VMI and the Citadel
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Good point, just want to ensure facts are straight, at least. This topic brings up much angst and seems most alum are unhappy about direction the school is headed. In the end, Jcleppe you're right--it is what it is--really doesn't matter.
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It can matter to the local community....
When a college offers graduate programs and/or extension classes to the surrounding community, it becomes an expanded resource. As a result, sometimes people give back. The only billionaire in South Carolina, Anita Zucker just donated $4 million dollars to the Citadel's College of Education (see link below).
Why this school? Well, it might be due to the fact that as a local schoolteacher in the 70's she attended classes there, plus her son obtained his MBA also from El Cid.
Does this make Citadel "better" than VMI? No, just different. Both have a great reputation for their Corps of Cadets, but one institution has chosen to offer extended/graduate education and the other has not. This is a strategic planning issue for each college to decide.
Source:
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20141111/PC16/141119823
When a college offers graduate programs and/or extension classes to the surrounding community, it becomes an expanded resource. As a result, sometimes people give back. The only billionaire in South Carolina, Anita Zucker just donated $4 million dollars to the Citadel's College of Education (see link below).
Why this school? Well, it might be due to the fact that as a local schoolteacher in the 70's she attended classes there, plus her son obtained his MBA also from El Cid.
Does this make Citadel "better" than VMI? No, just different. Both have a great reputation for their Corps of Cadets, but one institution has chosen to offer extended/graduate education and the other has not. This is a strategic planning issue for each college to decide.
Source:
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20141111/PC16/141119823
Thanks for the explanation, I should have expanded my comment to read...."Why does this matter to those that are seeking a commission in regards to their training and education".
I can see how the extra endowments could be very helpful to any school.
Thanks again.
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Now on THAT I agree with you 100%. I find the bickering about this issue just goes on and on.
DS has leaned towards The Citadel primarily due to "feeling" he got after spending time visiting both colleges (In fact he spent a week in Lexington and only two days in Charleston).
But I would be proud for my DS to attend either Corps of Cadets.
Gokings814 and Jcleppe--you both make outstanding points. I pondered on this question a bit and thought back to past conversations with fellow VMI grads--and I'd say most VMI grads would not be supportive of such programs at the Institute, and here's why: It's hard to understand unless you've lived it, and it is definitely intangible, but it's a unifying feature that ALL alumni, regardless of time, have experienced something uniquely VMI, something similar, and something very tough. VMI grads never have to ask each other, "were you a cadet?" The VMI experience is being a cadet... period.
Now, other schools such as Texas A&M, Citadel, Norwich, VT, and NGA all have these types of programs and they have worked out great for the schools. They definitely bring in much needed $ for the schools and they expand the support and revenue base. I would also be proud if my children went to any of these fine schools. As Gokings814 said, it's up to the school to decide. In the end, it really doesn't matter, but I hope the Institute does not ever decide to have these types of programs. Just one opinion...
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No. Most colleges consider your TAX home as your state of residency. Texas A and M will consider granting in state tuition if you are a scholarship recipient. Most SMCs however are tough on residency.
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there has been considerable discussion at The Citadel about granting in state rates or at least some kind of discount to military families and veterans, many alumni also wonder why they cant get a break on the out of state tuition for their children. Unfortunately with state support at only 8% of the budget and money tight it just isn't economically feasible.
SGTLee
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+1 Bob
Totally share in your wishes and that of the many who have served in and around the beautiful Palmetto state. There's just no "in state" SMC remotely close to the west coast and wish my time in Columbia, SC (having served in the Army) could somehow count for something :-(..
In the end, I live in a state where 40% of the Cal Sate and Univ. of CA students are from outside CA. It's clear that we've not only been taxed into oblivion, but if our kids want to attend a state school they'll have to spend a good 5 to 6 years trying to graduate as we're so impacted.
It is refreshing to have TAMU and UNG consider these cadets as quasi residents. We'll remain positive and see what happens. Happy Holidays to all.
Totally share in your wishes and that of the many who have served in and around the beautiful Palmetto state. There's just no "in state" SMC remotely close to the west coast and wish my time in Columbia, SC (having served in the Army) could somehow count for something :-(..
In the end, I live in a state where 40% of the Cal Sate and Univ. of CA students are from outside CA. It's clear that we've not only been taxed into oblivion, but if our kids want to attend a state school they'll have to spend a good 5 to 6 years trying to graduate as we're so impacted.
It is refreshing to have TAMU and UNG consider these cadets as quasi residents. We'll remain positive and see what happens. Happy Holidays to all.
Cluelessparent
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That is understandable..... even with Guard scholarships and academic scholarships out of state would have been tough to swing. At least the sibling just started this year and hopefully he finishes this year
Minigunman123
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New knob-to-be
Hello,
I just got accepted to The Citadel and invited to attend The Citadel Scholar Competition in February, and I'm extremely excited to compete, and see the campus.
However, the only real way for me to attend The Citadel is to get a scholarship; I can't afford by any means, the tuition to attend, and my parents are unable to help as well. I'm wondering if anybody knows any other decent scholarships I might be able to pursue for myself, if I don't win one of the full scholarships to The Citadel. I'm going to apply to their NROTC unit for a scholarship, but are there any others that I could apply/compete for, for The Citadel?
Thanks to everyone for the information in this thread, and have a great holiday season.
Hello,
I just got accepted to The Citadel and invited to attend The Citadel Scholar Competition in February, and I'm extremely excited to compete, and see the campus.
However, the only real way for me to attend The Citadel is to get a scholarship; I can't afford by any means, the tuition to attend, and my parents are unable to help as well. I'm wondering if anybody knows any other decent scholarships I might be able to pursue for myself, if I don't win one of the full scholarships to The Citadel. I'm going to apply to their NROTC unit for a scholarship, but are there any others that I could apply/compete for, for The Citadel?
Thanks to everyone for the information in this thread, and have a great holiday season.
Are you applying for the AROTC Scholarship as well, or only NROTC?
I'm just going to trow this out there because it has been discussed much in the past. Be careful attending a school that you can only afford if you have a scholarship, especially a ROTC Scholarship. You can lose the scholarship if you fail to meet the terms of the ROTC Contract, and there are many ways that can happen. Grades, MIP or MIC, Medical, Fail to pass the APFT, Legal issues, even a traffic ticket over $250.00 can be a big issue. If something happens the first year you at least do not have to pay back the scholarship, if your disenrolled after the start of your sophomore year you would be on the hook for all the tuition. Remember that ROTC pays the full rack rate for tuition and that would be the amount you would be required to pay back.
The big question you should answer is, would I be able to afford the school without the scholarship or would you need to drop and transfer to a different school.
Nobody goes into this thinking there will be an issue, but every year things happen to cadets that result in disenrollment. Just be aware of the risks of attending a school with a high tuition rate, make sure you have a back up plan.
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Full Metal Bulldog
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^I know this is off-topic, but just to clarify, I was told as of this year all traffic tickets, regardless of violation or fine, go to Cadet Command for evaluation now. Part of the Army's tightening standards.
Yikes, drive carefully.
Citadel - and Costs - New Knob to be
Minigunman123 -
I understand high cost of any college today, have put 2 daughters through expensive colleges and grad school recently. Also appreciate the cautions others are giving you re dependency on a scholarship. The Citadel for out of state Cadets is about average for what you may find at a small private college outside the Northeast - $48,000 more or less full boat. In the Northeast you would be looking at $60,000 full cost without any discounts. Especially if you do not intend to study for a STEM major (science, math or engineering major) - a liberal arts degree today is a balancing act of considerations.
By the way if your grades and scores are really good, The Citadel will invite you to compete for academic scholarships and grants - they send a letter to you inviting you to compete - don't ignore this letter if you get one, as being a public college there are relatively few academic grants in aid. If considering other small colleges - and if you have the academic credentials - talk to the Finance and Admissions Office and explain your situation frankly and honestly. If you fit in the upper scale of that school's incoming class profile, you might well be offered a discount off their sticker price, especially at a private college - but study their fine print carefully. This is especially true if you earn an ROTC scholarship. Some on this and other forums have warned that initial discounts and grants by Admissions and Finance offices have been off set when the ROTC scholarship is awarded. Get whatever grant is offered in writing if you can and know if an offset is possible.
I would challenge the negative tone of some on this board though about maintaining an ROTC scholarship once at the school of your choice, and what might, could, may possibly, happen. Most young men and women who are personally responsible (and whose character, and academic preparation are such as to earn a 4 or 3 year ROTC scholarship) are successful in college. And, it is far more likely a student who is personally responsible and academically prepared will be successful at a small college like The Citadel, VMI, or other similar small college, where you will get personal attention of faculty and staff - if for some reason your grades suffer, or some other issue comes up.
Going to a large in-state university is an option, as is a community college and then transferring to a college for the last 2 years. Many ROTC units have agreements with junior colleges and universities to have students attend the ROTC unit nearby. A word of caution though about this seemingly less costly option - while there are great universities within many states with ROTC units, compare this type of educational route with a small college like The Citadel or VMI or similar small school. Can you do well in a class of thousands (some Freshman 101 classes at universities involve several hundred students taught by teaching assistants with little interest in you). And will a community college atmosphere with largely diverse student body and varying quality of academics, prepare you? Are you prepared to attend 5 or 6 years - because at large universities or as a transfer student, you may not get into the classes you need to graduate in 4 years (often upperclass students have priority). The national average graduation rate for all colleges is actually very low - and these rates are often given in terms of 5 or 6 year averages. Bottom line - you get what you pay for. Compare and trust yourself and your instincts. Good luck
Minigunman123 -
I understand high cost of any college today, have put 2 daughters through expensive colleges and grad school recently. Also appreciate the cautions others are giving you re dependency on a scholarship. The Citadel for out of state Cadets is about average for what you may find at a small private college outside the Northeast - $48,000 more or less full boat. In the Northeast you would be looking at $60,000 full cost without any discounts. Especially if you do not intend to study for a STEM major (science, math or engineering major) - a liberal arts degree today is a balancing act of considerations.
By the way if your grades and scores are really good, The Citadel will invite you to compete for academic scholarships and grants - they send a letter to you inviting you to compete - don't ignore this letter if you get one, as being a public college there are relatively few academic grants in aid. If considering other small colleges - and if you have the academic credentials - talk to the Finance and Admissions Office and explain your situation frankly and honestly. If you fit in the upper scale of that school's incoming class profile, you might well be offered a discount off their sticker price, especially at a private college - but study their fine print carefully. This is especially true if you earn an ROTC scholarship. Some on this and other forums have warned that initial discounts and grants by Admissions and Finance offices have been off set when the ROTC scholarship is awarded. Get whatever grant is offered in writing if you can and know if an offset is possible.
I would challenge the negative tone of some on this board though about maintaining an ROTC scholarship once at the school of your choice, and what might, could, may possibly, happen. Most young men and women who are personally responsible (and whose character, and academic preparation are such as to earn a 4 or 3 year ROTC scholarship) are successful in college. And, it is far more likely a student who is personally responsible and academically prepared will be successful at a small college like The Citadel, VMI, or other similar small college, where you will get personal attention of faculty and staff - if for some reason your grades suffer, or some other issue comes up.
Going to a large in-state university is an option, as is a community college and then transferring to a college for the last 2 years. Many ROTC units have agreements with junior colleges and universities to have students attend the ROTC unit nearby. A word of caution though about this seemingly less costly option - while there are great universities within many states with ROTC units, compare this type of educational route with a small college like The Citadel or VMI or similar small school. Can you do well in a class of thousands (some Freshman 101 classes at universities involve several hundred students taught by teaching assistants with little interest in you). And will a community college atmosphere with largely diverse student body and varying quality of academics, prepare you? Are you prepared to attend 5 or 6 years - because at large universities or as a transfer student, you may not get into the classes you need to graduate in 4 years (often upperclass students have priority). The national average graduation rate for all colleges is actually very low - and these rates are often given in terms of 5 or 6 year averages. Bottom line - you get what you pay for. Compare and trust yourself and your instincts. Good luck
Minigunman123,
As I've said many times before on this forum, there are some very distinct differences between VMI and the Citadel--I would encourage you to do your homework and learn the facts before making a final decision. WRT money, scholarships, etc.: VMI has many geographical scholarships provided to cadets from different cities, counties, etc. which are available by simply coming to VMI from that certain area. And this is not just in Virginia, there are many states that have such a benefit. For example, General Pate, a VMI graduate who was the 21st Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, was from South Carolina and took part in establishing such a scholarship for South Carolina matriculants. The VMI Alumni Affairs office can provide more info. In the past, this has typically been the result of a VMI graduate giving scholarship money to VMI for a member of the corps to attend the Institute from his hometown--a way of paying it forward. Also, take a close look at the full editions of college guides at bookstores like Barnes and Noble, etc. and compare the % of student need met by the schools. These steps and more might help you in the decision process--Good Luck!
As I've said many times before on this forum, there are some very distinct differences between VMI and the Citadel--I would encourage you to do your homework and learn the facts before making a final decision. WRT money, scholarships, etc.: VMI has many geographical scholarships provided to cadets from different cities, counties, etc. which are available by simply coming to VMI from that certain area. And this is not just in Virginia, there are many states that have such a benefit. For example, General Pate, a VMI graduate who was the 21st Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, was from South Carolina and took part in establishing such a scholarship for South Carolina matriculants. The VMI Alumni Affairs office can provide more info. In the past, this has typically been the result of a VMI graduate giving scholarship money to VMI for a member of the corps to attend the Institute from his hometown--a way of paying it forward. Also, take a close look at the full editions of college guides at bookstores like Barnes and Noble, etc. and compare the % of student need met by the schools. These steps and more might help you in the decision process--Good Luck!
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I did not intend for my post to be negative, it was meant to be realistic in regard to what can happen. For those that receive scholarships to any university, it's all rainbows and lolly pops to start out with, very few sit down and look at the risks that come with these scholarships, which many refer to as loans rather then scholarships, which in reality is what they actually are.
The attrition rate among 4 year scholarship recipients is higher then Cadet Command would like, this is why they are looking at implementing new tests before contracting.
While it may not sound pleasant to list the ways one can lose a scholarship, it does not mean that these things do not happen every year at many schools, even the Citadel, VMI, and the other SMC's have these issues.
Being a 4 or 3 year scholarship awardee does not guarantee character and personal responsibility, and for many that academic preparation hits a fast moving train when they actually start college.
Just look at the stats of how many scholarship cadets don't ever pass the APFT at each school.
This board every year has at least on post saying they were disenrolled for one reason or another, and this board is just a very small window into ROTC. Just this year at my son's school, a 4.5 scholarship cadet, high on the oML and received his first branch choice, was set to commission this evening. 30 days ago the commissioning cadets took the required drug test, 3 days ago they let this cadet know he popped hot on the drug test. The cadet was removed from the program 4 days before commissioning and now has a rather large payback. Was this cadet stupid, very much so, but he was also one of those 4 year scholarship cadets everyone believes is responsible.
My point was that these things happen, even to the best cadets, and all cadets should be aware of what can happen. There are also things that happen that are out of the cadet's control, such as injuries and medical issues. While the cadet won't be required to pay back any of the scholarship money, the questions becomes will they be able to afford to stay at the school and complete their degree. Not long ago there was a Mid on this board that was released 2 weeks before commissioning because he did not make weight, he is now on the hook for over $140,000.00.
Again, I in no way meant to be negative to any applicant, I just believe that every applicant should go into this process with their eyes wide open to every possibility.
SMS's and small private universities are not the only small schools with small class sizes. I agree with GLEN, I believe smaller class sizes are a huge benefit. Both my sons went to a small public university and have thrived in that environment, heck my younger sons research class only has 13 students.