Sub Drafting

[TheSavage44]

I wasn't sub drafted, but my current shore duty was the result of 'needs of the navy' (my 20th choice out of 43 even though I was near the top for performance in my squadron). Additionally, I had several friends who were sub drafted when I was a mid. Some had to suck it up and accept the sub draft, others reached out to people from their desired service selections for advice, and I even heard of purposely tanking the exam (not that I know how those outcomes were nor do I recommend it). Regardless of the outcome, I'd go into it with a positive mindset. Also, I have a lot of reservists that come to my current command, a majority of which are submariners, and they've all said that sub life can be pretty grueling. Boat life isn't bad, but it's usually the 'selfish, CYA mentality from the boat's leadership' that deters them from wanting to continue to serve in the sub community from the active standpoint

 

[ders_dad]

Are you less likely to get sub drafted if you are not pursuing a STEM major at USNA?

 

[Old Navy BGO]

I wasn't sub drafted, but my current shore duty was the result of 'needs of the navy' (my 20th choice out of 43 even though I was near the top for performance in my squadron)

And of course, the Detailer explained how it was good for your career progression !

Boat life isn't bad, but it's usually the 'selfish, CYA mentality from the boat's leadership' that deters them from wanting to continue to serve in the sub community from the active standpoint

A sub draft, or draft into any community is unfortunate. Sure, the needs of the Navy is paramount, and I trust that the drafted Ensign will do his/her duty. That said, the need for a draft should be viewed as a failure by the leadership of the drafting community. Why aren't Midshipmen selecting subs? The Admissions process, and Academic majors are weighted to favor those with STEM inclination, and we should be able to find enough Midshipment that WANT to be nukes. But what is the sub community doing to attract these Midshipmen ? When I was a Midshipman, we had professional briefs (often classified) designed to show us all of the cool things they were doing, and they actually assigned a Battalion Officer who's self professed mission was to show the Midshipman that "Nukes weren't geeks !" He actually was a great Batt(o), very personable and effective with the Midshipmen, (He went on to make VADM), and there was never any discussion about a Nuke draft back then.

 

[pilot2b]

Are you less likely to get sub drafted if you are not pursuing a STEM major at USNA?

Yes is the short answer. If you don't want subs, you should probably avoid doing a sub cruise as well. Mids often seek them out, at least in part, because they typically get treated very well on a sub cruise, and often have a shorter block that summer designated for the sub cruise, which results in more leave time. Doing the sub cruise puts you on the radar (sonar?) for the sub guys at USNA though, just be aware.

Lastly, as a matter of educated guess and not by any means based on hard evidence, it seems to me and a number of others I've talked to that there's a sweet spot for sub drafts. If you're at the tippy top of the class, you probably will do fine getting your first choice. This is probably in some sense to reward that mid for doing well, and perhaps more so because the community that is ranked number one by that mid wants them as well and protects them from a draft.

On the other hand, nukes have to be bright, so they rarely draft from the bottom of the class. Somewhere, maybe around the top third of the class or so, there seems to be a sweet spot that gets harvested heavily by the sub draft. Again, this isn't based on any personal knowledge I have, but where there's smoke...

 

[Impulsive]

Speaking with 2 former AD Navy officers, they said as others here have said....if you make it clear that nuke is not your passion or desire, but if "ordered" to go will do your best, but it is not your passion or desire, they likely will look for other "fish" to catch! They both said that the "Sub" community does not want to have unhappy people stuck inside a boat with others as discontent can cause lots of problems. They WILL look for that NROTC/USNA Mid that does NOT indicate they will only go if ordered, but will go if accepted.

The thing to remember here, I think, is that Nuclear Power School is a long process (or so I have heard), and if you don't agree to extend your commitment, you will probably get one or two cruises in before your 5yr commitment is over and you leave. That is NOT what they want, they already lose far too many to outside jobs that pay three times what the military pays. They are looking for people who will commit and stay in the community. At least that would make sense to me.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

With all this discussion of the Sub draft, everyone (especially candidates) should understand that USNA really does try to get its grads into their first or second choice.. I attended a BGO program last year where the Supe or 'Dant explained that all but a handful did in fact get their first choice or second choice. Sure, nuke drafts happen from time to time, but its usually more of a pressure marketing (i.e. Sub officers "recruiting" those with the right aptitude) than trying to force a round peg into a square hole.

This reminds me of my favorite "recruiting" exchange as a Midshipman. It was Protramid (then 2nd class summer, where we do a round robin visit to Pensacola, New London, and Quanitico, and a YP cruise down to Norfolk in order to see each of the major warfare communities), and I was sitting in the wardroom of a CGN (nuke cruiser) after a tour, and the USNA officer we were with (a surface nuke and Company Officer in one of our adjacent companies, actually a pretty good guy (for a nuke), asked me what it would take to get me to go surface nuke; without a lot of thought I blurted out "the thought of having to go submarines instead !). No one ever asked me about nuclear power again ! (Of course, I was a Poli Sci major, and fairly high class rank , so really not the target demographic).

 

[BDHuff09]

I'll add another perspective on the sub draft. The following explanation was given to me by an officer when I was a mid. I can't say with 100% certainty that this is exactly the way things happen behind closed doors, so take it with a grain of salt. The administration does limit what officers of other services are allowed to say about the submarine community and heavily discourages commenting about "the sub draft" so it's unlikely anybody will get the full picture.

The way service assignment was explained to me is as follows: In August, all 1/C mids put in their service selections. If I remember correctly, the module on MIDS will limit you to only selecting services that you meet the bare minimum qualifications. for (for example, no NSW cruise = no option to enter NSW as one of my preferences). After that, each community gets the list of all the mids who put their community 1st. The communities then rank those midshipman in order preference from the communities point of view. Obviously QPR plays a big role in this, but so do ECAs and recommendations and each community emphasizes slightly different things. For example, Navy Air might rank a 1/C who has a 3.2 but was a member of the flying club, soloed in PFP, and 9/9/9 ASTB over a 1/C with a 3.8 but no PFP, aviation ECAs, and minimum ASTB. Once the mids are ranked, all the communities meet and determine whether they have an excess or shortfall of interested midshipmen. Typically submarines will have a shortfall, but not always. My year it was USMC Air (they elected not to draft though), and occasionally NFO and Nuke SWO will be under target as well. So the submarine community manager might only have 102 qualified mids that put subs #1, but he needs 130, so he has a 28 person shortfall. He will then go to the overmanned communities, and request them to release a certain number of midshipman proportional to the size of that community. So he might say "I need 12 from Navy Air, 10 from Marines, 6 SWO, etc." The individual community managers then look at their list of midshipman and decide who to send to the SARB. The baseline QPR limits for subs still apply, so they often can't send the people at the very bottom of their lists. They also don't want to send their top performers, as they are greedy and want the best people for their community. So, often times they will select mids with decently high QPRs who either a) performed average or worse on whatever nonacademic metric the community uses to evaluate candidates (i.e. straight 6s on the ASTB, only getting "recommended" at Leatherneck) or b) did not show any interest in the community prior to service selection (put swo first but didn't do a swo cruise or any ECAs) to send to the SARB. What this means is that sometimes it's less that the submarine community wants you specifically than it is that the Marines or Aviators or whatever decided you were the most expendable of their candidates. So what this means is that one good way to avoid the SARB is to interact with your community of interest early, joining whatever ECAS you can and endeavoring to build professional relationships with a lot of the officers in that community. Additionally, put a lot of effort into preparing yourself for those nonacademic evaluations (i.e. training to max the PFT, taking ASTB prep class, etc.) Make it so that the USMC or Navy Air or NSW doesn't want to give you up when the SARB comes calling.

Again, I should stress that I have no way to prove that this is the way thinks work, it was passed to me by word of mouth. I do know that it fits into what I witnessed as far as who got SARBed and who didn't. I don't like putting out bad gouge, so anybody in the know has a problem with whatever I said let me know and I'll correct myself.

 

[Memphis9489]

I wasn't sub drafted, but my current shore duty was the result of 'needs of the navy' (my 20th choice out of 43 even though I was near the top for performance in my squadron). Additionally, I had several friends who were sub drafted when I was a mid. Some had to suck it up and accept the sub draft, others reached out to people from their desired service selections for advice, and I even heard of purposely tanking the exam (not that I know how those outcomes were nor do I recommend it). Regardless of the outcome, I'd go into it with a positive mindset. Also, I have a lot of reservists that come to my current command, a majority of which are submariners, and they've all said that sub life can be pretty grueling. Boat life isn't bad, but it's usually the 'selfish, CYA mentality from the boat's leadership' that deters them from wanting to continue to serve in the sub community from the active standpoint

Whenever one is forced to list a certain number of selections (I believe USNA midshipmen are required to make a minimum of six), it's difficult not to include submarines somewhere on that list. After all, there are only a limited number of choices with all kinds of restrictions. Some have to be listed 1st to be considered. Some require the completion of certain screening programs. https://www.usna.edu/AdminSupport/Inst/1000-1999/USNAINST 1301.5J Midshipmen Service Assignment.pdf

As I've stated before, the submarine community is very proud of being an all-volunteer force. Do you really think they want people working around a nuclear reactor - with the responsibility of monitoring and operating it - who don't want to be there?

A midshipman can stomp and rage and say, "I hate submarines! I don't want to work on one. I'll get out of the Navy as soon as I can if I'm stuck in a metal tube. I'll hate it!" He will probably avoid submarines by making a spectacle of himself, but then he's likely to get a choice even lower than submarines - just for being so disrespectful. Oh yes, they can sometimes be vindictive to disrespectful midshipmen. This is why I say not to go that route. Be firm but respectful.

So, when submarines is your 3rd choice and you are assigned submarines - you have to remember that you did have it as one of your choices. So, it's hard to make the argument that you were forced into something you didn't choose. You simply got your third choice.

Having said that, the submarine community is still loath to do something as drastic as assigning a midshipman to his third choice when he is otherwise qualified for his top two choices.

Let's consider a hypothetical midshipman. Let's say this midshipman scored relatively well on the ASTB (Aviation Selection Test Battery) and attended Leatherneck (required for any Marine Corps selection) and also did well. This midshipman is a Mechanical Engineering major with a 3.2 GPA. He has no conduct or aptitude issues. By most standards, he's an above average midshipman. You can see how the submarine community might like him. Yet, they are six short on their quota. They need 139 submarine assignments but, currently, they only have 133. They are six short. They are interviewing (forcing) twenty midshipmen to interview who do not have submarines as their 1st choice.

Here are is this hypothetical midshipman's preferences:
1. Navy pilot
2. Marine pilot
3. Submarines
4. Nuke SWO
5. SWO
6. Navy NFO

Clearly, he wants to be a pilot. His preference card indicates that he may have some interest in the nuclear Navy as nuke options are #3 and #4 on his list.

He goes through the interview process and makes all the classic interviewing mistakes that I mentioned before. He speaks ambivalently about flying or being in a submarine. The interviewing committee will lump his two pilot choices together as if they were "one" choice and discuss submarines in the context of it being his "second" choice.

He gets assigned to submarines.

He is somewhat stunned. He calls his family and tells them that he got submarines. They are surprised because all he's ever talked about is flying. He is also a bit embarrassed because, deep down, he realizes that he didn't make it as clear as he should have during that sub interview. So, he characterizes it like this, "They forced me!" Now he's bitter about it. His parents take to social media (probably some USNA parents network) and rail about how their midshipman got forced into submarines. He is not very straightforward with those who ask, "What happened?" Deep down, he knows he screwed up during the sub interview but he won't admit it. It's easier to play victim than to play the fool.

Of the twenty they interviewed, he was one of the "slowest running antelopes".

* * *

Sure, there are always stories about those who got "stuck" with submarines and ended up loving it. That's mostly rationalization, I would argue. Who dreams about zipping around the clouds at super sonic speeds in an F/A-18 Super Hornet and is perfectly satisfied with lumbering around beneath the ocean surface in a metal tube?