Takeaways from CVW

AF2027

AF2027

USAFA ‘27
Joined
Dec 7, 2020
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45
Having recently arrived home after spending the beginning of the weekend in Annapolis for CVW I wanted to share my experiences with those who haven't had the experience themselves. For sake of organization, I'll break it down into the components of athletics, academics, and general daily life as a plebe.

Athletics-
Having talked to many plebes and upperclassmen about their involvement in varsity sports it was very clear to me that any varsity sport is hardly compatible with the academics at USNA. Many of the people I met were initially recruited athletes, however upon the start of the academic year they chose to drop out of their sport due to being unsat in at least one of their classes. The ability to manage a varsity sport and academics is theoretically possible, but those people are not the ones emerging at the top of the class. It seemed that the general theme among Mids was to skip a club sport and do an intramural that took the least time as possible in order to still have time for academics.

Academics-
First off, I only had the opportunity to attend 3 plebe classes - Calc I, Intro Cyber, and Naval History. Of the three, only one was taught by an officer (Calc), and the other two by civilians. The pace that classes moved (especially Calc), was much faster than you would likely have experienced in a high school class, even if you took AP courses. Most Mids either used the supplied tutoring services or should have and were beginning to fall behind. The intro cyber course was horribly boring, and it wasn't just drags that were starting to nod off. Because of the limited amount of sleep in conjunction with the heavy courseload, succeeding in academics has to be your #1 priority for it to happen.

General Plebe Life-
From what I heard, your experience as a plebe will largely depend on your company (Free 19!). Some companies have morning workouts 6x a week, others as little as 3x. If you don't get to bed early, your ability to focus on your classes the next day will suffer. Being a plebe is very restrictive, from having to walk in the middle of the hallway to doing the chow call, but I found it not as restricting as I might have thought. Though the general thought about these restrictions was that "this sucks" and "this is stupid," yet even then it's viewed as a right of passage by the plebes until they become upperclassmen. The bond among Mids was massive, so much so that my Mid described the company as being similar to a fraternity. Mids worked together to study for classes and proknow, and it was probably my favorite part of the experience.

The Naval Academy had been #1 on my list before visiting, but the visit really allowed me to envision myself there. If you are offered a CVW in the future - definitely take it. It wasn't all sunshine and rainbows, but at least I could get an untainted and unbiased view of what I hope I will be getting myself into.
 
Sounds familiar. The feedback I received was that the plebes are unhappy and stressed out. A few pleaded with drags to change their mind now while they still aren’t required to square corners. Sounds to me like they’re in the thick of it and feeling the pressures they’re intended to feel at this point. The physical training, academic workload, pro-know and various duties on top while sleep deprived has them weary, and most haven’t been home since June.

DS also expressed concern about the viability of varsity sports after hearing stories from plebes about the practice, game and travel schedules on top of academics. Her feedback was that summer seminar was a fun camp while CVW was a far more realistic look at life as a plebe. USNA remains her first choice but she has a far greater appreciation for what the plebes are going through. Keeping them all, and the parents here top of mind. You got this💗
 
The place is designed to suck.

Handling all the pressure, exhaustion, competing priorities, frustration, memorization, completing tasks in chaotic environments, complying with apparently inane rules, standing watch, did I already say exhaustion, restricted lifestyle, etc., lay the foundation for the self-confidence and discipline to go in harm’s way, dealing with screaming alarms in cockpits, facing life and death situations, maintaining situational awareness in chaotic situations, being able to dig deep and function through fatigue and pain, working as a team to solve problems, learning to communicate and rely on muscle memory learned through hours of training.

Any mids telling a candidate to run the other way - I doubt they have put their papers in to resign. If they are staying, they have embraced the suck, are dealing with the not-fun parts by venting, are finding ways to have fun, and years later will say, “USNA - bad place to be, great place to be from.”

Sample size is key. Unless you speak to 4200 midshipmen, you don’t see all the permutations of mood and personal situation. Everyone experiences it differently.

We have 4 sponsor family youngsters. Three are varsity athletes. Two are on Superintendent’s List. One is on Commandant’s List. They work hard and are very organized. Each of the three has said their sport is their best mental break and their refuge with teammates, especially upperclass who support the more junior team members with advice and success tactics. They know they could walk away from the team and have more time, but they choose not to. They are thriving. Some can’t handle sticking with their sport, and that’s okay.

Finally, they have a great deal of fun there at times. 4k+ bright minds all cooped up in one place? Oh yes.

 
On a CVW: While you get a look at plebe life, you only get a look at a ‘few’ plebes lives. I’m completely 💯 pct in agreement with @A1Janitor. And OP themselves even showed the variation in plebe experiences via company morning workouts: 3 vs 6.

Like anything, your experience is what you make of it. Op’s were their own. Others will have different perceptions of their experience. Plus, and unhappy plebe will present to the drag a different perception than one who is having a positive experience. Or different experience.

Advice: when you attend a CVW…talk to lots of people. Upperclass included. Get info from different people. And be open minded.
 
Capt MJ brings the needed balance, as usual. I didn’t intend to infer that this was the the position of 4,200 students, I apologize if it came off that way. I believe some of the plebes are feeling the pressure they are intended to feel at this point and from a 19 year old to an 18 year old walking from class to class they vented in the moment. We’ve all been there. DS commented that the upperclassmen she interacted with were well adjusted and enjoyed more freedom and balance.

It was the varsity athletics that seemed a challenge, but Capt MJ’s input on athletics being a mental break and the organized students being successful is great insight.
 
Plebes are absolutely in the thick of it. This is the part of the Plebe experience that sucks. They now know this is harder than Plebe Summer. Classes are moving at a speed they never experienced before. They just had their first exams and all the newness is wearing off. They aren’t close enough yet to Thanksgiving to see a break is coming. They are tired. They are stressed. It’s what builds grit. That grit is what has defined many of us as officers and in our civilian lives. The ability to maintain that pace, handle stress, plan and deal with loads of information… it is what has helped define as an adult in and out of uniform.

Can you be a varsity athlete and great student? Yes. It happens every single day. Sure some of those Plebes walked away from their sport for academics, but many didn’t. What many Plebes aren’t saying out load is they got to their team and realized that they were going to ride the pine. It was realizing it’s a ton of work to not make a travel squad or sit on the bench. Many made a self evaluation of the love of their sport, playing time, how much time it takes, and made a call. I always say there as many, if not more, former athletes, than active athletes at USNA. Did my grades suffer as an athlete, yes. Did I learn a ton through my sport about myself and leadership, yes. Grades are important. Very. But, you are there for four years to learn, grow, develop as a future officer. It’s about more than grades too.
 
IMO, It’s also fair to say, that many of these realizations are similar at *regular college*. Freshman year is a beast no matter where you attend. Up until now, one has lived in their (usually) parents house. They haven’t had to make decisions on their own. Freshman year, no matter where, but even more so at a SA, is a year of change and adjustment. Some of what a plebe experiences is just that: adulting. On their own.
 
StarSpangled2023 said:
It was the varsity athletics that seemed a challenge, but Capt MJ’s input on athletics being a mental break and the organized students being successful is great insight.
Click to expand...
Several grads who were varsity athletes including me post here and I can also bring in the experience of my son and his roommates (also varsity athletes). While many do drop the sport for a variety of reasons over the four years, there are still many who do it for multiple seasons and look back on it well. If I didn't think it was worthwhile, I wouldn't have encouraged my son to join the same team that I'd been on where a few of his teammates were the children of MY teammates.

Edited to add, I was just above middle of my class and son just missed the top hundred of his. . . after varsity athletics through first class year.
 
.
Growing up, I was taught that Idle hands are the devil’s workshop, and idle lips are his mouthpiece … and a worthless man will devise mischief, and from his lips there is a scorching fire.

There is a reason why these kids are busy and tired all the time …. Keep them on track
.
 
OP thank you for sharing. I will say my DS plebe year roomie plays a varsity sport and is a stellar MIDN with a difficult major and is on the Superintendent’s list every semester. Also, the view that most athletes aren’t top of the class is inaccurate in my opinion. Many varsity athletes are academics as well and do very well in terms of GPA.

Some MIDN choose to spend more time doing fun things, dating, playing video games, and when legal, partying. Those things will make it more challenging to balance all of their obligations.

Just a couple years ago a football star selected medical. You don’t do that without being the best academically.

His current roomie is a varsity athlete with a somewhat less challenging major (don’t blast me) and also has a great GPA.

Time management and self discipline are key. In all things. But especially at USNA as a plebe.

Those that choose to drop their sport do so for a myriad of reasons. I have mentored plebe parents through their DS/DD decision to drop a sport and many times the plebe makes the choice before improving their time management or seeking EI.

4200 different experiences happening.

Also, as others have said it was designed to suck. A lot. Fun will be had but the work required to succeed will be difficult and sometimes leave one with a less than enthusiastic attitude.
 
The "worst" times at USNA for plebes are Ac year right after first set of grades and January / early February right after holiday break.

As a BGO, I tell candidates: "Look to the right of you on I-Day. One of you will be in the bottom half of the class." People who have always excelled at everything, folks who didn't really have to study to get As in h.s. . . . are now finding themselves overwhelmed. In our day, MOST plebes were getting Cs, Ds and Fs -- most for the first time in their lives. There was too much to do and not nearly enough time to do it.

The PS stuff, which we thought was over, had just taken on a new form. We still had 3x daily chow calls, 3x daily "come arounds," company boards and windows to do monthly, sheet posters to make (no longer a thing), mandatory fun (pep rallies), 24-hour watch every 2 weeks, watch inspection, daily room inspection, weekly formal uniform inspection, P-rade practice, P-rades, march-on practice . . . oh, and 19 to 20 hours of academics each semester (vs. the 16 to 17 today). And no Academic Center.

I'm not saying things were harder in the old days . . . IMO, things remain difficult but the tasks / obligations change over time as they should and need to.

But it's always been tough. That's why you do it.

As for academics and sports, when I was there, a young woman was an Academic All-American in 3 sports. She majored in Systems Engineering. She was a 5-striper. It can be done.

Finally, this is why they offer CVW. If you can't see yourself doing what you observe, then USNA isn't the right place for you. And that's perfectly ok.
 
Maliwon said:
hough the general thought about these restrictions was that "this sucks" and "this is stupid," yet even then it's viewed as a right of passage by the plebes until they become upperclassmen. The bond among Mids was massive, so much so that my Mid described the company as being similar to a fraternity.
Click to expand...
> Yes , being a Plebe sucks, and there are times that the daily grind of the next 3 years can suck, but there is the sense of fraternity and accomplishment that only grows over time.
Capt MJ said:
Finally, they have a great deal of fun there at times. 4k+ bright minds all cooped up in one place? Oh yes.
Click to expand...
> I have often said here that the Midshipman definition of fun is different than State U -- sometimes it may be twisted and seem strange, but its just 18-24 ish year olds blowing off steam. Like the snowball fight -- its short , intense and will lead to lifetime memories.

On the issue of Varsity Athletics -- of course it can be done ! Hoops and OldRetSWO are examples here, but Navy routinely fields some very successful athletic teams, and athletics is a integral part of the experience. There are certainly some superheros like USNA1985 mentions, but the vast majority are those that learn to manage to find the balance between academics, athletics and other Brigade duties. It is my experience that those who are able to accomplish this often turn into pretty successful Naval Officers (and sucessful in life in general). I have also seen those that come to USNA as recruited athletes thinking that their recruited status makes them special, they are above all the routine stuff and struggle. USNA is not for everyone -- if your goal is to obtain a top notch education, develop leadership skills and participate in intercollegiate athletics at a competitive level, and want to serve as a Naval /Marine Corps Officer, its a good choice. If the primary objective is to be an college athlete...it may not be.
 
Like many have mentioned, plebe year is a character strengthening exercise; and a continual test. The Navy, and America, needs strong people who persevere for the good of the mission, their team, and the country. It’s supposed to be tough and it’s healthy they understand this helps build them up for their time in the fleet.

It also teaches the likelihood of success in most things increases with teamwork. At the end of the day each Mid takes his own test sure, however, forming study groups is a great way to ensure you and your plebe-friends understand a given subject and the concepts the professor is trying to pass along.

Our son also enjoyed a CVW this weekend, with 12th Company, and had an awesome time. The classes he experienced were chemistry, calculus, English lit., and introduction to cyber. The AP chemistry class he’s taking now is at the same spot as his Mid’s class so they enjoyed talking about it. He also appreciated that an “Intro To Anything” course is meant to expose students to it and many if not most students taking it aren’t majoring in it. This having been written, he’s really torn now as he wanted aerospace but loves to hack computers as well- even got close to getting into trouble for it in high school when he found an open port on a server and gained relay access to classmates contact data on each of their (also unprotected) mobile phones (LOL). He fessed up and they promised to let it slide if he showed them what he did- so they could lock things down. As a former crypto tech, I’ve chatted with him about “ethical hacking” and that it’s super cool and fun when the “good guys” do it. But I digress.

Once Mids accept the time management aspect is supposed to be a challenge they can smile, remain level-headed, make informed choices, and keep moving forward.

Two solid things to which I’ve exposed my son are these, from retired Navy Seal Jocko Willink.

Extreme Ownership: How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win (New Edition): 4708364212683: Willink, Jocko, Babin

Jocko Motivation "GOOD" (From Jocko Podcast) - YouTube

The plebes my son met this past weekend acknowledged the challenges and are laser focused. They connected on Instagram and another app. Great bunch of young adults.
 
I dropped playing a intercollegiate sport at USMA after 1 semester. It was because my grades were suffering and I also knew I would be "riding the pine." Nothing wrong with that decision. What I wanted to comment on is the smarts of the intercollegiate athletes at USMA during my time. I was about middle of the class academically (maybe slightly lower) and I was amazed how smart these dang college athletes in my company were. A couple of hockey players living across from me... waaaay smarter than me and both engineering majors. Starting football wide receiver down the hall... again much smarter than me. I learned quickly to never judge a book by it's cover. Oh, and it wasn't just athletes smarter than me. For whatever reason, all of the women in my company were so dang smart. Back then I really thought that they must only be admitting women that were geniuses.
 
I should add that my son’s assessment of CVW was the academics appeared to be similar to his high school, the plebes hated the place, and he laughed because midshipmen were sleeping in the classes.

After plebe summer, he slept in his classes.
 
I've shared previously, so I won't go into too much detail here. My daughter is a recruited athlete. Her invitation for a visit (not CVW, we are close by) from the coach included watching team practice, sitting in on classes and visiting with team players. The realization that there are moments of fun, hilarity, and commraderie as well as the commitment to serve convinced her it was the right place to go.

She got her LOA recently and just needs finish the noms process. If she gets the appointment offer, you'll hear me screaming from here.

P.S. I think the idea of quitting because varsity athletes might ride the pine is even more important at SA. Deciding to discard an athletic dream to focus on the importance on academics in SA demonstrates a lot of maturity.
 
Maliwon said:
Having recently arrived home after spending the beginning of the weekend in Annapolis for CVW I wanted to share my experiences with those who haven't had the experience themselves. For sake of organization, I'll break it down into the components of athletics, academics, and general daily life as a plebe.

Athletics-
Having talked to many plebes and upperclassmen about their involvement in varsity sports it was very clear to me that any varsity sport is hardly compatible with the academics at USNA. Many of the people I met were initially recruited athletes, however upon the start of the academic year they chose to drop out of their sport due to being unsat in at least one of their classes. The ability to manage a varsity sport and academics is theoretically possible, but those people are not the ones emerging at the top of the class. It seemed that the general theme among Mids was to skip a club sport and do an intramural that took the least time as possible in order to still have time for academics.

Academics-
First off, I only had the opportunity to attend 3 plebe classes - Calc I, Intro Cyber, and Naval History. Of the three, only one was taught by an officer (Calc), and the other two by civilians. The pace that classes moved (especially Calc), was much faster than you would likely have experienced in a high school class, even if you took AP courses. Most Mids either used the supplied tutoring services or should have and were beginning to fall behind. The intro cyber course was horribly boring, and it wasn't just drags that were starting to nod off. Because of the limited amount of sleep in conjunction with the heavy courseload, succeeding in academics has to be your #1 priority for it to happen.

General Plebe Life-
From what I heard, your experience as a plebe will largely depend on your company (Free 19!). Some companies have morning workouts 6x a week, others as little as 3x. If you don't get to bed early, your ability to focus on your classes the next day will suffer. Being a plebe is very restrictive, from having to walk in the middle of the hallway to doing the chow call, but I found it not as restricting as I might have thought. Though the general thought about these restrictions was that "this sucks" and "this is stupid," yet even then it's viewed as a right of passage by the plebes until they become upperclassmen. The bond among Mids was massive, so much so that my Mid described the company as being similar to a fraternity. Mids worked together to study for classes and proknow, and it was probably my favorite part of the experience.

The Naval Academy had been #1 on my list before visiting, but the visit really allowed me to envision myself there. If you are offered a CVW in the future - definitely take it. It wasn't all sunshine and rainbows, but at least I could get an untainted and unbiased view of what I hope I will be getting myself into.
Click to expand...
I am glad you had the opportunity to do a CVW. It is the best way to see life as a midshipman. I have a varsity athlete and she does amazing with her academics. For her she likes the grind and she is a kid that likes to have too much on her plate bc she is more productive - she has 1 roomie that is a varsity athlete and one that is not. She and the other varsity athlete are very disciplined with their days bc there is no down time so they get their stuff done and get to bed. the non athlete has much more time in the afternoon and tends to wait to start homework till very late at night after having hours to get it done - both my daughter and her varsity roomie have much better grades than the other. it all depends on the kid. If you have very little time, you learn time management and to prioritize, when you have lots of downtime you can start to procrastinate. Like others have said everyone has different experiences, mine has loved it and absolutely loves her varsity teammates, yes it takes a ton of time but she would not trade it for anything!
 
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