... just maybe that other academy by the Rocky mountain high can emulate.... according to DS, the USNA Commandant addresses the entire Brigade for slight shenanigans.
THIS IS SPOT ON. What is the fastest way to learn a language? Immersion. Go to a foreign country, and the feeling of helplessness due to an inability to communicate forces you to learn a new language quickly. How do you undo 18 years of learning that killing (even fighting) is wrong, to follow orders rather than ask "why" in response to a directive, and to undue all the instinctive thoughts and behaviors that come with 18 years of cultivating your personal identity, particularly one that involves acting independently as a late teen? You do it by (temporarily) stripping someone of their identity and making them feel so helpless they will "internalize" whatever values, words, and actions are required to feel normal again. That is how Basic Training works...and it does so in virtually every country in the world. To reduce Basic to "lets just talk to them like adults...use our words to tell them what we want and why" does not get this sort of cultural and identity change. The main problem is most cadets and trainers do not even understand this so instead of applying "sufficient" stress to help basic cadets with their enculturation and development, they sometimes slip into "hazing" because that is what was done to them and they think they turned out ok.The concern is that basic training is designed to accomplish several important goals to ready a person for military service which require stress and discomfort that, in this day and climate, could be considered by some as unnecessary. Combat is not pleasant and it's hard to prepare someone for the realities of service without a degree of actions that are not considered appropriate in a normal civilian environment. This could be construed by some new to the profession of arms as hazing because it's not something to which they have previously been exposed. The simple fact is that there are always some who take it too far but there are also those who are not prepared or suited for the military who will not be able to see the point and therefore will complain whenever they are not happy. Where does it end and at what point will the training of military personnel be useless in preparation for the ultimate requirement of being deployed to a combat environment where their feelings are no longer relevant? Just because an individual who is uncomfortable doesn't see the why behind an action doesn't mean there isn't one and we have to be very careful how we address training violations. Just my humble opinion of course from someone who has been there, done that and has the scars to prove it.
What happens?When I see cadets having to read and sign off on every honor board, weekly, and that violators are being out processed, then I'll think things are getting back to normal.
I tossed SEVEN academy graduate lieutenants out of RTU (well, actually my boss the OG/CC did, but I reported them; I caught them!). Why? They cheated on a class test that had ZERO bearing on their training. If you busted an academic test you sat with an IP and went over it and ultimately you corrected it to 100%. DONE.
They stole the answer sheet, copied it, and when I caught them they were in a classroom passing it around.
Care to guess what happens to 2Lt's that receive a punitive Article 15 from an OG/CC and are removed from RTU?
They were removed from RTU, and from what I was told later, were administratively separated from the Air Force. I did not learn if they had been handed bills for their education but I would imagine they were.What happens?
This thread is a few posters. Hard to make a fully accurate conclusion based upon a small sample. Additionally, what is the actual outcome being measured? IMO the best gauge of a SA’s preparation of its officers, is performance among peers once they hit post commissioning assignments.Hello:
I am applying for USAFA Class of 2029. I have been told by graduates (of around 2000) that the Service Academies are really good for a tough formation.
Based on what I have seen in this thread, it seems that much of this has disappeared. This is discouraging.
Could someone please fill me in on this change, how drastic it is, and what aspects of life at the academy it affects?
Thank You.
Current Cadet here, I'm curious from the older grads if things really are uniquely bad here now or if it's always been like this.
Not only among the doolies but among all classes, people don't really give a damn. Embarrassingly bad uniforms, disrespectfully talking to officers, blatant violations of the honor code and nothing happening, etc. And if anyone speaks up about it you're socially ostracized, being called a "narp." It results in a culture of apathy and fear against speaking up. It makes me wonder why most of these people decided to come here. Has this always been the culture here? I came here because I wanted to be held to a high standard, but the vast majority just don't care. It makes me really concerned that the people who graduate from here, who are now too afraid to correct anyone in anything, will be in charge of our nation's defense and nuclear weapons. Thoughts?
That's what USAFA has turned into: a joke.
I was part of USAFA for a total of 19 years over the course of 3 decades. What you have described is what takes place about half the time there is a change in Commandant. So, it really is a pendulum swing.I simply refuse to accept that this is the way USAFA has been in the past. Sure, it may be a pendulum swing, but I highly doubt the pendulum has ever swung this far.
Especially at USAFA, it is definitely the rules that define the organization. Good attitudes only go so far, and that's been pretty obvious over the past year."Whether you think you can, or think you can't - you're right" - Henry Ford
I'm not a USAFA or academy grad, but I do share from the perspective of a leader in a large company and occupying leadership roles in related, much larger organizations.
The culture of an organization is defined by the people, not the "rules." At each level of leadership, the people are the filter through which the rules flow downhill. Sometimes those rules make sense; sometimes they don't make sense, but there's a good reason; and sometimes they make no sense and there is no good reason. Make the best of the framework you're given. I personally will put my money on the organization with a crappy framework, but good people (and attitudes) any day.
This is a safe place to share thoughts and ideas and get great advice and perspective from the many amazing and experienced service people and academy grads, but be careful how far down the rabbit hole negativity goes. You ARE USAFA.
I believed in the pendulum swing theory last semester. I am privileged to be close to several individuals editing the CS&D, which basically defines cadet life, rules, etc. as you know. The next CS&D will allow C4Cs to walk on the Tzo at rest. I have never heard of something like this happening, but since you worked there for 19 years, perhaps you had seen this?I was part of USAFA for a total of 19 years over the course of 3 decades. What you have described is what takes place about half the time there is a change in Commandant. So, it really is a pendulum swing.
Commandants, particularly if they are grads, often want to return things to the way they were when they were cadets...since it seemed to have served them so well in the past...at least well enough to get them to 1-star. Some take you back to a time when the pendulum was left, some take you back to when the pendulum was right. If a new Commandant inherits a bunch of problems, then that could make the pendulum swing even harder or faster.
The examples of "hazing" you posted are not the only means to develop leadership skills in officer candidates, and they were likely called out because of an over-reliance on them by training staff when there seems to be minimal development taking place at the cost of precious time that four degrees (and training staff) could be using to study, memorize knowledge, or hit the gym.
As a Squadron Training Officer, you should be listening to the direction of your chain of command, trying to discern their intent, and then exercising some creativity and the leadership skills YOU learned (regardless of how you learned them) to turn what they want into reality. Rather than moving rooms, making beds, and dropping four degrees for pushups, think of a larger problem your squad, group or wing is having, and focus element leaders and flight commanders on leading the four degrees to work as a team, to plan and execute a solution. You might all learn more about leadership and improve USAFA at the same time.
USAFA is your one big chance to develop penalty free. Use this time. Once you graduate, your JOB as an officer will be to listen to your chain, discern their intent, and lead a team to accomplish the mission or solve a problem. Help in accomplishming your mission will come from other CGOs in your squadron. Some of them may be cadets who graduated a year or two after you...maybe even the four degrees you are training right now...so try to avoid an us vs them view of four degrees.
Some classes have been recognized early in the Spring, some have been silenced (ignored and unsupervised as a form of punishment, which in theory would allow them to do as they please), and some have been given "at rest" for a week or more as a reward. But the broader point is "hitting the strips" is a singular military training activity--and I use this term loosely given its dubious officer development value--it is one tactic used to achieve the broader goal of officer development. ROTC has nothing like it. Does it produce poorer officers? No, it achieves the same ends in a different way. Your Comm is just asking you do things in a different way, regardless of when four degrees will be at rest next year.I believed in the pendulum swing theory last semester. I am privileged to be close to several individuals editing the CS&D, which basically defines cadet life, rules, etc. as you know. The next CS&D will allow C4Cs to walk on the Tzo at rest. I have never heard of something like this happening, but since you worked there for 19 years, perhaps you had seen this?
If I didn’t already know my DS username on this site I’d think you were him lol. He is a 25er and has pretty much communicated to me the same sentiments. Part of training staff, very frustrated with the recent “hazing” protocol. He even says the C4Cs are feeling let down down the loosened standards.Especially at USAFA, it is definitely the rules that define the organization. Good attitudes only go so far, and that's been pretty obvious over the past year.
Part of my job description is to prepare C4Cs for their culminating training event, Recognition. And yet, PP has taken away all the tools which work to prepare them for such an event. My staff and I, indeed the whole squad, has tried to make the best of the framework we've been given, but it has not been working well at all. Standards are completely lax, to the point where the standards are being written out of doctrine altogether. For example, C4Cs are now allowed to be at rest in their squadrons after 1745. This is completely unheard of.
You might say "well you should just enforce the standard." How exactly would you like me to do that? The boundaries on physical training are so tight that nobody struggles with it if they are corrected, so it doesn't work as a method of enforcement. Yelling at them used to work, but C4Cs have figured out that it's pretty much the only thing we can do now, so it doesn't lead to lasting change. Imploring them to do the right thing works maybe 10% of the time, but if that was what we should do, then there would be no need for Training staff in the first place. Restricting them to base would for sure be extremely effective, but 9 out of 10 AOCs overturn restrictions the same day Training staff assigns them. Paperwork is the most popular way to fix stuff nowadays, but it generally doesn't work because PP will refuse to sign 174s, Form 10s, etc. that punish C4Cs in any negative way.
Me too!If I didn’t already know my DS username on this site I’d think you were him lol. He is a 25er and has pretty much communicated to me the same sentiments. Part of training staff, very frustrated with the recent “hazing” protocol. He even says the C4Cs are feeling let down down the loosened standards.