internalized what their young adults have signed up for or what they are doing on their side of the gate. Our sons and daughters are not on college campuses; they are on “post,” they sleep in “barracks,” they get “leave,” they are “cadets” and “mids,” their days are regimented by a 24-hour clock (“military” time). They are salaried, they have their own wills and health insurance, and they have a place to be for the next nine years or more; they are owned by the government for a purpose. And some of them will die in pursuit of that purpose. It is easy to translate these terms to “campus,” “dorms,” “holidays,” “students” etc. but, make no mistake, they are not the same. Our young adults are being prepared for military life and careers that may include firsthand combat. If they eventually translate their military training and education to the civilian world, the civilian world benefits, but that is a by-product and not the intent of the academies.

I believe that the academies themselves are causing part of the confusion by allowing their posts to become tourable gift shops, acknowledging the USNWR ranking game, and hosting events meant really as “taxpayer” rather than “parent” outreaches. It is good marketing to allow taxpayers to peek behind the curtain now and then and, for taxpayers who happen to be parents of cadets/mids, not to thrust the combat-readiness and potential for death aspects in parents’ faces. Who wants that? Much better to sit in the football stands in your swag cheering for your team to “Go <yourbranchhere>! Beat <theirbranchhere>! ” I get that. And, to some extent, I wrap myself in a bit of the college illusion so I don’t have to think too hard about what my son may someday face. But I trust that his academy has been in this business a long time and is not under any illusion about its purpose and is, instead, preparing him well to step up to challenges that his civilian friends at their civilian colleges will never face. He has agreed to die for that privilege.

So, no, he’s not a college student in any traditional sense. He is an officer in training. And I am certain he will be a fine one.
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No person attending has "agreed to die", anymore than you or I have.
 
VelveteenR said:
So, no, he’s not a college student in any traditional sense. He is an officer in training. And I am certain he will be a fine one.
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Fine. He is a college student in a NON traditional sense. I've been saying that all along. USAFA is both a college and an officer training school. For some reason, people want to think they are mutually exclusive. The classes and experiences our son took was in fact focused on academics. It was the scholars program. They sent him to China to study (through grants). Off to the Aspen Institute 4 times. Asked him to apply for the Rhodes and Marshall scholarship (along with a dedicated class schedule and different classes. Multiple mock interviews including mentoring with generals (2 of which were Rhodes Scholars) etc etc). Yea. It was academically focused. OF COURSE a lot of military training as well. Simply put, it was a combination of world class college classes + a very heavy dose of military life (as LITS said "Military lite") and leadership training.

I don't understand how were you able to determine "parents really haven't internalized" that their sons and daughters are in the service? I suspect some haven't. Did you go to parents weekend? Does that make a person unable understanding the implications? If I call USAFA a military college, does that somehow put me in denial or that I haven't internalized the possible outcome? I very much have grasped what he signed up to do (and why he wanted to be a doctor and a parachutist).

I get the feeling that some people refuse to call a SA a college in an attempt to highlight its mission (and refusing to call a spade a spade). I've laid out my logic ^^ and I'm waiting for someone to poke a hole in my bullets. :) Because a lot of people including USAFA themselves don't mind calling it a "college".

It's official. The horse has been beaten.
 
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Oops! Now you tell me!
DS applied for and was accepted to this thing called "The Little Engineering School in the Rockies"
Now I learn it is a college[emoji15]
 
They are colleges -- colleges of war.
 
He has agreed to die because that is a potential consequence of war and training for war and is part of what he had to come to terms with in going this route. West Point lost two cadets and one recent grad this summer, all stateside. I never said anything about any oaths. He knows he can be put in harm's way. This is in addition to the regular slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that we are all subject to in our everyday civilian lives.

Believe me, I wish he had chosen another route. If academics were paramount, West Point ranked lowest on the list of places he was accepted to. He did not make this choice for the academics or the "college" experience.
 
VelveteenR said:
He has agreed to die because that is a potential consequence of war and training for war and it part of what he had to come to terms with in going this route. West Point lost two cadets and one recent grad this summer, all stateside. I never said anything about any oaths. He knows he can be put in harm's way. This is in addition to the regular slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that we are all subject to in our everyday civilian lives.
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Those deaths weren't related to war. They very easily could have happened to anyone.

If he's agreeing to die, he's in the wrong profession. The military doesn't want its people to die.
 
Agree may not be the correct word then. He knows that he is taking on additional risk with his choice and he accepts that. And I sure hope the training and education he receives is of a caliber to make that risk unlikely.

I am not in the camp that is impressed by any of the academies, so I will bow out of this conversation as graciously as I can. I do not mean to argue or throw water on what other people think, simply to present another point of view. Carry on.
 
MN-Dad-2016 said:
I'm confused. Why would you be pushing a different plan versus what your son is dreaming of?

If you think you are being bypassed by politics, then get off the bubble. One example of many: rewind to my DS's 6th grade. During hockey tryouts, it seemed obvious to me that the coaches kids were rounded up on the traveling teams (as well as their friends). In MN, hockey is a BIG deal and parents self esteem quickly gets tied into how well their kids do especially in something so visual as sports. So some parents want to coach (especially Dad's) for the wrong reasons specifically to round up their kids. Of course with more ice time you eventually become a better player. Everyone who is reading has witnessed this to some degree.

I chose the path of encouraging him to get off that bubble. I let him know life isn't fair and I refused to give him any sympathy. I explained it is going to happen over and over if you are the bubble kid (or adult). The solution is to get off that bubble and make it more obvious you deserve it more than others. If that happens, they will have no choice but to pick you. That is a approach that makes you a better person and you make the team (don't leave the decision to politics). That said, the parents who had the stud hockey kid didn't feel my pain. AND if I am being honest, the white male USAFA students and parents won't get what you are feeling either. So back in the 6th grade till 11th story.. He worked in the off season with a gazillion camps and dryland exercises and finally made the varsity team..... But not until his senior year and on the 4th line. Like USAFA where many don't bother filling out a complete application or quit after they see a medical qualification (measured in the THOUSANDS), many MN hockey players give up playing something they love and want to do because the tough gets going. Your son has perseverance and that is such an admirable trait.

I'd be the parent pushing plan A and encouraging him to find more somewhere (everyone has more; they just need to find it). :) In HS, making that varsity team in itself didn't matter nor will being a USAFA cadet make your son. But if people apply that drive and perseverance to the things that they want, more often than not the reward will happen. I wish your son the very best! He can do it and especially with your support! :)
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After seeing several young adults go through this process most recently with a few personal friends(including my oldest), you don't want to burst bubbles-but you need to be realistic and if the dream is to serve efforts need to be put into plans b, c and d and that's all I have to say about that. He certainly has the dream, desire, resume and now medically qualified-but there is very few slots available for the talented individuals who want to attend a service academy.
Believe me going through this roller coaster with our oldest and living life growing up in a military family-NOTHING is guaranteed.
That's the reality. Wish all of yours the best as well.
 
VelveteenR said:
Agree may not be the correct word then. He knows that he is taking on additional risk with his choice and he accepts that. And I sure hope the training and education he receives is of a caliber to make that risk unlikely.

I am not in the camp that is impressed by any of the academies, so I will bow out of this conversation as graciously as I can. I do not mean to argue or throw water on what other people think, simply to present another point of view. Carry on.
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What institute of higher learning impresses you? I'm not easily impressed. But I honestly don't believe our son could have gotten a better academic education. He believes he is at HMS exclusively because of his education that made him radically different (Harvard LOVES diversity even if they are white males). He did medical research, had small classes with no TA's, mentors galore, passionate instructors, he learned leadership and time management under pressure, etc etc. He is convinced he got a world class education. Our family was impressed by USAFA and the opportunities that have already taken place. I was impressed with many of the instructors too. I think General Johnson is also doing an incredible job. I cannot speak for the other SA's. But if they mimic what the cadets learn at USAFA, I'm impressed.
 
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Interestingly, on the "rodeo clown college forum" they are having the same argument. Lol.
 
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