Recruiting Shortfalls

[USMC Crayons]

I don't question your numbers, and I do appreciate your recruiting efforts. But over half of the $343k figure is dependent upon maximizing educational benefits. Some percentage of recruits are enlisting precisely because they have no intention of going to college. Also, many enlisted personnel enter service intending to take advantage of the GI Bill but don't, for any number of reasons which could include leaving the military to enter the workforce in a job that the military may or may not have prepared them for, starting a family during the first tour, etc.

If you are not going to use it for college or a trade school you can pass it to your spouse or child. The economic benefit still applies.

 

[cb7893]

I'm sorry, but this underpaid story line is hogwash. If anything, the military is doing a poor job of selling the actual monetary value of enlistment. Let's do a little math ( I do this for a living.)

E2 pay @ 2 = 2402/month
Average rent in the US = 1502 (lets be generous and say they have a roommate so $750/month
Average food expense for 1 person = 342
Tuition assistance max per year $4-4500k

By my math, that is $3869/ month or $46,428 per year.

Also, I don't know where you get that the TSP is a mediocre retirement plan. Yes, it's not a pension, but in terms of max contributions and low fees, it is at least on par if not better than almost any other 401(k) that I have seen.

Do you know many 20 year olds that have a comp package of $46k per year at Chick Fil A, or Popeyes or Wal Mart? I don't.

Let's also not forget GI Bill.

In my state, GI Bill tuition and fees + BAH + book stipend is equal to $39,180/year so a total economic value of $156,720 for 4 years (actually higher if you factor in BAH is not taxable.

So the economic value of a 4 year enlistment for someone who is motivated and maximizes the opportunity is somewhere in the neighborhood of $342,432. 4 years of service, potentially learning a valuable skill and also what equates to a full ride at the state university of your choice. I will wait to hear of any private sector opportunities that await the average 18-22 year old with a high school diploma that even comes close to this.

I'm giving this one a big HELL YES! You only forgot free medical care. That's free, no deductible.

Oh! But what about the woke stuff? I know one O-3 who says couldn't care less other than when he has to sit through a power point presentation which he is paid to watch.

 

[USMC Crayons]

I'm giving this one a big HELL YES! You only forgot free medical care. That's free, no deductible.

Oh! But what about the woke stuff? I know one O-3 who says couldn't care less other than when he has to sit through a power point presentation which he is paid to watch.

Don’t forget utilities. Depending on your locale, electric/gas/water/trash ain’t cheap.

 

[cb7893]

I don't question your numbers, and I do appreciate your recruiting efforts. But over half of the $343k figure is dependent upon maximizing educational benefits. Some percentage of recruits are enlisting precisely because they have no intention of going to college. Also, many enlisted personnel enter service intending to take advantage of the GI Bill but don't, for any number of reasons which could include leaving the military to enter the workforce in a job that the military may or may not have prepared them for, starting a family during the first tour, etc.

Fine. Strip it out and it's still better than what would be available in the private sector. Pick the right MOS and receive the equivalent of a CC degree.

My DS was a Signal officer for 5 years before changing his MOS. Private employers with good benefits are waiting at the gates for the enlisted personnel and officers when they leave.

 

[nuensis]

I'm sorry, but this underpaid story line is hogwash. If anything, the military is doing a poor job of selling the actual monetary value of enlistment. Let's do a little math ( I do this for a living.)

E2 pay @ 2 = 2402/month
Average rent in the US = 1502 (lets be generous and say they have a roommate so $750/month
Average food expense for 1 person = 342
Tuition assistance max per year $4-4500k

By my math, that is $3869/ month or $46,428 per year.

Also, I don't know where you get that the TSP is a mediocre retirement plan. Yes, it's not a pension, but in terms of max contributions and low fees, it is at least on par if not better than almost any other 401(k) that I have seen.

Do you know many 20 year olds that have a comp package of $46k per year at Chick Fil A, or Popeyes or Wal Mart? I don't.

Let's also not forget GI Bill.

In my state, GI Bill tuition and fees + BAH + book stipend is equal to $39,180/year so a total economic value of $156,720 for 4 years (actually higher if you factor in BAH is not taxable.

So the economic value of a 4 year enlistment for someone who is motivated and maximizes the opportunity is somewhere in the neighborhood of $342,432. 4 years of service, potentially learning a valuable skill and also what equates to a full ride at the state university of your choice. I will wait to hear of any private sector opportunities that await the average 18-22 year old with a high school diploma that even comes close to this.

The math is a bit too generous.

If we're considering an E-2, I would not call sleeping in ship berthing and eating ship food worth $1800 a month. They won't be getting barracks, and they will be expected to eat each meal on the ship so long as it has a functioning galley.

They will also most likely not be getting tuition assistance or NCPACE approved until a few years later down the line.

 

[WestCoastRefugee]

The math is a bit too generous.

If we're considering an E-2, I would not call sleeping in ship berthing and eating ship food worth $1800 a month. They won't be getting barracks, and they will be expected to eat each meal on the ship so long as it has a functioning galley.

They will also most likely not be getting tuition assistance or NCPACE approved until a few years later down the line.

I actually used $1092 (to adjust for the possibility of a roommate). 3 hots and a cot on a ship in 2023 is certainly worth every bit of that if not more. The math is actually probably a little on the conservative side even if I back out the tuition assistance simply because I left out utilities and also left out the value of VA loan benefits in the overall equation. What’s the value of a loan that is easiest to qualify for, has no down payment requirement and no monthly mortgage insurance? The bottom line is the only opportunity that is even within a sniff of the military for high school grads is a trade. That still falls short, and I can tell you being in a trade heavy area, most young people are not choosing that path either.

 

[nuensis]

I actually used $1092 (to adjust for the possibility of a roommate).

Possibility of a roommate? A few dozen roommates.

Either extreme is silly. It's not the worst way to spend your early 20s. It's not some kind of great deal that every American is missing out on.

Regardless, it doesn't address the real problem. At the root of the recruitment issue is the retention issue. No one needs more E-1s.

 

[WestCoastRefugee]

Possibility of a roommate? A few dozen roommates.

Either extreme is silly. It's not the worst way to spend your early 20s. It's not some kind of great deal that every American is missing out on.

You can handicap this any way you wish by adding outliers, but my initial argument still stands. There are no jobs for unskilled high school graduates that can approach the value you receive from the military, period. Can you rent a room in a shady part of town for $250? Of course. How about eating rice and top ramen and keeping your food bill under $100? Certainly plausible. Hell, live in your car or pitch a tent if you so wish, that seems to be the rage these days. But also keep in mind, whatever your housing and food expense in the civilian world is, you are paying for that with after tax dollars vs just being provided or in the case that you are married, receiving non taxable BAH. You could also be like my nephew in Chicago that has 3 roommates and his share of the rent is almost $1100. That is the price you pay in that area to limit your chances of death or robbery (although his car was jacked and not recovered).

 

[nuensis]

You can handicap this any way you wish by adding outliers, but my initial argument still stands.

I'm not sure it's an outlier for a junior sailor to live in ship berthing for the first couple of years.

I'm not going to list out every single aspect of the lifestyle. But there is plenty that is worth more than the numbers.

My point: I've seen what we ask these people to do. We don't pay them enough.

 

[cb7893]

But there is plenty that is worth more than the numbers.

You are correct. One can end up with a lousy MOS, but the numbers and quantifiable monetary and non-monetary benefits are in no way comparable.

I'm definitely with @WestCoastRefugee on this one.

 

[gonavy14]

The problem isn't just about money either. Another huge part is the lowering of standards across the entire military. I honestly don't remember the last time I took a PRT that counted. Now whenever somebody is too fat to pass a PRT, the Navy comes back and is like "oh well too many people failed, so we'll just waive this PRT since we're so desperate for people". Again, that's just one example, but things like this add up and cause a lot of people to just say it's not worth it anymore.

For another example, just look at the mess with Navy recruiters. The Navy came out and said that since the recruiting issue was so bad, they were going to force all recruiters to work 6 day weeks until the situation improved. Turns out, the whole "Beatings will continue until morale improves" strategy didn't go over so well, and they cancelled it a day after announcing it. It's laughable how dumb the idea was, but somebody actually thought it would work. It gives recruiters a good line to use to attract new recruits though. "Come join the Navy. Where you can be tired, overworked, and miserable even on shore duty due to the failures of your leadership!"

Now you have generational military families telling their kids not to join because it's not worth it. The military isn't going to fix that with some flashy TV commercials and recruiting bonuses. The military won't really stand a chance of fixing it's recruiting and retention problem until the upper leadership is replaced, starting with Biden/Austin/Milley.

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

The problem isn't just about money either. Another huge part is the lowering of standards across the entire military. I honestly don't remember the last time I took a PRT that counted. Now whenever somebody is too fat to pass a PRT, the Navy comes back and is like "oh well too many people failed, so we'll just waive this PRT since we're so desperate for people". Again, that's just one example, but things like this add up and cause a lot of people to just say it's not worth it anymore.

For another example, just look at the mess with Navy recruiters. The Navy came out and said that since the recruiting issue was so bad, they were going to force all recruiters to work 6 day weeks until the situation improved. Turns out, the whole "Beatings will continue until morale improves" strategy didn't go over so well, and they cancelled it a day after announcing it. It's laughable how dumb the idea was, but somebody actually thought it would work. It gives recruiters a good line to use to attract new recruits though. "Come join the Navy. Where you can be tired, overworked, and miserable even on shore duty due to the failures of your leadership!"

Now you have generational military families telling their kids not to join because it's not worth it. The military isn't going to fix that with some flashy TV commercials and recruiting bonuses. The military won't really stand a chance of fixing its recruiting and retention problem until the upper leadership is replaced, starting with Biden/Austin/Milley.

It’s not the entire military .The Marines are not having a recruiting problem. And I bet Marines are still doing PRTs that count.

Even 50 years ago I never knew anyone that picked the Navy because they thought the physical work outs were going to be so demanding. In fact for many just the opposite.

 

[Old Enlisted Marine]

I have said it here before and I know it may sound corny to some but it is true. The Marines have created a culture second to none. Call it a cult or good marketing but ............. You become a Marine for one reason to claim the title Marine. If you ask a Marine what he does he will tell you he is a Marine, If you ask a sailor or airman you will get their MOS. Most people going into the Marines expect physical demand so PFTs are more of a competition than a burden. Marines will always be unique as they are more of a shock force. Everyone once in a while people need to get punched in the mouth!

 

[Kentucky9]

I have said it here before and I know it may sound corny to some but it is true. The Marines have created a culture second to none. Call it a cult or good marketing but ............. You become a Marine for one reason to claim the title Marine. If you ask a Marine what he does he will tell you he is a Marine, If you ask a sailor or airman you will get their MOS. Most people going into the Marines expect physical demand so PFTs are more of a competition than a burden. Marines will always be unique as they are more of a shock force. Everyone once in a while people need to get punched in the mouth!

The son and the best friend of former “enlisted marines.” They are frustrated by the direction of the corps, and their treatment via the VA hospital. A year to get an MRI?

 

[Old Enlisted Marine]

VA is a whole separate animal and has nothing to do with USMC. As far as the direction of the Corps that is a vague statement. USMC is headed back to old Island hoping / amphibious assault doctrine as they should, no need for tanks in USMC. A Gunny told me when I made Sergeant only worry when your Marines stop complaining!

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

The son and the best friend of former “enlisted marines.” They are frustrated by the direction of the corps, and their treatment via the VA hospital. A year to get an MRI?

If your disgruntled friends are waiting for the Marines to give them a MRI or any other actual medical exam they are in for one really long wait.

And the words enlisted Marines coupled with , frustrated and unhappy , is hardly a shock for anyone that has spent quality time with the Marines.

 

[WestCoastRefugee]

I'm not sure it's an outlier for a junior sailor to live in ship berthing for the first couple of years.

I'm not going to list out every single aspect of the lifestyle. But there is plenty that is worth more than the numbers.

My point: I've seen what we ask these people to do. We don't pay them enough.

LOL, who does get paid enough? I will tell you this, I would kill to have the pay/benefits package that kids are getting today when I enlisted 30 years ago. I cleared $425 a paycheck as a Corporal >3 with a lousy GI Bill, no bonuses and no VA disability unless you were really jacked up. It's not my fault that somebody is a brick and bombed the ASVAB and is now scraping paint on a ship somewhere. The guys that had to dig a new septic drain field in my yard a couple of summers ago probably weren't being paid enough either.

 

[TBVADAD]

LOL, who does get paid enough? I will tell you this, I would kill to have the pay/benefits package that kids are getting today when I enlisted 30 years ago. I cleared $425 a paycheck as a Corporal >3 with a lousy GI Bill, no bonuses and no VA disability unless you were really jacked up. It's not my fault that somebody is a brick and bombed the ASVAB and is now scraping paint on a ship somewhere. The guys that had to dig a new septic drain field in my yard a couple of summers ago probably weren't being paid enough either.

I think I was making like $150 every 2 weeks back in 95 as a E1. Then finally COLA kicked in for a few extra bucks. It was basically two night of fun and then you're broke for 2 weeks.

Agree the Post 9/11 package is a great deal, but the "lousy one" paid for what was left of my college degree as well.

 

[WestCoastRefugee]

I think I was making like $150 every 2 weeks back in 95 as a E1. Then finally COLA kicked in for a few extra bucks. It was basically two night of fun and then you're broke for 2 weeks.

Agree the Post 9/11 package is a great deal, but the "lousy one" paid for what was left of my college degree as well.

Total value of the GI Bill I received was $18k. $500 a month for 36 months. Don't know where you are/were but for public schools in Virginia, that might get you 4 years worth of books and fees...good luck with the tuition, room and board. It was lousy.

 

[TBVADAD]

Total value of the GI Bill I received was $18k. $500 a month for 36 months. Don't know where you are/were but for public schools in Virginia, that might get you 4 years worth of books and fees...good luck with the tuition, room and board. It was lousy.

I was in Virginia as well. The approach I took and advise even people today. If you're able to get tuition reimburse from the Military. I had to get it pre-approved. Then I would pay for the course and depending on my grade I would receive repayment from Command (Non VA related). A-100% B-Something C - I forgot. I always got an A ;-)

The grass is always greener and times harder. I withdrew more than I put into it that's for sure.