ROTC Applicants...Think Hard

There's another piece to the puzzle

jagabiti said:
Wow...I don't agree at all... What I was saying is that students who take a more rigorous major then other ROTC cadets have a harder road ahead. You're cant say that a cadet majoring in Aerospace and Mechanical Enginerring has the same academic stress as one majoring in English or business... They are equally passionate as the next, as motivate as the next but have more involved in their major.
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There's something else to be considered as you can't really say one major is more rigorous than another unless you put a specific individual into the equation. Which is harder: writing a 30 page term paper or learning differential equations? Memorizing the Kreb's cycle or learning Greek? Reading 5000 pages or delivering a 30 minute speech? It all depends on the individual's cognitive abilities, present work habits and prior learning opportunities.

Rigorous is relative given who is at the table and what they are required to eat.
 
bull,

yes. you misunderstood me, or I did not make it clear.

I am NOT saying that ROTC cadets study LESS. Not at all. What I was saying was, ROTC combined with academic work is no tougher than what a dedicated students put themselves through to excel in whatever field they chose. It just happens to be different. I now have one ROTC cadet and non ROTC student as sons, and looking at what they are putting themselves through, they are both working hard and in a different way, but my ROTC kid is not having it any tougher than his non ROTC brother. By the way, I did NOT say my older son and his peers are putting XXX more hours studying for course. My son's EC in his chosen field for future professions is NOT academic studies. Ditto with his friends in engineering programs. That's not course work. They are doing independent project that cannot be classified as "study".

I guess you and I have to agree to disagree on this whole issue of how ROTC students have it tougher. You say, I don't know how some ROTC cadets may have extra problems and hardship they have to deal with. You could say that about ANY group of students - some have to work two jobs to put themselves through school. Some have to overcome enormous health problems to stay the course. Some have to deal with the specter of completely dysfunctional home background they came from that haunts them on a daily basis from psychological point of view. I just don't buy this "ROTC cadets have it so much tougher" kind of ethos.

By the way, the tid bit about enlisted solider with less privilege. You said, not all of them come from less privileged background. Of course, there are always exceptions. But,we are talking about generality here. I was not saying about your brother. However, look at the statistics. You and my son are more privileged than AVERAGE enlisted soldiers, and you are in charge of their life - the Army entrusted THEIR LIFE in your hands. So, if my son had to wake up at 4:30 AM for PT and ran in rain and sleet and forego some parties, and work extra hard on his course work so that he will have the privilege of leading young men and women who had less privilege than he had, he should not expect any sympathy from me. As I said previously, he has my RESPECT, not sympathy. If that makes me a b***ch of a mother. So be it. Actually, my kids are entirely satisfied with this "unsympathetic" mother. You don't need to feel bad for me as you said in your post. I don't and neither do my kids. This "I have it tougher than others" ethos is simply not part of the family lingo among us. I am dealing with catastrophic health issues right now that makes my future entirely uncertain, but I never felt that I have it tougher than others who don't have my current problems but had their own in some other way. And, there are people who have my problems in much worse circumstances. I am still blessed in so many ways, and even with this problems, the Universe has given me, in balance, so much more than others. So, I won't insult the other people who are less privileged than I am by going into the "poor me" routine. And, this is the value I drilled into my sons' head.

By the way, you think some cadets are handling more now than what 95% of adults are handling???? Wow, I am flabbergasted. Unless you are coming from the "1%" family, ask your parents how much or little stress they have in their life. Ask average working mom and dad with middle class income in this uncertain financial environment how they feel about putting food on the table, providing shelter and security for their kids. Ask the adults who hold two jobs so that their kids have clothes on their back and a gift of two for birthdays. Ask them about their ailing, aging parents who also need care from them. Ask all the adults about dealing with life where so much is NOT under their control. Ask them about the macro economical conditions that shut down that plant in town and cut the lifeline of many people in the community who now have to worry about where the next paycheck is coming from. Ask those with serious health problems and no insurance (this is more than 5% of the adults, you know). Now tell me if you truly feel that ROTC cadets more to handle than 95 % of the adults.
 
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Obviously, I ruffled some feathers.

First of all, I apologize if I gave the impression that I am not sympathetic towards those who were let go regardless of the reason. I am especially entirely sympathetic towards those who were let go through no fault of their own, and I DO know that that happens also. I am NOT passing judgment for those who faltered a bit at the beginning but shaped up later. I am entirely sympathetic towards kids who make some mistakes and here and there. Oh, boy, as an adult I made a load of mistakes. What I was commenting on was the kind of cases where some cadets who are not clear about this path, not prepared for it, and subsequently did not chose to put time and effort. Those for whom this was not a dream - a personal aspiration, but rather dilly dallied. Or, those who had an eye on the "dream" part, but were not willing to make necessary sacrifice. For those, I don't feel particularly sympathetic.

What I object to, though, is this chorus of "ROTC students have it so much tougher than other students" Yes, they have it tougher than average students doing tailgate parties, having fun play computer games hours on end, and what not. However, this is NOT a right reference group.

The group to compare the ROTC students are those who have a passion for their chosen field and are willing to spend a lot of time to make their dream come true. If you put these two groups together, ROTC students have it tough in a different way than the other dedicated students have it tough. ROTC students do not have it tougher, I don't think. I am looking at S1, and he tells me he hardly has time to eat, with tough course work plus as a president of a by-now very active and very visible campus professional organization he founded and is leading now. S1's best friends are all doing this one way or the other in their own chosen fields. I don't think this is any easier than MS 3 and MS4 in a leadership role. The idea of a date for S1 and his girlfriend is studying together. So, he has it "tough" by sitting on the chair till 3 AM in a library doing research on subjects that have nothing to do with his course work, and his younger brother has it tough at 5 AM roughing it in the rain when his dorm mates are sound asleep, and when he has a 8 AM class that required a ton of reading the night before.

They are both privileged to be given the opportunities and resources that match their willingness and discipline to do the hard work to realize their dream.

No I don't feel sympathetic toward them. I respect them and applaud them.

I believe in noblesse oblige. Getting ROTC scholarship is a privilege. Being given the opportunity to lead other young men and women is a privilege. if they have to work hard to excel in this, that's the least they can and should do to honor those less privileged.
 
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educateme, I think you know that you are adored here on SAF. I've been in the "hot seat" before; now it's your turn! :smile:
 
patentesq,

geez, if this is being on a hot seat, you guys should do better than this!

I spent 5 years working for a company where business culture was, whoever can survive longest in a torture chamber gets the next paycheck.... Suffice to say, as a lone female executive, I was asked "so, tell us about your affairs with men" in an executive status meeting. To that, I said "I am awfully incapable of twirling multiple plates in the air. I stick to the regular programming. You seem much more capable. So, tell me: who did you sleep with last night?

well, if you ask me why I stayed that long, well, it's a long story: simply put, the professional benefits outweighed the cost to my psyche. When that equation became "balanced", I left the company.

And, NO. I don't think I had it tougher than others. Just different. While my, at times, abusive male counterparts had the prevailing corporate culture that favored them, they did not have the luxury of outside opportunities and therefore exit options I had. In balance, I think I had it easier.

So, bring it on :)
 
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Ok this has gotten a little ridicules. I made an original post that I thought mIght be of help and shed a little light on what was to come. I did not intend it to be come a battle of the Tiger Moms.

This is a forum for information, please quit with the "Bring it on", find another forum to wage battles

I would be very careful making a "generalization" that Enlisted soldiers are somewhat under privileged, it's insulting at best. If this is the value you taught your son then he will have issues as an officer.

Your son is a MS1, do not make comments to "generalize" the work load students and cadets are taking on, again it's insulting. Your experience in ROTC is having a son that has been enrolled for one semester, wait a couple years before you pass judgement on these cadets.

I have no idea what your last post had to do with this original thread, I do know it's something that adds nothing to help cadets plan for their future, and frankly a little inappropriate.

Sorry Patentesq, "adored" for me is a little to strong a word right now.

Bull,

I have to say you post summed up the best what I was thinking, thank you for being the one cadet that responded. Oh and by the way, I agree, i would not want to be in my son's shoes with the load and stress you guys have for nothing,
 
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jcleppe,

"bring it on" was meant as a jest.

I am sorry to ruffle your feather.

however, on this forum, we very frequently diverge from the original intent of the person who started the thread, and we wonder on. So don't selectively single out any particular post or poster in an attempt to sanction the discussion because you do not like the content of that post.

the beauty of the open forum is to have all opinions available. None of us paid to be part of this forum. None of us was paid to read and review any post. It takes nano second to skip the post you don't like. It takes no effort to ignore the posters you don't like. But there might be someone who benefit from differing opinions, and for that, if someone made an effort to share his/her opinion, I don't think anybody should feel the need or have the right to sanction and stifle the discussion.

If I feel that the majority opinions are such that my input and views are not needed and nobody gets anything out of reading my post, well, then perhaps it's no use to post: after all, we all have other things to do. But it's my decision, not others'.

As long as a post is made without any personal attack, is wildly off topic, and reflects the intent on the part of the poster to share his/her relevant experience and opinion, nobody should be chased away from the forum. You may not like my opinion, and you think my discussion was off topic. I did not think so. I though I was covering relevant aspect of your tread.

that said, I have said all that I need to say on this thread, and I will respectfully bow out. And, actually it's a good time to do so since I have some pressing things to take care of next few weeks.

PS. I did not seek to be "adored" on this forum: I really don't care. But if you and majority of the folks in this forum feel that the prevailing sentiment is opposite of "adored" to the degree that my input is viewed as disruptive rather than helpful, then it's a good reason to cease my participation. I will make that decision when it is appropriate.
 
Love a good debate! All I know is that the offer to switch to Arabic studies was thrown on the table by his dad and I as an option for DS to switch to and to give DS a little breathing room and up his GPA. ( DS took 2 years of Pashtu in high school). DS decided to bite the bullet and see if he could get the grades he wants In an Aerospace and Mechanical Eng. degree. Our kids will all do a great job and know what the road ahead is expecting of them. They all have chosen to do this on their own and know they are doing PT 4 days a week and lab on Fridays.

I think that this forum has been great for us as parents to understand some of what they are doing and has opened a dialog with our cadets in ROTC to talk to them about ROTC so we aren't clueless. Thanks all for the posts!
 
educateme on a side note, pm the mods and they will remove one of your monikers...I am not positive of the TOS here, but I would believe it is against TOS to have 2 monikers.

Back on topic, as edcuateme stated the beauty of a site like this is posters have the ability to see different perspectives.

99% of posters here are not AD in a command position, but as far as the parents go 99% also have held leadership positions in the corporate world. The idea that the military is different when it comes to this issue is ludicrous. Commanders all have their personal style regarding leadership and that will be a factor when the ROTC cadet becomes an AD O1. Just like the President or CEO of a company. They change mission statements just as fast as the military. They have long term strategic goals regarding personnel and products, just like the military. They are caught off guard by new competition just like the military. Only real differences are the military is life and death (nobody flame me thinking I am being flippant, I am not), and unless union (mgmt in corporate world is not) military members can't be fired as easily, and do not have a long term contract as an entering jr manager. Military has that.

They will have to accept and respect that the style of their ROTC commander may be 180 degrees different than their AD commander and vise a verse.

The same is true here. We all have different perspectives, and for many our position will come down on personal life experience. educateme has more life experience than -Bull- and their perspective is because of that issue.

Sorry -Bull- and other cadets, but I have to say 20 yrs ago when we as parents were in college, it was the exact same as you now...maybe even harder as students because where you can hang in your dorm room and google crap for classes, you have a laptop for class, and all of the technology now, we didn't have that. We had to hand write everything for our notes, we spent hours in the stacks (I am not even sure if our DS ever saw the interior of his college library and knows what stacks means :shake:), we didn't have scanners to copy someone elses notes....we went to the library dropped dimes in the copy machines to copy them. I am not saying pity us, I am saying don't pull you don't get how hard it is. Oh yes we do. Been there, done that and have the paper to prove it.

Now moving on, JMPO, but here goes.

If you want to be that cadet/mid who succeeds take all of the opinions, listen to them, and after you have to follow your own path. Throw our advice and comments in the garbage can. You are an individual that must live within certain parameters, but still what worked best for our DS and works best for -Bull- or JCleppe's will be different than what works for you.

The reality is we are all on agreement that scholarship or not, will not be an impact on your success as a cadet/mid. That the majority of these kids bust their humps harder than the kid where Mom and Dad can afford to pay for them to attend who is not in a ROTC program.

Every poster that posts the OMG dis-enrollment is posting their anecdote. It can be seen as a rarity by some and never me; it can be seen as beware by some; and it can be seen as something to fear and consume their life as a motivation. It is what that person is like internally that will determine which one of these three paths they choose. Again, not one of the options is the correct answer, because there is no correct choice here. There is only what is best for you.

If educate, or -Bull_ or Jcleppe or even me sway you in anyway to change anything drastically in your life, you need to ask yourself why? Guidance, because of being uneducated in the realm, okay, but once educated we should not be a factor. ROTC trains leaders. Leaders learn through guidance, and experience, but must eventually stand on their 2 feet and be held responsible for their decision.

I recall when Bullet pinned on O3 and a friend made a comment to him about why they have 2 bars, compared to the 1 that O1/O2 have. He told him congrats...now whatever you do the crap sticks on you. Look at them...1 bar it can slide off, 2 it gets caught in between.

Keep that in mind even as you rise in ROTC. Fall freshman cadets/mids they will see you as young, inexperienced and naive. They will give you the benny. Spring is like an O2,will give it if you proved yourself prior and this is a fluke. Soph yr, still an O2 coming up for O3, but now it is really looking deep. Jr yr is O3 and now they not only expect more, but demand it too. Hard to claim "I didn't know" when you have been in the system for 3 yrs.
 
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Passion is important, but in my opinion there is more to the equation than that. Timing and luck and factors in and out of the control of the individual will also have an influence. Some people will be promoted over others in corporations and in the military, too. The mission statement of the organization has a lot to do with how things are handled. ROTC is no exception.

At one point when my son was in his first or second year, the LT actually said to the unit that it was a new military, and the message was to promote more minorities and women than in previous years, and if you were not, it was going to be a much tougher path for promotion. Fair enough, but what did this mean? Was it a threat to those that weren't minorities or women, or was it a way to say that they wanted a more diverse group? If you weren't one of those groups, it might make you a little more cynical.

Things can change from the first year to the last in terms of passion for the participant in ROTC. Some of it absolutely will be internally motivated. However, throw in a few obstacles which may impact a student's future career path - ie lower grades, or a failure or two, personal illness/injury that affects performance, or even hearing the message that if you aren't a woman or minority, your chances to be promoted might be limited, might change your perspective.

If you know your GPA isn't going to take you on the path of being an Aviator or whatever your goal is, and now you have to settle for something outside of your initial dream, that can also impact your passion.

I am sure that most of us here who have had children in ROTC or those in ROTC themselves, will tell you that some stuff will happen over the years that is nonsensical, but it's the way it is. It's the reserve training unit of the military, so most of us would expect it to be a bureaucracy - and sometimes they have practices that don't always make sense to those outside of it.
And yes, some of this stuff may change a person's perspective. They may have the same passion as they did freshman year, which is wonderful or it could be tinted with a changed perspective that can be more mature, and less naiive.

In my opinion, it would be foolhardy to say that every 3rd or 4th year has the same perspective as they did when they were first years.

Like any other organization, by the time you are in it a few years, some of the shiny glittery parts may be faded, and even if you have the passion, you might be a bit more jaded. It happens. You might learn that changing leadership changes your role in the unit, or your grades might slip, or who knows what.

i know that when my son was a first and second year, you had never seen a more dedicated kid. He lived and breathed it and couldn't wait to be a career military officer. It didn't turn out as well for him as it has for others. His passion to be an officer was impacted by many things, in and out of his control. Some will rise to the top. Some won't. Those who want it may get it, and some that want it may not. It's life.

I don't think that those who want it bad enough will be discouraged by things said on a discussion board and will not pursue their dreams. Perhaps they will take some advice to heart and others will laugh and say, "Not me! This would never happen to me!" Either way, we aren't going to talk anyone out of something if they really want it. And those that may glean some wisdom making their ROTC experience more productive, all the better.
 
My bad, educateme, I think I interpreted wrong and jumped to a conclusion. I agree with some of what you said and my bad if it came out wrong. I don't think ROTC cadets are drastically busier than other students, especially when I compare my schedule to some friends of mine on a D1 SEC football team or friends in engineering. But the 2 credit hours I get for ROTC don't even reflect a day of PT I dedicate for ROTC.
 
Bumping this because it is a stellar reminder that ROTC is a loan that is only paid back upon commissioning. There is a lot to consider before signing those papers!
 
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