SAT

JAM, USNA doesn't look at CW. Also, you are correct about the ACTs, which are based more on academic achievement than reasoning. I think reasoning does improve with the upper level math courses which is a reason to take the SATs in mid-senior year.
FOF, In re the counterfeit or "red herring" answers, someone once told me that if one eliminated all the "obvious" answers, their scores would improve. Statistically from guessing, a minimum of 25% should get the hardest question right. However, there are a lot of questions which "no one" gets correct due to the obvious easy (wrong) answer. One of these that shows up often is: into how many pieces can a donut be divided with two knife cuts with answers being 3, 4, 5, and 6. First off, eliminate 3 because it is less than the easy obvious wrong answer of 4, and 6 is too many, which only leaves 5 as the correct answer.
 
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69er ... All I'm saying is that it pays off ... sometimes. And for virtually all, little.

My anecdote ... true as it may be ... was intended to encourage whoever.

But in this case, your last statement is true ... but only for a few is there any significant change.

Yep, there's unknowns in the stats provided by SATs. For example, WHO are the 4 outta 100 that improved their scores significantly. But the most important issue remains same ... only 4 outta 100 make those quantum leaps of 100 or more.

I believe its misleading to suggest that all this requires is a little coaching, a little strategy, chronic retaking. The evidence is clear. It does not work for nearly half. And it only makes a substantial diff for 4% of test takers.

You wrote, "It is irresponsible to discourage retaking the test."

I don't agree with your thought about "irresponsibility", but that aside, what I was attempting to illustrate is ... don't be deluded though. For virtually all, it will not make a statiscally significant difference. Or said another way, you'd best hope that you're among that special 5% that see that real jump in their scores. It would seem more irresponsible to fail to let test takers know their odds and what the stats are. Best to know in conjunction with hoping for the best.

And my anecdote was intended to encourage, despite the statistical realities ... because hope springs eternal. And in my son's case, his hope was rewarded.

Put simply, the prep has to have come prior to test time for virtually all. Doing it afterwards does not work for most, it would seem. Nor should it. Again, that's not the design of the exam.

Lastly, I concur w/ Just A Mom. The ACT is a totally different test and probably better suited to the achieving/over achieving student.
 
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Whistle, To what personal experience do you attribute your data? For myself, I have been assigned seven candidates over the past year who are now in either the current commencing NAPS or USNA class or entering one of the Foundation prep schools. Since I initially reviewed their packages, three of the seven have each increased their SAT scores over 150 points. Among the things to which they owe their success is their dedicated focus as exemplified by their willingness to increase their SAT scores. Additionally, this year's results are not atypical. For dedicated focused SA candidates, your observations are incorrect. It IS irresponsible to not recommend retakes to ensure absolute best SAT/ACT performance. I continue to find it amazing that your one example, your son, has to be, from your observations, a one in a hundred shot, and not typical, or at least worth the effort to acknowledge. Case closed.
 
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Groundhog,
I totally concur with USNA69!
My son made an 180 point increase solely by determination, study, retaking multiple SAT practice tests on the College board web site and by SAT shock (finding out that you don’t waltz into the SAT test station Saturday morning in April without prior preparation) and expect to receive a stellar SAT score. This increase was made in a month and a half time period. From what I seen from the former fore mentioned results I believe that any bright young person can do the same thing with enough want of a goal that they are willing to achieve.
And you know what my anecdote is? Show my son your thread when he comes back from AIM and that should be good for another 150 SAT points this October, since your son is in the same congressional district as mine.
 
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An admissions officer for 6 years.

But the data cited came from the current Sat website. Check it out.

You need 30 cases minimum for any statistical significance, if you recall your research class.

Good for your guys. I'm sure they worked hard but in truth you've not a genuine clue as to the root of 3 of 7 success stories. You've assumed a great deal and your tale, like mine is merely anecdotal, not a function of superior dedication, spectacular focus, etc. You insult everyone of the 96% who tried again and failed to increase their scores by 100 or more points. If they'd only been more focused, dedicated, blah, blah, blah.

What's irresponsible is your making generalizations based on a few incidents. That's irresponsible because it's delusional. Read the report but don't try to persuade us with your vast experience of 7 applicants really tells the true story. Of course, as you've already asserted, the SAT folks are all on the verge of being bald-faced liars anyway. Oh brother, where art thou coming from?

Finally, please leave my offspring outta your half-baked allegations and assumptions. You're apparently readily amazed and frankly, your acknowledgement is not needed nor desired. You're giving the Navy a p-poor image, admiral.

We agree on one thing for sure, though. Your case is closed. :thumb: Go be responsible.:rolleyes: You've illustrated the adage well of liars doing statistics.
 
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Whistle, You're partially correct on one account:
"in truth you've not a genuine clue as to the root of 3 of 7 success stories. You've assumed a great deal."
I have rephrased my above post.
 
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Over the years the Scholastic Achievement Test became the Scholastic Assessment Test and finally, now is simply the SAT, the acronym means nothing. Why? Basically, because the College Boards have had to admit that their test was, and is, susceptible to coaching. The only argument is, how much. The SAT people, of course, try to minimize it. Reputable “prep” companies who have been in business many years and have various “satisfaction” and money-back guarantees, report 100+ averages. Reliable independent studies, mostly performed in academia, tend to support the prep company claims. If one examines these studies, they will notice that many of the subjects who held the averages down were those who would never be applying to the SAs in the first place. Rephrased, reputable studies support 100+ SAT increases for 1200 average English-as-first-language candidates who are applying to the SAs. Another common thread throughout these studies is that it is test taking skills, not subject matter, which accounts for the majority of the increases. www.fairtest.org , admittedly biased, has spent a great deal of effort gathering all the data which supports the various flaws of the many testing systems, including the SATs, and makes for some informative reading. Even ETS, who administers the SATs for the College Board, now has begun to sell SAT prep material. Anyone who has a rudimentary knowledge of college admissions should realize that this has been an ongoing concern for many years and should not have to resort to personal name calling to state their case. Someday I am going to do a study on why the civility of internet forum boards decreases exponentially after the commencement of the evening cocktail hour. I definitely have anecdotal evidence.
 
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Since my comments are partially responsible for igniting the spirited dialog between USNA69 and Whistle Pig, let me briefly share my thoughts on SAT score improvement. This topic is important since I am convinced that the candidate's SAT/ACT score is the biggest currently controllable component used by the academies in assessing a candidate's academic aptitude. By this I mean that, although the other criteria are important, GPA and class rank are pretty much established by the time a candidate applies. SAT/ACT scores, in contrast, can still be dramatically improved. As an aside, if you already have a 1400+ score then improvement is a pretty moot issue. This commentary is for the non-recruited athlete, 1100-1300 score candidates whose candidate assessment score will greatly improve with higher test scores.

Here's the program I recommend.
1. In August before the start of their Junior year, start reviewing the test subject areas and taking practice PSAT tests. Buy the review books with the previous years' tests and start doing sections of the exams each day. Yes, each day do 20-40 questions. At first don't worry about the time element. Just take the tests, review the answers and identify the types of questions you tend to miss. If you can't figure out how to do certain types of questions, hire a tudor to work with you. As you get closer to test time, start timing your practice sessions.
2. Take the PSAT test in October. After the test continue to study each day but use a SAT test review book rather than PSAT. Sign up for the November and December SAT exams (you will need to sign up for the November SAT exam before taking the PSAT). Keep studying and taking the exams until you hit your targeted scores in Math and CR. Once you get the score you want in one of the areas, focus all your practice on the other area. Don't worry about the "conquered" area when you take the formal test. Save your brain power on test days for the "targeted" area. I assure you that the academies will understand why your great 700+ verbal score dropped to 500 on later tests.

Sound too intense? Maybe. But it depends on how important you feel a high SAT/ACT test score is to your success in getting an appointment. If you want to get a "letter of assurance", high test scores are vital.

Again I use the sports analogy. Suppose I told you I wanted to be one of the star players on the school's varsity football team but was only willing to spend a few hours preparing before the season began and then only an hour or two before each game. You would laugh in my face.

I contend that, in the candidate evaluation by academies, the SAT/ACT scores are more important(for the non-recruited athlete) than varsity sports participation. I suggest candidates allocate their time and resouces accordingly.

Certainly candidates with relatively low test scores have received appointments. However, if you are in a competitive district and do not qualify for one of the academies' targeted candidate categories, I highly recommend you reconsidered how you are preparing for your SAT/ACT tests.

Is this approach guaranteed to work? No. However, I had 100% success with our two sons. One applied to USMA, received a letter of assurance and is currently a yearling/yuk. The other also improved his scores but has no interest in an academy. Let me assure you that receiving a LOA eliminates a ton of stress (both candidate and parent) during your candidate's senior year.

Did either son thank me for the program and eagerly sit down each day to do practice questions. Hell no. But then gratitude wasn't my goal.
 
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Aspen, I believe everything you say is 100% true. However, I have an anecdotal incident ( I love that word. It sounds so much more professional than saying I have a sea story) which I would like to relate. Be careful when you tell someone that their score is good enough. Several years ago, I had a candidate with an outstanding package except for his 550/550 SATs. He had been calling me since he was a freshman about curriculum and other questions. His grandfather was a USNA grad and annually, ever since his grandson was 4 year sold, had taken him to Annapolis to seep him in the lore of the Yard. Heck, the kid knew more about the Academy than I did. I couldn't get him to apply to any other school, even ROTC, because, for him, it was the Academy or nothing. I suppose some members of this forum would have considered him delusional. Well, I sold him on prep school and then we started talking improvement of his SAT scores. He approached it with complete abandon. First retake was around 600/600. He called me to report the results and to tell me what his study plan was for the next retake, which was similiar to your regime, except compressed into about three weeks. When he mentioned something about sleeping with the dictionary, I told him his verbals were OK, to forget them, and to work on math. Well, later I received a frantic call that he had gotten a low 700 on math but that the change had been so drastic that the College Boards were not going to allow it. After he got everything straightened out, it was his verbal score that had the drastic change, from 600 to 200. Since I had told him not to worry about verbals, he had slept through that portion of the test in order to be rested for the important part. They did eventually allow it and two days after the score was posted at USNA, he was offered a Foundation scholarship. He is at the Academy now, doing great and loving it.
 
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Target Categories?

Aspen said:
Certainly candidates with relatively low test scores have received appointments. However, if you are in a competitive district and do not qualify for one of the academies' targeted candidate categories,....
Click to expand...

Q: What are the academies' target candidate categories? I think I know what you mean, but please explain.

Aspen, good post and good advice. I have indepentently come to the same conclusions.

-FoF
 
wow this post took off! i want to go back to what "just a mom" said about the difficulty of the math portion. the math itself is very easy, only algebra and geometry, and i am very good in math (got a 5 on my AP calc test). my problem is i just make dumb mistakes. a friend of mine who got 700+ told me that in a prep class he took they showed him a bunch of little tricks that allow you to answer some questions without actually figuring them out, just manipulating the answer choices, which would help me avoid stupid mistakes.


also i think i will look into taking the ACT. maybe i can get a surprsingly good score on it.
 
FatherofFive:

The largest targeted group is recruited athletes. There are also candidate goals set for female, Asian, African-American, Hispanic, American Indian and foreign candidates.
 
BR2011: In my (anecdotal) experience there are some kids who are very good in Math who don't score as well as they should on the SAT..... some students have a hard time leaving a question unanswered. This hurts a SAT score but not an ACT score. You are not penalized for guessing with the ACT test. My daughter answered every Math problem and she only got a 640.... I think she would have done much better if she had not "guessed" so much. So she is aiming for the high 600 or even 700 in the fall......
I have heard (anecdotally) that there are many kids who do much better on the ACT than the SAT and this may be one of the reasons. I am sure that the very wise USNA69 also has had experience with kids who do better on the ACT.
I know of one young person who is off to prep on a NA Foundation scholarship and his SAT scores did not qualify him as a candidate... it was not until the fall of his senior year that he took the ACT and that score got him his candidate number.....he will be in the class of 2011 USNA---proof that poor SAT scores are not the end of the world.
The advice my daughter has received is to take the SAT and the ACT at least 2 x each if not more..... You still have time to take the ACT in Sept and the SAT again in Oct. Both of these scores should be available for nominations and of course for admissions....
 
JAM, (1). Any of the SAT testing guides will elaborate on guessing strategies in order to make guessing a scoring enhancement rather than a detriment.
(2). The ACT is foreign to this part of the country. I can't convince people to take it. The few I have convinced, haven't done much different. The one that I think perhaps did better on math, we couldn't find a conversion for just the math portions. The only conversions we were able to find were for combined scores only. USNA continued to post SATs so I assume they, in toto, were better. The ACT measures achievement and is more attuned to actual math problems so, as Whistle stated, overachievers with solid academic backgrounds will probably do better on the ACT.
(3). As far as test dates are concerned, USNA does a rolling "acceptance" but, as far as I have seen, does not do a rolling "turn down". I have not seen thirty cases of rolling turn downs so I'm not sure if my comments are anecdotal, delusional, or outright lying (I am getting confused), but most marginal application packages stay open to the end. Therefore the January test dates are still viable for retakes. I have had several candidates "shine" on this take.
Good luck to your daughter.
 
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I’m sorry folks but I am going to have to take a leave from the forum for a while. The SAT thread has been too much of a strain on me. I can’t sleep, I’m having nightmares, and the whole thing is starting to affect my real life. The nightmares are all basically the same but the one last night was particularly harrowing so I am taking a break and going away. They have all started out the same. I’m in Philadelphia the first Saturday in December. It is bitterly cold. The four-plane F-14 formation has flown over as have the Apaches, the C-130 is overhead getting ready to drop the Golden Knights with the American flag and the game ball, both the Brigade and the Corps are in full form, and the skits have started to show on the big screens. Out of the corner of my eye I notice a figure literally lurching down our aisle, obviously headed for the lone empty seat immediately to my left. He is knocking over drinks and popcorn and spilling his concessions on people’s laps. As he gets closer, I notice that he is decked out head to toe in Class of 2011 paraphernalia, some of it crudely hand made. When he passes in front of me I also notice a strange sweet earthen odor, almost as if he has been rolling around in either rotten leaves or a dirt pile. He plops into the seat next to me and immediately spreads out, encroaching on half my seat and half of the seat of the person to his left. You know the type. Mildly irritated, I shoot him a glaring look. As he settles in, he starts to mumble. Due to the cold, he has a Class of 2011 scarf which he has wrapped over his face and I can only pick up bits and pieces of his mumbling. I make out words such as “insignificant”, “delusional”, and “anecdotal”. Since he is obviously deranged, I start paying closer attention as I will probably have to report him to security. I now hear snatches of full sentences: “I can’t believe he dragged me out to such an insignificant game” and “they would have to play 30 games a year against each other for this to mean anything.” Warning signs are starting to go off but I still don’t place them. Maybe if I can get a closer look, things will come together. I glare at him again. Obviously a man with no friends, he misinterprets my stares as friendship. He pulls down the scarf to talk to me. I immediately notice the strange groundhog-like facial features. A scream starts to build up deep within me. He thrusts out his ketchup and mustard stained paw. “Hi”, he says, “I’m Whistle Pig”. I scream. I get up and start running. This is where I’ve awakened in the past but last night, the nightmare continued. Being dressed for the bitter cold, I’m way overdressed for running. I start stripping off the encumbering heavy clothing so I can get away faster. As I pass the Navy Yard the nightmare ends. I stood facing a very bright white search light. Our local police have picked me up a half mile from my front door running down the middle of the street, stark naked, still screaming. It was a typical police team, the young hard-charging bright-eyed rookie and the seasoned fatherly veteran. They brought me home, settled in, and started listening to my story of the SAT forum. Once they quit toying with their billy sticks and hand cuffs, I decided it was safe, so I made a pot of coffee. After taking his first sip of my coffee, the senior policeman said he too was a Navy veteran. We bonded. At the end of my story, the old guy, with a tear in his eye, said he understood completely, and was himself working a double shift to pay Kaplan for his daughter’s SAT prep course. I finally came to the conclusion that they weren’t going to arrest me so we had a nice chat about Navy life. I think the young kid might enlist. As they were leaving, the senior officer put his arm around me. They had allowed me to put on a robe when I got home so I didn’t take offense. He told me that this could not happen again. He said that I should seek immediate professional help even though the odds were not good, probably only 4 in 100, that it would help me. I went to bed again and had a good nights sleep and when I awoke this morning, as I lay in bed, I decided the officer was right, I needed professional help, even at those poor odds. I couldn’t wait and let this happen 30 times before I took action. I went into the kitchen to make a cup of coffee and clean up the mess from last night. There were no empty coffee cups. Did I wash them up last night? No, that’s totally unlike me. Was the whole thing a nightmare? It couldn’t be. It was too real. Why was my underwear hanging in the magnolia tree in the front yard? What to do? How could I call the police station and find out? If only I could remember the officer’s name. The more I concentrated, the better the visual image of his name tag became. I had it. I called and asked for him. The desk sergeant said. “We don’t have anyone by that name working here". Relieved, I decided it was indeed all a dream and started to hang up only to hear the officer ask, “By the way, that sure is a strange name. What nationality is Zaphod?”
 
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Everyone in my office is starting to stare at me as I am................ROTFLMAO!
 
:popcorn1: LOL Way to lighten up a heavy thread USNA69! Very entertaining indeed. Do we foresee a spy novel in your future?
 
USNA69:

LOL.

I would congratulate you on a nicely written posting but I need to see 29 other attempts before I attribute it to anything other than random scribblings.
 
Aspen, I AM sick. I just peed my pants. Seriously, I'll get to work on the other 29 but only about 4 in 100 seem worth posting.
PS: The only reason I wrote the above posting was to get "delusional", "anecdotal", "30", and "4 in 100" out of my system. It didn't work.
 
"What nationality is Zaphod?”

He actually is an alien from some planet and he has 2 heads. The name is in the book "Hitchhiker's Guide" I figure he is a Douglas Adams fan. I feel closer to Marvin the robot myself.

As to the ACT vs SAT tell people to look at the percentage scores. ACT 31 is a 98% score and SAT 1990 is 95% score. I think it is a fair way to compare the two test. Both my kids did better on ACT.

If I remember 630 SAT is 83% vs 26 ACT 85% for math. D highest SAT math was 630 and she scored a 29 which is 96% on the ACT.
 
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