VMI and the Citadel

[jasperdog]

I attached Ldybtlr's original post for reference about why we are discussing these differences...
....
Jasperdog,
Sorry that you seem to be offended. However, I stand by my point that VMI is significantly different. Parents/prospective cadets deserve to know these differences so they can make a major life-long decision based upon fact, not rumor or emotion. ... Bottom line: VMI is different

NAS: I agree VMI is different and that's what Ldybtlr asked. I am not offended. I merely took exception to you presenting things as "fact" that had and continue to have no substantiating data or citations. I think the stuff you now offer, while only anecdotal in nature are far more on point to answering the questions, especially if it's meant to present examples of the differences in the cultures and traditions of the two institutions. I also pointed out and continue to do so that any expectation the tenor of your response wasn't going to illicit a bunch of grief and chest puffing from those of us who graduated elsewhere was at best, naive'.

 

[America's Finest]

I think it is interesting that the only people who say how much the Citadel and VMI are alike are Citadel graduates...
In fact, VMI is not like any other military college in the U.S. and here are just a couple of reasons why:
1. Only cadets attend VMI and it is the most spartan environment you will find anywhere, period. The bonds of VMI graduates and the networks of VMI alumni are without equal.
2. VMI has graduated more general and flag officers than any other "state military college" including more 4 stars than any other college or "military college" in the nation. Consider VMI is also the smallest of all the "military colleges."
3. Per capita, VMI has the largest endowment fund of any public college (military college or civilian college) in the nation.
4. VMI's academics are unmatched--more Rhodes Scholars than all the "military colleges" COMBINED... not to mention Marshall Scholars, Fulbright Scholars, etc.
5. VMI still holds cadets accountable--honor violations result in a "drum out." VMI is the only military school or academy that practices this--and when the AF Academy had major and wide-spread honor code and cheating scandal violations, the Academy chose this option as a "temporary measure" to get the USAFA cadets back in line...
VMI is unique, it stands alone, and it is a very interesting and uncommon place... even to graduates of other military colleges. There is something about VMI that you don't see anywhere else, and you can't explain it.

In terms of our nation's military academies, they are great. However, many of the academy instructors and assistant professors would not be qualified to teach at VMI as nearly all VMI instructors and professors hold a PhD in their field. In terms of military rigor, the academies cannot match the military rigor or the spartan life of the VMI cadets--I strongly suggest anyone who is interested in VMI take a close look and visit the school... it is unlike anything else out there.

The only one of your points that is valid when comparing to the SA is the honor code one (they certainly are tough about it). The SA are all cadet schools as well and form tight bonds as well among graduates.

As far as the instructors at VMI, I would judge the results more than the proccess. The SA do have a lot more Rhode Scholars and Generals.

I normally don't partake in this sort of discussion but seeing you say all that nonsense about VMI being God's gift to mankind just needed to be addressed. All military schools have their pros and cons. That's all there is to it.

We are not all alike. Therefore, we cannot expect one single school to be the best for all of us. A community college with ROTC may help one student become the best leader in the world while another will achieve their potential easier in a different environment.

*I am not trying to say the SA are better than VMI or any school for that matter. I just know more about the SA than any other military school so its the ones I brought up for comparison. I believe VMI is a reputable school and indeed one of the "top". I just don't think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[RahVaMil2009]

All military schools have their pros and cons. That's all there is to it.

I have nothing to add. I just felt that the above quotation deserved to be read twice.

 

[sprog]

...As far as the insturctors at VMI, I would judge the results more than the proccess. The SA do have a lot more Rhode Scholars.
QUOTE]

This is the kind of stuff that I knew would come from NAS's post. "Mine is bigger than yours." Maybe someone should shut the thread down before it gets nasty.

To the alums/cadets/prospectives/parents of other SMCs/SAs out there who might be thinking of a snarky comment about VMI in reply to the snarky one put against every other military school in the nation, I have a plea: Please realize that not everyone who went to VMI thinks that it is God's gift to the universe, although we are all as proud of our school as you are of yours. Many of us know and respect alums from SAs/other SMCs, and we have served honorably with them on active duty (as well as worked with them in the civilian world). I would ask that you not group us all together due to negative feelings that you might have against a certain post. Thank you--

 

[America's Finest]

...As far as the insturctors at VMI, I would judge the results more than the proccess. The SA do have a lot more Rhode Scholars.
QUOTE]

This is the kind of stuff that I knew would come from NAS's post. "Mine is bigger than yours." Maybe someone should shut the thread down before it gets nasty.

To the alums/cadets/prospectives/parents of other SMCs/SAs out there who might be thinking of a snarky comment about VMI in reply to the snarky one put against every other military school in the nation, I have a plea: Please realize that not everyone who went to VMI thinks that it is God's gift to the universe, although we are all as proud of our school as you are of yours. Many of us know and respect alums from SAs/other SMCs, and we have served honorably with them on active duty (as well as worked with them in the civilian world). I would ask that you not group us all together due to negative feelings that you might have against a certain post. Thank you--

I have friends at VMI as well as friends who will attend there next year.

One should never form an opinion on an organization based on the actions of an individual. Where you are doesn't make you who you are and I truly believe that.

 

[bruno]

Folks- thanks for the spirited back & forth, at this point why don't we take a deep breath or two and let this one rest for a while.

BTW- for those interested- VMI Lacrosse plays UVA today. The Bible says that "faith is being sure of what is hoped for and certain of what is unseen"- I believe as a matter of faith that VMI will beat the #1 team in the country today- but I must confess to a suspicion that this outcome may remain unseen. If they win though- Party at Sprog's house if you can find it!!

 

[SF49ers]

I think that just about everything has been addressed here, so I see no need to reiterate. However, I do feel the need to explain this, another matter:

1. Many years ago, a gentleman working on our squadron's copy machine asked about my VMI ring. He proceeded with some good-natured ribbing about VMI and how he was proud of his Citadel ring. In the course of our discussion, he told me that he was not a cadet, but he went to community college in Charleston, transfered his credits and continued part-time to get his Citadel Bachelor's degree, diploma, and ring. He was never a cadet...

To clarify, all Citadel graduates receive a ring upon graduation. The Band of Gold, given to graduating cadets, is different than those rings given to the few evening undergraduate or veteran students. Just as for graduates of many non-military schools, graduation rings are a tradition. For this reason, non-cadet graduates will receive a ring to commemorate their accomplishment.

 

[knightsdad]

sf49er is absolutely right on target.....every cadet graduate from the Citadel wears identical rings except for the class numerals....Veteran students/civilians have a different ring....very trivial to all except those of us who wear the band of gold.....

By the way.....Having a son at West Point I must say that The Citadel is far superior to that particular SA....****JUST KIDDING***** Very proud of West Points Forbes ranking this past year......Bottom Line.....Im very proud of all the young women and men who elect to attend any of the SA/ SMC Definately the harder-less traveled path

 

[bruno]

sf49er is absolutely right on target.....every cadet graduate from the Citadel wears identical rings except for the class numerals....

Knightsdad- at VMI when I was a Cadet each class designed one "Class" side of the ring and then there was the "Institute" side that stayed the same. Much to my chagrin- now each VMI class designs both sides of the ring (which to me is too bad as the ring ought to symbolize some continuity- but not my call I guess. Since my ring at this point is so worn out that you can't read any of the stuff on the side I guess in the long run it doesn't matter so much). Does each class at the Citadel do any modifications to the ring design at all?

 

[SF49ers]

For about a hundred years or so The Band of Gold has been standardized. I'm not sure of the exact year, but I believe it was around 1900. The only thing that changes now is the graduation year. Before Parent's Weekend, knobs have to memorize the significance of the major designs on the ring, so that they can explain them to their Senior Mentor's parents after they receive their rings.

 

[knightsdad]

Bruno.....Again sf49ers is correct. No modifications are made except for the two numerals indicating the class year on top.....I have a great friend, was stationed in the Air Force with him for many years, from VMI and his ring was huge..... It was an attractive ring......West Point does the same sort of thing as your previous tradition....One side of the ring is the Academy crest and the other is the Class Crest.....

 

[SF49ers]

http://www.citadel.edu/sccc/traditions/the-ring.html

A quick description of the ring and its features.

 

[bruno]

Thanks SF49er!: I thought that you might find it interesting to see the progression of VMI rings from the class of 1848 thru to the just graduated class of 2009 (Couldn't find mine anywhere so went to my son's Dyke's class for an example). The word Mizpah which is in the class of 1848's ring and is in the design of the class of 2012 comes from Genesis and means:

"May the Lord watch between you and me when we are absent one from another."

and signifies the close and caring ties between Brother Rats that will endure long after graduation
Class of 2009:

Class of 1848- first class to wear a ring:

 

[sprog]

I think there is a happy medium somewhere between the 1848 ring and the rings of recent decades. I'm always proud of my ring, but what I thought looked cool when I was a cadet (because it's so big) is, in reality, a little too big to be practical. It actually hurts my hand to wear it, and if I shake someone's hand, it crushes my knuckles. That, and my fingers got fatter (my own fault ).

 

[bruno]

I think there is a happy medium somewhere between the 1848 ring and the rings of recent decades. I'm always proud of my ring, but what I thought looked cool when I was a cadet (because it's so big) is, in reality, a little too big to be practical. It actually hurts my hand to wear it, and if I shake someone's hand, it crushes my knuckles. That, and my fingers got fatter (my own fault ).

I think you're right. The class of 2012 will be ordering their rings in May- the josten's folks just gave their presentation and sent the ring information home- the largest and apparently the standard size for the class is 44 pennyweight which is just nuts- Iwear my ring all the time and have for 31 years-it is beat to pieces from me banging it all of the time- and the cost of these things is approaching the stratosphere. Everyone now also buys a steel "Combat Ring" - I guess because the rings have gotten so expensive that you don't want to wear it all the time- but is seems to me that if it is so big and so costly that you have to have an everyday ring then you probably are a couple of degrees over the top. Having said that- I don't think I will have any luck with this viewpoint with my son who seems bound to get the mega size himself - hopefully he will at least listen to me and go with 10k vs 18k which is too expensive and too soft to be a smart choice- but then what does Dad know?

 

[RahVaMil2009]

(Couldn't find mine anywhere so went to my son's Dyke's class for an example).

Thanks for the shout out, Bruno. Has your little Third-tie shown you the Class of 2012 ring design yet? It's pretty sweet. My rat's roommate was one of the primary ring designers.

(Maybe we should split this discussion off into a separate ring knocking thread?)

 

[sprog]

I think you're right. The class of 2012 will be ordering their rings in May- the josten's folks just gave their presentation and sent the ring information home- the largest and apparently the standard size for the class is 44 pennyweight which is just nuts- Iwear my ring all the time and have for 31 years-it is beat to pieces from me banging it all of the time- and the cost of these things is approaching the stratosphere. Everyone now also buys a steel "Combat Ring" - I guess because the rings have gotten so expensive that you don't want to wear it all the time- but is seems to me that if it is so big and so costly that you have to have an everyday ring then you probably are a couple of degrees over the top. Having said that- I don't think I will have any luck with this viewpoint with my son who seems bound to get the mega size himself - hopefully he will at least listen to me and go with 10k vs 18k which is too expensive and too soft to be a smart choice- but then what does Dad know?

44pw is out of control!!! Mine is 40, which was "the biggest college ring in America" at the time, and it is monstrously huge. Definitely go with the 10k, it holds up much better.

We had combat rings too, but I have long since lost mine. A BR of mine had his lifted off of his finger while we were on Spring Break in Cancun First Class Year. He was "sleeping" on a bus while it happened. I'm sure you can figure out the details. Who says you don't have any fun at VMI? He was majorly pissed once he realized it.

 

[rally1]

Visited both schools--there are differences

I first viewed this blog several months ago as time approached for my son to make a decision--I held off on commenting for a while now. My son was interested in VMI and possibly the Citadel. After learning more about the schools, the cadet life, their graduates (military and civilian), and alumni statistics--and after visiting both schools, I must say that I saw a tremendous difference. Fortunately, my son was accepted at his #1 choice and is attending VMI!

 

[larry2013]

Congrats to your son AND WELCOME... is he just starting this august?
There is terrific info from several on this site - was a great help to me last year as my son went off.
enjoy! larrys mom

 

[USMMA2014mom]

I first viewed this blog several months ago as time approached for my son to make a decision--I held off on commenting for a while now. My son was interested in VMI and possibly the Citadel. After learning more about the schools, the cadet life, their graduates (military and civilian), and alumni statistics--and after visiting both schools, I must say that I saw a tremendous difference. Fortunately, my son was accepted at his #1 choice and is attending VMI!

Congratulations on a wonderful choice for your son. My oldest son just completed his Rat year at VMI. He was accepted to VMI, the Citadel, VT, and received an apppointment to USMMA. He loved VMI so much on his overnight visit so that is where is decided to go, and yes there is the ratline, straining and alot of other things that go on that in the end produce fine young men and women, some who will serve in the armed forces and some that will go on to the civilian sector...all that will be successful, with a very strong and tight Alumni Assoc. The Honor Code at VMI is also very strict, as they do not tolerate any lying, cheating or stealing, and there are no second chances, drumming outs are an often occurrence and serve almost as a scared straight environment for the new rats onboard. My second son, who just graduated is now in his indoc period at USMMA, he too was accepted to VMI, but really liked Kings Point on his overnight visit. Either way, my boys will commission in the Marine Corps as ever since they were little they have wanted to follow in their fathers footsteps, and I am very proud of the young men that they have become. Be proud of your son this is a great accomplishment.

On another note, depending on what someone's child is looking for, a commission in an armed service, or just the military environment for college, there are so many wonderful choices. All of the service academies provide the training for the specified services, and then VMI, the Citadel, and USMMA offer a wide variety of opportunities to those that attend.

Good Luck to all that are searching for the right choice. From our experience the overnight visits really help in the decision making, but my advice would be to do them when the ratline, knobs, and plebe sessions are in full force, so that the prospective student sees how their first year will truly be.

Proud Mom of a VMI Cadet, a USMMA Midshipman and wife to a retired Marine and USNA Grad