With smaller recruiting goals, the Marines are able to "skim the cream" of the warriors in the recruiting pool, even if that pool is smaller than it once was. The Marines have been smart in their marketing efforts and stuck to their image of warriors recruiting future warriors to serve America.
Recruiting Shortfalls
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The truth is in the numbers. People understand the value of enlistment and are rejecting it. Even though that value is at a historical high, there are two factors that lead potential enlistees to choose other options, lack of patriotism and desire to serve; and increased subsidization of other options by the Federal and State governments as well as private institutions.
Changing those forces is a long-term effort. The only tools at hand in the short-term are money and the draft (fat chance of that). Some points to consider:
- You have made a false comparison of your best case scenario against my worst case scenario (Chick Fil A). Even so, I've seen plenty of young people behind the Chick Fil A counter that appear to be viable candidates who have rejected the military path.
- I look at the kids on the hockey team I managed. Of the ones who didn't go to college after high school, most are EMT's, Police Officers, Fire Fighters, or working in other trades, financially more rewarding than enlistment. There are two outliers - one enlisted and the other is waiting tables. For the most part this group of 20 or so able bodied young men decided that military service was not a good value compared to other options. Most of them would have made excellent military recruits.
- Military pay and benefits remind me of NFL contracts. The headline number sounds great, but the fine print reduces the value substantially.
- Free room and board looks good until you are introduced to barracks life and mess hall food. Whatever hardships young civilian workers endure today, it seems to be preferable to what the military offers.
- Tuition assistance is better than at any other time in the last fifty years and the ability to pass benefits to spouses and children is excellent. However, that only has value if no other scholarship money or low cost educational opportunities are available. Governments and private institutions have made it easier to pay for education than at any time in our history. Many from low income families receive sufficient grants that the GI Bill carries little benefit for them and the definition of low income continue to grow.
- To avoid a long discussion of tuition assistance, I'll give one example to illustrate my point. A family we know well has a son who was accepted to a very good liberal arts school in the Northeast with tuition over $60k. He graduated with no debt because the school gave him 100% financial aid with no loans. Not an academic scholarship, it was based on finances. The family is not wealthy, but is by no means what any reasonable person would consider low income. The point is that to some, the value of the GI Bill is zero. Even if this young man decided to enlist and then use the GI Bill, the money from the GI Bill would only pay for the amount the school would have given him anyway. There are sources of assistance that didn't exist 20 years ago that now compete with the GI Bill.
- In the current environment, too many parents do not want their children in the military and too few high school counselors encourage military service. Additionally, kids taught in school that their country is bad are not inclined to serve that country out of a sense of patriotism.
- Many view military service as simply another competitor in the job market and the market has spoken - the value isn't there compared to other opportunities, at least in sufficient numbers to meet recruiting goals.
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This…a million times this! When the tangible benefits fall short, there has to be an outsized emotional benefit. Sadly, this no longer exists for a generation raised on “America Sucks.”
As someone who has lived abroad — in the vaunted continent of Europe — and has traveled to some 40 countries on five continents, I can say this with great confidence (borrowing from Winston Churchill): The United States is the worst country in the world, except for all the others.
I fear the new generation won’t appreciate what it has until it no longer has it. And maybe not even then. Sad. Very sad.
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Small Team Bacsi
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It’s funny.
3 kids and lots of GKs all who attended school and never once has one of them mentioned they were being taught that the US is a bad country in school ,
They were taught about slavery and segregation etc but not that the US was an evil country.
People using , I was taught the US is an evil country , as an excuse for not serving , are the same types that would have taken 4 and 5 deferments to avoid serving during a war.
Everyone has an excuse as to why they did not serve their country in uniform even during a bloody war.
3 kids and lots of GKs all who attended school and never once has one of them mentioned they were being taught that the US is a bad country in school ,
They were taught about slavery and segregation etc but not that the US was an evil country.
People using , I was taught the US is an evil country , as an excuse for not serving , are the same types that would have taken 4 and 5 deferments to avoid serving during a war.
Everyone has an excuse as to why they did not serve their country in uniform even during a bloody war.
WestCoastRefugee
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Small Team Bacsi
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As far as starting salary’s that new grads get vs the starting salary’s new grads think they will get. This is for college grads not HS grads..
www.cnbc.com
New college graduates are overestimating their starting salaries by $30,000, report finds
Today's undergrads expect to make nearly $85,000 one year after graduation. Yet, the average starting salary for recent graduates is closer to $55,000.
Small Team Bacsi
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And if you look at average salary for a HS grad in the US, not average starting salary for a brand new HS grad, it’s around $35,000 a year.
Impulsive
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I would beg to differ, at least in the "specialty fields" (engineering, sciences, and technical fields). Although, I would agree with you and the study when it comes to "Liberal Arts" degrees (education, general liberal arts, government, languages). Our one son who is graduating with a double engineering major has three job offers "on the table" with the lowest being $83,000, so the higher starting salaries are out there, you just need the right major.As far as starting salary’s that new grads get vs the starting salary’s new grads think they will get. This is for college grads not HS grads..
New college graduates are overestimating their starting salaries by $30,000, report finds
Today's undergrads expect to make nearly $85,000 one year after graduation. Yet, the average starting salary for recent graduates is closer to $55,000.
The other point is $55,000 is still a lot more than even Commissioned Officers make (in salary) after two years, and enlisted make even less and like many others have stated the living conditions and working environment are much more harsh that civilian jobs. If you have a civilian job where you have to travel (deploy) for any length of time, you get paid obscene amounts of additional monies usually, not in the military!
Bottom line is so many of you are right, there is little to no Patriotism left! And that was always the determining factor, young people wanted to serve because they loved this country, now with all the anti-government rhetoric many young people will do anything other than commit to serve, and those that may want to, look at all the diversity and equity programs in the armed services and feel they may not get a fair shake if they are not in a minority. We live in difficult times, some school systems teach young people to dislike our government and country because of either real or perceived inequities of our past. This hurts trying to convince young people to commit to serve when there are so many other options without the long term commitment of the military.
A1Janitor
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The salutatorian in my son’s high school class graduated with a degree in aero engineer like my son. He got nearly 100k starting salary.
My son’s gross pay as an ensign is much less than his. Net pay is about the same. My son is further ahead if you look at disposable income after paying student loans, rent, etc.
Two different paths. Both will have great careers and make enough money.
My son’s gross pay as an ensign is much less than his. Net pay is about the same. My son is further ahead if you look at disposable income after paying student loans, rent, etc.
Two different paths. Both will have great careers and make enough money.
WestCoastRefugee
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I am sorry, but this is not even remotely correct. I don't know about other branches, but in the Marine Corps as long as you behave you automatically pick up O-2 @ 2 years. Base pay alone for an O-2 (2 or less) is $50,280. When you factor in single BAH and BAS and adjust for tax exemption, you are at almost $85k/year. And congrats to your kid, but you and I know that very few people are a double engineering major.
Small Team Bacsi
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I am doing this on memory and I have a bad one, but when my grad left AD in 2005 as an o-3 I believe we estimated at that time his salary plus bennies like housing etc was about $75,000 a year. The whole package.
He, despite being in the Navy
had a really great life with lots of money to spend.
The only draw back were the deployments at sea.
He, despite being in the Navy
had a really great life with lots of money to spend.The only draw back were the deployments at sea.
Poseiden63
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Lots of factors impacting recruiting and retention are spelled out in this thread. I listened to an interview with the Army's Chief Marketing Officer about a month ago, who spoke a lot about how in previous generations, almost everyone knew somebody who had served - an uncle, a father, a cousin, etc., but that nowadays most young people don't know anyone who has served. Certainly here in Michigan, almost none of my son's high school classmates know anything about any branch of the military. It is definitely not on their radar scope, and they have no idea what this NROTC thing that my son has signed up for is, or why anyone would consider it. Visibility is definitely very low here. One anecdotal data point would indicate that the military is not doing themselves any favors: he met the Area Commander for his NROTC interview at a nearby Marine Corps recruiting office. He came back and said it was one of the most depressing places he had ever been, and that if he hadn't already made up his mind to be a Naval Officer that it would definitely have been a turn-off. You'd think that it would be pretty easy to convey a sense of adventure and good benefits at a recruiting office for any of the branches.
On a separate note, I strongly support the registration for the draft, but am equally strongly opposed to a draft except in times of a national emergency. We need young men and women who are well trained and WANT to be doing what they're doing.
Agree with you here. JMO pay is competitive with civilian sector for about the first 3 - 5 years of service. At some point after that it diverges and retention problems appear, particularly in a strong economy. A couple years ago I calculated the equivalent pay of an O-1 in Southern California to be about $80k - $85k, which compared quite favorably to the pay of other recent graduates.
At the enlisted level, I agree that pay and benefits are good overall and certainly at all time highs. My point in the prior post is that it is not enough to overcome the significant obstacles to recruitment that have grown rapidly over the last 10 - 15 years, especially in an economy in which the civilian sector is desperate to find employees.
With respect to the Marines, recruiting success comes down to two factors, size and marketing. With fewer numbers to recruit, their job is not as difficult as the other services. More importantly the Marines have stuck to what works - warriors recruiting future warriors. This allows the Marines to position themselves as an elite force and thereby "skim the cream" from the recruiting pool.
A review of recruiting ads from other services, primarily Army, seems to indicate a watering down of what attracts strong, healthy young people to the military. Although not nearly as drastic, there seems to be a bit of the Bud Light and NBA effect - an organization that diverges too far from what has made it successful risks alienating its core support. Combined with decreasing commitment to service, marketing missteps only make it more difficult.
Of course a powerful recession could do wonders for recruiting.
Teachers do not overtly say the USA is a bad country. Those that want to get that point across do so by emphasizing the negative aspects of our history and paying less attention to the positive. Fortunately, I think most kids take their clues from parents.
Quotes from an elementary school teacher at a dinner party I attended:
- "My grandmother came to the USA from Germany after WWII and was proud to come, even after the abuses American soldiers perpetrated on the German people after the war."
- "I don't influence the opinions of my students in class. But I do have to correct the lies the Republicans tell so they are not misinformed."
Small Team Bacsi
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Sounds to me like a story of a grandmother that was proud to be In America, despite the fact she had lived thru an American occupation of her country , that had been bombed to ruin by the Americans (and Brits) and a teacher that corrects misinformation. (Something we do on these forums all the time)
if anyone is suggesting this is why we have a recruiting problem I’d ask if they had ever served and if not why not. I’d doubt it’s because of their HS teachers and some lecture about slavery or WW2. Or those teachers not adoring america enough
The lack of role models might have something to do with this recruiting problem.
They don’t have relatives that served, the pols we vote for never served or found ways to duck out, our teachers never served , the actors and sports heroes we like to watch never served…..etc etc etc.
When I grew up in the 50s virtually every single older male, who was not really old, was a vet of WW2. My relatives and neighbors were all vets. My teachers were. The actors I watched often were vets. Even the baseball players many were vets.
When was the last potus we had that served? Most recent potus are more famous for not serving. The kids need role models to follow. And former military role models are just not there. Not anymore.
This! I’m white and my DD is biracial. She knows better than I a bunch of the issues that our country faces. She’s had her bag searched at self checkout because she looked “suspicious” only to have the clerk immediately stop when they realized she was with me (I had run back to grab something we had forgotten), and this is just one specific example. She has experienced being told/shown that her history doesn’t matter, or doesn’t matter as much as my history does. And she would probably agree with a lot of what that teacher is saying. BUT she loves her country, is resolute in her belief in our country’s ideals, and wants to serve because of that belief. A lot of this rhetoric feels like thinly veiled right vs left politics. It’s not, at least not as *the* driving factor. For my daughter, the difference, I think, is that we have a number of veterans in our family and her mentors have served. She’s seen people who look like her who have served and she’s seen how that military service has benefited our family (VA home loan ftw!). More than anything, having visible, accessible role models who have served and can speak to and model what that service means and the benefits that come with that (both tangible and intangible) is a big thing that’s missing now
I knew the grandmother for several years before she died, and who actually shared a far different version that, although there were extreme hardships, she was grateful for the generosity of American soldiers. It was the Northeastern liberal arts college graduate granddaughter who took dramatic license with those hardships to portray soldiers in the worst possible light.
I was there to understand the context of the granddaughter's message, along with many other comments over a longer time period, and it was not about living through a difficult occupation - it was about soldiers, including WWII American soldiers, being fundamentally bad people. Abusing civilians through starvation, rape, and physical assault is simply what they do in her world view.
As far as correcting misinformation, it seems my statement was misunderstood - she admittedly only "corrects" information coming from one side, portraying that side as untrustworthy. The other side is beyond question.
There are several factors in the current recruiting problem, including perceptions that inhibit patriotism and commitment to service, often developed in school.
Impulsive
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My point with the above post is that it is mostly unfair to compare civilian and military pay and benefits. While many college graduates do indeed have trouble getting jobs that pay the equivalent of many JO's in the Service, those very same people DO NOT have the service commitment nor the deployments, crappy housing, or time away from the family. I don't know of too many jobs in the civilian sector that work regular weekends, or are away for extended periods, without overtime pay. In the military that is commonplace, and while YES, many officers get BAH and BAS (non taxable), there are those that do not (living in BOQ or leased housing), and to compare apples and apples you need to just compare take home pay and the cost of living in a specific area.
Will a JO living off base in NY, CA, or another high cost of living area make more than a base salary of a college grad, YES, unequivocally! However many of those same individuals are married (so you need to consider the joint pay) and in the services both members cannot claim BAH so the figures mentioned above are sometimes ($24,000 less), while two civilians making $40K each all of a sudden have the same purchasing power of two junior officers or junior enlisted members without the housing problems or having to work different hours.
My bottom line is, it is not really pay and benefits that effect retention or initial obligation, it is the fact that far too many of the current generation of young people do not have the same view of our Country as past generations, and are used to getting a lot of things "no strings attached" so don't want to commit to anything they can't change at their whim. They would rather get a job out of college that pays $35K-40K and take any government handouts they can qualify for, without having to do PT, or any more schooling, and endure long periods of time away from their families and friends. As for public school systems causing this lack of motivation, or Patriotism, well, maybe if we parents were more involved with our children's education, maybe this whole problem with getting young people to join would not be so pronounced. JMHO..
Will a JO living off base in NY, CA, or another high cost of living area make more than a base salary of a college grad, YES, unequivocally! However many of those same individuals are married (so you need to consider the joint pay) and in the services both members cannot claim BAH so the figures mentioned above are sometimes ($24,000 less), while two civilians making $40K each all of a sudden have the same purchasing power of two junior officers or junior enlisted members without the housing problems or having to work different hours.
My bottom line is, it is not really pay and benefits that effect retention or initial obligation, it is the fact that far too many of the current generation of young people do not have the same view of our Country as past generations, and are used to getting a lot of things "no strings attached" so don't want to commit to anything they can't change at their whim. They would rather get a job out of college that pays $35K-40K and take any government handouts they can qualify for, without having to do PT, or any more schooling, and endure long periods of time away from their families and friends. As for public school systems causing this lack of motivation, or Patriotism, well, maybe if we parents were more involved with our children's education, maybe this whole problem with getting young people to join would not be so pronounced. JMHO..
WestCoastRefugee
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Not sure where you received your info, but in the case of both spouses being military, they both receive single BAH. If there are dependents, they have to select which one will receive the dependent BAH, and which one keeps the single. Dual military spouses can be quite lucrative. As far as taking the civilian route job wise I can honestly say I would rather have stayed in the military than dealt with corporate America. It is the most soulless existence.My point with the above post is that it is mostly unfair to compare civilian and military pay and benefits. While many college graduates do indeed have trouble getting jobs that pay the equivalent of many JO's in the Service, those very same people DO NOT have the service commitment nor the deployments, crappy housing, or time away from the family. I don't know of too many jobs in the civilian sector that work regular weekends, or are away for extended periods, without overtime pay. In the military that is commonplace, and while YES, many officers get BAH and BAS (non taxable), there are those that do not (living in BOQ or leased housing), and to compare apples and apples you need to just compare take home pay and the cost of living in a specific area.
Will a JO living off base in NY, CA, or another high cost of living area make more than a base salary of a college grad, YES, unequivocally! However many of those same individuals are married (so you need to consider the joint pay) and in the services both members cannot claim BAH so the figures mentioned above are sometimes ($24,000 less), while two civilians making $40K each all of a sudden have the same purchasing power of two junior officers or junior enlisted members without the housing problems or having to work different hours.
My bottom line is, it is not really pay and benefits that effect retention or initial obligation, it is the fact that far too many of the current generation of young people do not have the same view of our Country as past generations, and are used to getting a lot of things "no strings attached" so don't want to commit to anything they can't change at their whim. They would rather get a job out of college that pays $35K-40K and take any government handouts they can qualify for, without having to do PT, or any more schooling, and endure long periods of time away from their families and friends. As for public school systems causing this lack of motivation, or Patriotism, well, maybe if we parents were more involved with our children's education, maybe this whole problem with getting young people to join would not be so pronounced. JMHO..