Very good students?

You're worried for nothing. Remember, averages are just that. They indicate that about half the pool is above and about half below. Your kid will not be lonely in that upper pool, and it is foolish to be concerned. Your son is not going to be unique, and USMA is not going to waste his time. Our son was that super student, well-prepared coming from a New England boarding school, validated every Plebe class possible and started Plebe year much further along in the curriculum stream. A+ in Jedi math, etc. Graduated at the top of his EE class this past May. He was not a cohort of one, or ten, or even fifty. There is a very large pool of academic achievers at all the of the academies. So let those concerns go.

Here's what we've come to understand. By design, the academies do not value academics the same way civilian colleges weight them. The SAs value a combination of brains, brawn, and leadership somewhat equally--as they must. Until he was fully into his major, our son was underwhelmed by the academics at West Point. The brain trust is there, but cadets sometimes have to seek it out. When he discussed this with his department head, the LTC explained to him that only about one third of any incoming class is selected for academic chops; the other 2/3rds are chosen for other equally shiny traits. All are academically capable, all pass the academic bar, but only that third is what you might label “scholarly.” Our son learned to value those other critical equally shiny traits in his band of brothers very highly. The corps needs a balance of all of them in a way civilian colleges do not as their missions differ vastly. The Army puts it this way (as inscribed in stone at West Point):

The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides-

The service academies are looking to produce capable officers for each branch of our armed services. It takes a certain kind of kid to go this route, and those kids don’t always look like the applicants to the usual civilian suspects. If academics rather than service is the main concern of any applicant's college evaluation, then the SAs probably aren't for them, not because that applicant can't be academically satisfied (s/he can) but because getting through a service academy and the years of service that follow takes a gut commitment to something else. And it's the "something else" that the academies are about.

Also, if your son is appointed, he will find that where he is strong, he will help others, and where he is weak others will help him. That's how the three pillars (academics, physical, military/leadership) work. Our son was an academic tutor, but he gratefully and humbly received help in areas he was not so strong. Though a champion rower, he struggled with several aspects of the IOCT. He was always amazed at the spirit of competitive cooperation around him. When he was struggling with the rope climb or other maneuver, another cadet always stopped his own workout to assist, give pointers, and help him be better. No one is equally strong in every pillar. All benefit from the different expertises around them. The sooner each cadet learns to accept as well as give help and to sincerely value what each cadet brings to the table, the stronger and more successful s/he will be.

I have posted here many times that I think our son had better college options, but he got the academic experience he needed and was seeking at West Point. West Point was able to deliver; he was not disappointed, and he certainly wasn't alone.
 
Our son learned to value those other critical equally shiny traits in his band of brothers very highly. The corps needs a balance of all of them in a way civilian colleges do not as their missions differ vastly. The Army puts it this way (as inscribed in stone at West Point):

If I could "like" this post a thousand times, I would.
 
You're worried for nothing. Remember, averages are just that. They indicate that about half the pool is above and about half below. Your kid will not be lonely in that upper pool, and it is foolish to be concerned. Your son is not going to be unique, and USMA is not going to waste his time. Our son was that super student, well-prepared coming from a New England boarding school, validated every Plebe class possible and started Plebe year much further along in the curriculum stream. A+ in Jedi math, etc. Graduated at the top of his EE class this past May. He was not a cohort of one, or ten, or even fifty. There is a very large pool of academic achievers at all the of the academies. So let those concerns go.

Here's what we've come to understand. By design, the academies do not value academics the same way civilian colleges weight them. The SAs value a combination of brains, brawn, and leadership somewhat equally--as they must. Until he was fully into his major, our son was underwhelmed by the academics at West Point. The brain trust is there, but cadets sometimes have to seek it out. When he discussed this with his department head, the LTC explained to him that only about one third of any incoming class is selected for academic chops; the other 2/3rds are chosen for other equally shiny traits. All are academically capable, all pass the academic bar, but only that third is what you might label “scholarly.” Our son learned to value those other critical equally shiny traits in his band of brothers very highly. The corps needs a balance of all of them in a way civilian colleges do not as their missions differ vastly. The Army puts it this way (as inscribed in stone at West Point):

The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides-

The service academies are looking to produce capable officers for each branch of our armed services. It takes a certain kind of kid to go this route, and those kids don’t always look like the applicants to the usual civilian suspects. If academics rather than service is the main concern of any applicant's college evaluation, then the SAs probably aren't for them, not because that applicant can't be academically satisfied (s/he can) but because getting through a service academy and the years of service that follow takes a gut commitment to something else. And it's the "something else" that the academies are about.

Also, if your son is appointed, he will find that where he is strong, he will help others, and where he is weak others will help him. That's how the three pillars (academics, physical, military/leadership) work. Our son was an academic tutor, but he gratefully and humbly received help in areas he was not so strong. Though a champion rower, he struggled with several aspects of the IOCT. He was always amazed at the spirit of competitive cooperation around him. When he was struggling with the rope climb or other maneuver, another cadet always stopped his own workout to assist, give pointers, and help him be better. No one is equally strong in every pillar. All benefit from the different expertises around them. The sooner each cadet learns to accept as well as give help and to sincerely value what each cadet brings to the table, the stronger and more successful s/he will be.

I have posted here many times that I think our son had better college options, but he got the academic experience he needed and was seeking at West Point. West Point was able to deliver; he was not disappointed.
@VelveteenR it was precisely my seeing YOUR post in which you said you thought he had better college options that prompted this entire thread. When he told me USMA, I was initially thrilled, based on my prior experience with SA students and graduates. Then I dug in on academics and started getting concerned. Then I learned fro his MALO about the 1/3 academic chops and other aspects, and came full circle and wholeheartedly embraced the whole person concept and how beneficial I know it would be for DS in particular, if he's fortunate enough to get an appointment.
Then I saw your post in the 'how did you react' thread and that made me want to post this. But all the answers were very affirming. He's got a lot of great qualities to his application (sports and solidly above average on all CFA scores), but his academics are the strongest part, so I hope it all comes together for him.
 
All great answers. To @davejean90 you don't need to talk me into anything, and my son is 100% enthusiastic. It's easy to say I don't "get it", ie the totality of the place. I do get it. But it's certainly a fair question when the SA's tout not only their leadership and army fitness but also their academics. Do they not? They do. And when you read articles that I'm sure all of us have seen that question the academic commitment of some of the students, it's a fair line of inquiry I've opened up, with which others on this thread have graciously engaged.
I've read a LOT about the students and these issues and these answers reinforced all the positive thoughts I had and why I'm very supportive of his applying to USMA. And despite his grades and total package, I'm not remotely sure he'll get an appointment. NJ, like Southern Cal., is very competitive for nominations and appointments.
I thought it would be interesting to hear all these perspectives, including yours for sure, and you guys didn't disappoint!

West Point Mission: THE PREEMINENT LEADER DEVELOPMENT INSTITUTION

The U.S. Military Academy at West Point's mission is "to educate, train, and inspire the Corps of Cadets so that each graduate is a commissioned leader of character committed to the values of Duty, Honor, Country and prepared for a career of professional excellence and service to the Nation as an officer in the United States Army."

Source https://westpoint.edu/

I personally have never thought any SA contains the BEST academic persons. I have always thought of them as containing the people who have the potential to be the best leaders. I’ve never tied that to only academics, but rather a whole person. I don’t know if I am in the minority holding that viewpoint or if you are, holding a focused viewpoint of academics. Regardless, the mission, as stated by USMA, is not on academics. Rather producing the production of leaders as stated above. I don’t see “touting academics”. Make sure eyes are wide open!
 
but his academics are the strongest part

Each appointee has a "strongest part." And each of those parts sought by the military is EQUALLY necessary and valued by the academies. Funny how easily we seem to think academics should be valued as most important. It's that mindset that exposes a misunderstanding of what the academies are about. @justdoit19's post above is correct on that point, I think.
 
I have a cadet at WP and also older children who attended different colleges. Let me talk for a minute about my other children. Two of them attended colleges where they were academically in the top 10% (or maybe even higher) of their class. In most of their classes, they were not with academic peers. There were benefits to this as teachers notice the students who excel academically and write glowing letters of reference when needed for scholarships and grad school. All kinds of opportunities came their way because their teachers noticed their academic achievements. So, sometimes it is good to be a big fish in a small pond. I will also add that they found ways to academically themselves. If your son wants a greater challenge, he will be able to find it.

Now about WP, your cadet likely will not walk on water in all areas. As I understand it, plebe boxing and swimming challenge many a new cadet. I've heard comments like "I've never been so happy to receive a D" about those classes. Many excel in one area - academic, physical or military - but not in all three. WP will find his weak spot and he will be challenged to improve it.

Good luck to him.

And if he does get accepted, check out the WP Parent's Club of NJ. You'll meet a great group of parents. :)
 
Just curious, what is your DS planning to major in? The reason I ask, is that I believe math is math and engineering is engineering. It's the same curriculum and course of study at USMA or MIT. The laws of physics are the same on all campuses. You can get the same quality education at either. Or, probably at any major state university. So why do you care if the bottom of the class is not as academically minded as your DS?
 
But, the fact remains that many of the kids are not top tier academically.

No they are not. But they are top tier at something, whether it be leadership or athletics or something else. Your concern should be less about whether your DA will be surrounded by academic inferiors, but whether he will be properly challenged academically. And for that, you should feel very well assured.

An example from a different SA: DD was almost at the top of her class at a small private high school. All As, tons of AP courses, ran out of math classes after junior year, nearly perfect SAT. Got to USNA and validated Calc 1, Chem 1 and English 1. She said it was clear that she was better prepared for the academic challenge than many of her shipmates. And yet life was not a breeze — far from it! She struggled at times. Got a D on an exam for the first time in her life. Couple of Cs too, I believe. Had to work hard...very hard. Nothing came easy.

So it hardly mattered how others were doing. She had enough challenges keeping her own head above water. Yet she learned a ton and was proud of her outcomes. That, ultimately, is what should matter on the academic front.
 
I have a cadet at WP and also older children who attended different colleges. Let me talk for a minute about my other children. Two of them attended colleges where they were academically in the top 10% (or maybe even higher) of their class. In most of their classes, they were not with academic peers. There were benefits to this as teachers notice the students who excel academically and write glowing letters of reference when needed for scholarships and grad school. All kinds of opportunities came their way because their teachers noticed their academic achievements. So, sometimes it is good to be a big fish in a small pond. I will also add that they found ways to academically themselves. If your son wants a greater challenge, he will be able to find it.

Now about WP, your cadet likely will not walk on water in all areas. As I understand it, plebe boxing and swimming challenge many a new cadet. I've heard comments like "I've never been so happy to receive a D" about those classes. Many excel in one area - academic, physical or military - but not in all three. WP will find his weak spot and he will be challenged to improve it.

Good luck to him.

And if he does get accepted, check out the WP Parent's Club of NJ. You'll meet a great group of parents. :)
So why do you care if the bottom of the class is not as academically minded as your DS?
This is a key question. If your DS's behavior and treatment of his fellow cadets stems from how high he regards their academic prowess, then he will have problems both as a cadet and as an Army Officer.
You shouldn't assume, from his father's question, how DS will treat other cadets, should you? No, you shouldn't.
 
Just curious, what is your DS planning to major in? The reason I ask, is that I believe math is math and engineering is engineering. It's the same curriculum and course of study at USMA or MIT. The laws of physics are the same on all campuses. You can get the same quality education at either. Or, probably at any major state university. So why do you care if the bottom of the class is not as academically minded as your DS?
Not sure yet, but as I mentioned in some other posts I've made on this thread, I just wanted to make sure that he was academically challenged and it sounds like there is certainly a path for that.
 
You shouldn't assume, from his father's question, how DS will treat other cadets, should you? No, you shouldn't.

There is no assumption or offense meant toward the OP here. In fact, I wish the OP's DS nothing but the best and am pleased that he is considering service to his country. The OP asked some thought provoking questions and while the responses here might not pertain to the OP or his DS, the point of these anonymous forums is to provide information for all those who lurk out there who may identify with the situations.
 
But, the fact remains that many of the kids are not top tier academically.

No they are not. But they are top tier at something, whether it be leadership or athletics or something else. Your concern should be less about whether your DA will be surrounded by academic inferiors, but whether he will be properly challenged academically. And for that, you should feel very well assured.

An example from a different SA: DD was almost at the top of her class at a small private high school. All As, tons of AP courses, ran out of math classes after junior year, nearly perfect SAT. Got to USNA and validated Calc 1, Chem 1 and English 1. She said it was clear that she was better prepared for the academic challenge than many of her shipmates. And yet life was not a breeze — far from it! She struggled at times. Got a D on an exam for the first time in her life. Couple of Cs too, I believe. Had to work hard...very hard. Nothing came easy.

So it hardly mattered how others were doing. She had enough challenges keeping her own head above water. Yet she learned a ton and was proud of her outcomes. That, ultimately, is what should matter on the academic front.
Yes, and I think it will be a great and unique environment because of that. BUT, it WOULDN'T be ok if he weren't challenged by the actual subject matter, professor and classmates. He will be in class 20 hours a week. I don't think anyone should imply that would be ok at USMA or any college or for any kid. USMA is a college, the only undergraduate one he'll attend. And if someone disputes this then nope, I guess I don't get it. I've said repeatedly in this thread that I'm all for it because of the overall environment, but it's not wrong for a parent to want their kid to be academically engaged by the coursework their kid takes in college. But this IS the internet, so I guess people gotta argue despite
You shouldn't assume, from his father's question, how DS will treat other cadets, should you? No, you shouldn't.

There is no assumption or offense meant toward the OP here. In fact, I wish the OP's DS nothing but the best and am pleased that he is considering service to his country. The OP asked some thought provoking questions and while the responses here might not pertain to the OP or his DS, the point of these anonymous forums is to provide information for all those who lurk out there who may identify with the situations.
Thank you, that's very kind of you. And believe me, I hope he gets in and attends. I'll be the dad at half or more of the home football games, with the USMA flag outside of my house, hosting cadet classmates when they can get away for a weekend. Just wanted to attack this from all angles. As you all know, this is not like a decision of going to Michigan or Notre Dame or Cornell. It's entirely different and everyone in the family is super excited.
 
I was educated in NJ and went to Notre Dame. I thought I was smart until I got there. Now I realize that I was one of the students bringing down that average. :(

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that if this military gig doesn't work out (and even if it does in some cases) there is always graduate school to challenge oneself academically.
 
I was educated in NJ and went to Notre Dame. I thought I was smart until I got there. Now I realize that I was one of the students bringing down that average. :(

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that if this military gig doesn't work out (and even if it does in some cases) there is always graduate school to challenge oneself academically.
There's always lots of smarter fish out there, you only have to leave a small pond to realize that!
 
DS is a candidate and has test scores in the 98-99% on both ACT and SAT with a 4.35 GPA. In no way does he (or we) feel confident he'll get an appointment based on grades and test scores. He was a little stressed today that WP got incorrect CFA scores (a mix up from summer seminar) because he practiced and was prepared for the CFA when he took it. He's in a mostly academic high school (he's only ranked in the top 15% of his class and 8 kids from his class last year scored perfect ACT scores), so he's been challenged academically, both by teachers and his peers. What draws him to the SA's is being challenged in all the other areas that a SA offers. Leaders are born in so many different ways and different places.
 
WP is the jewel of DoD and will always be the "premier" SA. Not to be boastful, but federal funding will always be there to keep the oldest and longest post operating. 80% of instructors are active military which is the a big difference to other academies. They have a deep ownership core value and belief. However, cynicism is rampant at WP. Ive often pondered..... is this the type of leadership trait we want? WP is not for everyone. A Cadets every minute of their day is dictated. Both of my sons noticed......"high school hero....West Point zero.

Push Hard, Press Forward
 
WP is the jewel of DoD and will always be the "premier" SA.

Well, this was a topic about academics, so I just want to point out that the average SAT scores at USNA are about 100 pts higher than USMA according to “PrepScholar”
 
DS is a candidate and has test scores in the 98-99% on both ACT and SAT with a 4.35 GPA. In no way does he (or we) feel confident he'll get an appointment based on grades and test scores. He was a little stressed today that WP got incorrect CFA scores (a mix up from summer seminar) because he practiced and was prepared for the CFA when he took it. He's in a mostly academic high school (he's only ranked in the top 15% of his class and 8 kids from his class last year scored perfect ACT scores), so he's been challenged academically, both by teachers and his peers. What draws him to the SA's is being challenged in all the other areas that a SA offers. Leaders are born in so many different ways and different places.

Yep, my son feels similarly. He said he doesn’t want to go to a college where people waste a lot of time (like he knows I did and his sister does). As for the application, I empathize. I think my son’s application is strong academically (like yours) above average CFA, average athletics (varsity football, but nothing outstanding) and below average in terms of leadership. So we sure aren’t counting on anything, especially in our populous state.
Best of luck to your DS!
 
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