West Point Cheating Scandal

Capt MJ said:
Generally speaking, very generally, classes, rightly or wrongly, get reputations. “That class had the most grads make four star general or admiral.” “That class had the most combat deaths in Vietnam.” “That class had the big Double E scandal at USNA.” “That class had the biggest percentage of wash-outs during Beast, Plebe Summer, whatever.” “That class... etc.”
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Very true. I'm lucky enough to be that class with the most four stars and leaders on the yard and USNAAA to this day. We did not know it at the time but during our I day, another part of USNA was busy holding multiple honor boards for a cheating scandal for soon to be second classmen who had cheated on a Navigation exam. It turned out that a Prof had divulged some answers to his students, many of whom were football players.
The football players and others in the class were not automatically guilty and nor were the many (MANY) classmates who ended up getting the gouge in Bancroft Hall before the exam was administered. Gouge was and is not illegal, the prof may have stepped over the line but the mids who used it to study were not guilty of anything. However, highlighting, underlining or writing in their Navigation tables to speed their way through the already worked out problems was in fact an honor offense.
 
General Norman Schwartzkopf emphasized some key points about WP in his speech on May 1, 1991.
Amazingly, his viewpoint on West Point has never been changed and it still works as of today.
Here is why.

1. Competence and Character!
2. WP Cadets who are cynical about WP's Core Values won't be there when the country needs them
3. One of the most ethical persons he had ever met in his life was his WP classmate who believed WP's values, of course, including The Honor Code. "Believe it, Believe it because You must believe it!"
4. The 21st-century leaders from WP will be responsible for the many lives of sons and daughters of America.......Because their parents handed over their children to the 21st Century leaders by trusting them ultimately and without any conditions.
Can they still trust WP graduates and hand over their children when the country is in a tough situation?

I watched this video more than 50 times. I am not joking. I even downloaded an MP3 file to listen to on my commute.
I have been deeply touched by his Big Picture on WP and this great country. I hope that WP leaders can watch the message from General Schwartzkopf and make an optimum decision for WP.

I believe that all answers to this incident were already provided by General Schwarzkopf about 30 years ago. It's very clear.
I went to a private university where I had never seen any proctors at all my exams based on The Honor Code. No problems at all. I am wondering what The Honor Code of WP really means compared to the ones with the private institutions.

 
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OldRetSWO said:
Very true. I'm lucky enough to be that class with the most four stars and leaders on the yard and USNAAA to this day. We did not know it at the time but during our I day, another part of USNA was busy holding multiple honor boards for a cheating scandal for soon to be second classmen who had cheated on a Navigation exam. It turned out that a Prof had divulged some answers to his students, many of whom were football players.
The football players and others in the class were not automatically guilty and nor were the many (MANY) classmates who ended up getting the gouge in Bancroft Hall before the exam was administered. Gouge was and is not illegal, the prof may have stepped over the line but the mids who used it to study were not guilty of anything. However, highlighting, underlining or writing in their Navigation tables to speed their way through the already worked out problems was in fact an honor offense.
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One of the classes while I was at USNA had this exact "scandal". It was one of the professional develop courses for I think the class behind me. One prof gave a ton of gouge. Combine that with gouge from Prof A and Prof B and share that with roomies and then to companymates, team mates and your classmates and you have the whole exam. It wasn't cheating. Sharing gouge was never prohibited. It came out in the end everyone was cleared and that prof got his hand slapped.
 
F4EF15 said:
General Norman Schwartzkopf emphasized some key points about WP in his speech on May 1, 1991.
Amazingly, his viewpoint on West Point has never been changed and it still works as of today.
Here is why.

1. Competence and Character!
2. WP Cadets who are cynical about WP's Core Values won't be there when the country needs them
3. One of the most ethical persons he had ever met in his life was his WP classmate who believed WP's values, of course, including The Honor Code. "Believe it, Believe it because You must believe it!"
4. The 21st-century leaders from WP will be responsible for the many lives of sons and daughters of America.......Because their parents handed over their children to the 21st Century leaders by trusting them ultimately and without any conditions.
Can they still trust WP graduates and hand over their children when the country is in a tough situation?

I watched this video more than 50 times. I am not joking. I even downloaded an MP3 file to listen to on my commute.
I have been deeply touched by his Big Picture on WP and this great country. I hope that WP leaders can watch the message from General Schwartzkopf and make an optimum decision for WP.

I believe that all answers to this incident were already provided by General Schwarzkopf about 30 years ago. It's very clear.
I went to a private university where I had never seen any proctors at all my exams based on The Honor Code. No problems at all. I am wondering what The Honor Code of WP really means compared to the ones with the private institutions.

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Thank you for posting this video! TREMENDOUS
 
I haven't read every post in this thread so I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse. Take what I say with a grain of salt as most of it is based on rumor.

Whisperings among some cadets rumor that upwards of 90% of those involved in this honor situation are D1 athletes. I want to think there's no correlation, but only maybe 30% of the Corps falls under this category. A memorandum was put out recently that allowed D1 athletes that were under investigation for honor to continue to compete in athletic contests. One of those cadets, having admitted to cheating in the MA104 scandal, was the one to score a winning touchdown in a recent football game.

I personally think USMA should have no D1 sports--most of the money that it raises goes back into the D1 programs, while the AOG funds the rest. It is depressing to watch USMA brass favor athletes. No, they won't get away with it punishment-free like the articles make it seem. But they shouldn't represent the Academy in athletics. I try really hard to believe in the honor system and its merit, and live it to the best of my ability. Things like just make myself and my peers cynical about it.

But "football is king," amirite?

I don't know every detail about the scandal as I didn't take the course it happened in, but I'm sad that my class is going to be brandished with this from now on. There are still 1,000 more of us in the Class of 2023.
 
LurkingQuietly said:
Have you ever been golfing with someone that cheats? I mean, not the kind of cheating where you pick up your ball, and put it back down on a nice tuff of grass. I mean the shaving strokes cheating. Now that's a person you can't trust.
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Of course, they should be expelled and find another university. Their life will not collapse, perhaps it will be a great learning experience and somewhat expensive for the tax payers.

The service academies have an old saying, cooperate and graduate. Well it looks like at least 77 will pay some type of price.

I stopped drinking after a $2,600 DUI Fine and court costs.

Time for a little levity.

How is this for cheating in golf, called the Golf Dilima.

2 golfers tee off. One shot lands in the fairway, the other shot lands in the right rough. After a few minutes of searching, the one golfer plays his ball from the fairway.

2 minutes later his friend finds his ball and hits it. From the rough, his ball lands 3 feet from the cup.

His friend complements his buddy's good fortune from the rough. But thinks to himself, that can't possibly be his ball, I have his ball in my back pocket.
 
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No need to reinvent the wheel on this, so I'll just quote myself from 5.5 years ago.

parentalunit2 said:
Oh, my. Don’t let any old grads near this thread.

Lesser percentages graduated way back when because the academic and disciplinary standards were tougher. Now it’s retain, retain, retain. Today you may get three strikes and then you’re out. Back then, it took just one. Getting through the four years was a whole lot harder. It used to be that plebe year was truly torturous all year long up until recognition. Now I would say that it is merely uncomfortable. The place used to be all military, all the time. Now, in so very many ways, the comparisons to a civilian university are numerous. Whereas back in the day there were hardly any commonalities to be found. Somewhere there is a timeline of changes at West Point and what year they were instituted, I think AOG published it. I found it very interesting reading and will try to find it to post a link.

Just my observations as a student of the history of USMA and being associated with the joint firsthand for the past 30 years.
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prospective2019 said:
I haven't read every post in this thread so I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse. Take what I say with a grain of salt as most of it is based on rumor.

Whisperings among some cadets rumor that upwards of 90% of those involved in this honor situation are D1 athletes. I want to think there's no correlation, but only maybe 30% of the Corps falls under this category. A memorandum was put out recently that allowed D1 athletes that were under investigation for honor to continue to compete in athletic contests. One of those cadets, having admitted to cheating in the MA104 scandal, was the one to score a winning touchdown in a recent football game.

I personally think USMA should have no D1 sports--most of the money that it raises goes back into the D1 programs, while the AOG funds the rest. It is depressing to watch USMA brass favor athletes. No, they won't get away with it punishment-free like the articles make it seem. But they shouldn't represent the Academy in athletics. I try really hard to believe in the honor system and its merit, and live it to the best of my ability. Things like just make myself and my peers cynical about it.

But "football is king," amirite?

I don't know every detail about the scandal as I didn't take the course it happened in, but I'm sad that my class is going to be brandished with this from now on. There are still 1,000 more of us in the Class of 2023.
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First, we shall see the numbers. Got to love CNN.
Second, I will point out that the football team has been at West Point since July and won’t leave until 1 January. I didn’t see any Cadets volunteering to stay on with them in solidarity.
Finally, as the father of a D1 athlete (not football) I can’t tell you how wrong you are. It goes beyond physical fitness. There is a competitive drive and commitment involved in being a D1athlete that transcends the sport itself and carries over to life. And no, DII/III isn’t the same. There is a reason teams that move up take years to become competitive.
 
prospective2019 said:
I haven't read every post in this thread so I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse. Take what I say with a grain of salt as most of it is based on rumor.

Whisperings among some cadets rumor that upwards of 90% of those involved in this honor situation are D1 athletes. I want to think there's no correlation, but only maybe 30% of the Corps falls under this category. A memorandum was put out recently that allowed D1 athletes that were under investigation for honor to continue to compete in athletic contests. One of those cadets, having admitted to cheating in the MA104 scandal, was the one to score a winning touchdown in a recent football game.

I personally think USMA should have no D1 sports--most of the money that it raises goes back into the D1 programs, while the AOG funds the rest. It is depressing to watch USMA brass favor athletes. No, they won't get away with it punishment-free like the articles make it seem. But they shouldn't represent the Academy in athletics. I try really hard to believe in the honor system and its merit, and live it to the best of my ability. Things like just make myself and my peers cynical about it.

But "football is king," amirite?

I don't know every detail about the scandal as I didn't take the course it happened in, but I'm sad that my class is going to be brandished with this from now on. There are still 1,000 more of us in the Class of 2023.
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You are right.
 
prospective2019 said:
I haven't read every post in this thread so I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse. Take what I say with a grain of salt as most of it is based on rumor.

Whisperings among some cadets rumor that upwards of 90% of those involved in this honor situation are D1 athletes. I want to think there's no correlation, but only maybe 30% of the Corps falls under this category. A memorandum was put out recently that allowed D1 athletes that were under investigation for honor to continue to compete in athletic contests. One of those cadets, having admitted to cheating in the MA104 scandal, was the one to score a winning touchdown in a recent football game.

I personally think USMA should have no D1 sports--most of the money that it raises goes back into the D1 programs, while the AOG funds the rest. It is depressing to watch USMA brass favor athletes. No, they won't get away with it punishment-free like the articles make it seem. But they shouldn't represent the Academy in athletics. I try really hard to believe in the honor system and its merit, and live it to the best of my ability. Things like just make myself and my peers cynical about it.

But "football is king," amirite?

I don't know every detail about the scandal as I didn't take the course it happened in, but I'm sad that my class is going to be brandished with this from now on. There are still 1,000 more of us in the Class of 2023.
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Oh. Wow.
 
parentalunit2 said:
No need to reinvent the wheel on this, so I'll just quote myself from 5.5 years ago.
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Yes... and no.
As some Old Grads have pointed out there is more of an emphasis on some military aspects that directly affect combat readiness. One told me that he used his ruck maybe a handful of times during his four years. Now they are used on a regular basis.
Retention varies with the year and what the Army needs. Some years as cut backs loom classes are cut drastically. Some years, not so much.
Some silliness has stopped. While you complain about how easy Plebe year is now I can guarantee that classes from the 1950s complained about how easy it was for you. Every year is the last hard year.
As for similarities with civilian university, that’s a joke, right? I went to a civilian university and I can not think of any similarities. None. Not one.
Your complaints are the same tiresome ones I’ve heard for 30 years. Basic training was tougher. Airborne school was tougher. The only real Air Assault school is the one at (fill in the blank). Flight school was harder. I think I read the same one in a Latin class, some Roman legionnaire complaining about how the new recruits had it easy.
One of the things I saw when my DD went to basic training and I actually stepped back and observed what she did. In some ways mine was tougher- drill sergeants could get away with more. But when I objectively looked at her training there was a vast improvement on preparing her for war than when I went through.
 
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UHBlackhawk said:
First, we shall see the numbers. Got to love CNN.
Second, I will point out that the football team has been at West Point since July and won’t leave until 1 January. I didn’t see any Cadets volunteering to stay on with them in solidarity.
Finally, as the father of a D1 athlete (not football) I can’t tell you how wrong you are. It goes beyond physical fitness. There is a competitive drive and commitment involved in being a D1athlete that transcends the sport itself and carries over to life. And no, DII/III isn’t the same. There is a reason teams that move up take years to become competitive.
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I do not underestimate the value of athletics beyond physical fitness--I learned a lot from sports and intended to walk-on to one of the Academy's D1 teams before I decided I wanted to be able to involve myself in more unique things USMA offers. Most of the Corps Squad athletes I'm friends with put in a lot of work and reap little benefit. I respect their dedication. But they lose a lot of the development opportunities the Academy offers; that is something I quote from a buddy on the women's soccer team. As do the managers, video teams, and many more.

The football team works incredibly hard and I respect the players as individuals (except the ones who get away with SHARP and honor offenses). I hold no grudge against them. I dislike how the Academy prioritizes football as a whole, this scandal evidencing that. Yes, the football team has been at West Point since July, as with much of the Corps for various trainings. But how much military development does a football player get during a 7-day CBT cut short for practices? Why did they get to see their families, while a Plebe who has never been away from home and has been at the Academy for four months cannot? Why can they compete and wear an "ARMY" uniform while under investigation for honor? How am I supposed to explain this to my cadet subordinates, to teach them the values of West Point and the Army, when I myself am jaded by these contradictions?

Individual athletes are not the problem, and I by no means mean any disrespect to your son or daughter. I'd bet they went through full trainings and a legitimate cadet experience and I'm sure they learned many valuable lessons in D1 athletics that made them into a great officer, ones that I will have to learn on my own. But the mission of West Point is to develop leaders of character, and they cannot by any means subvert this mission to allow athletes to compete. This is my gripe; not with the individual athlete.
 
Personally, IMHO I think a lot of the problem rests in these times we live in. It seems like cheating is acceptable (if not caught), drinking and using drugs is acceptable (if not caught), and using influence or having influence matters the most! When an applicant seeks admission to ANY SA, they know the rules, they know the repercussion, and they make choices. A lot of their choices are learned at earlier stages in life watching others, or peers and the results thereof.
As for cheating on a "monitored" remote exam, please don't be blind, these young adults are adept at putting cameras at angles that disguise what is actually happening. They show a workspace but hide another laptop or tablet on a chair out of the camera that they can pull up answers to questions on (and they ALL know where those websites are) and can usually get away with not playing by the rules. Only the young adults that value honesty and integrity will refrain or not even consider being dishonest. And those are those the ones that we need leading our military, not the ones who simply don't want to put forth the effort to learn material. All the SA's offer help, additional instruction, and remedial studies for those honest enough to play by the rules and ask for help. I for one would not want to be led by someone who cheats to get by, and then is placed into a position where they can't cheat and it leads to disaster!
Bottom line is 77 out of 1200 is not a rejection of an Academy, but how leadership handles the situation may be cause for alarm! I don't know the answer, but if an academy is going to preach honesty and integrity then it should damn well show some. If nothing is done other than a "remedial ethics" class, then the problem is deeper than realized.
 
D1 athlete or not, the honor code extends to all involved. If it’s being brushed aside to cover for athletes then shame on the administration. All involved should be held to the same standard... cheating is cheating

I will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those who do. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
 
prospective2019 said:
I do not underestimate the value of athletics beyond physical fitness--I learned a lot from sports and intended to walk-on to one of the Academy's D1 teams before I decided I wanted to be able to involve myself in more unique things USMA offers. Most of the Corps Squad athletes I'm friends with put in a lot of work and reap little benefit. I respect their dedication. But they lose a lot of the development opportunities the Academy offers; that is something I quote from a buddy on the women's soccer team. As do the managers, video teams, and many more.

The football team works incredibly hard and I respect the players as individuals (except the ones who get away with SHARP and honor offenses). I hold no grudge against them. I dislike how the Academy prioritizes football as a whole, this scandal evidencing that. Yes, the football team has been at West Point since July, as with much of the Corps for various trainings. But how much military development does a football player get during a 7-day CBT cut short for practices? Why did they get to see their families, while a Plebe who has never been away from home and has been at the Academy for four months cannot? Why can they compete and wear an "ARMY" uniform while under investigation for honor? How am I supposed to explain this to my cadet subordinates, to teach them the values of West Point and the Army, when I myself am jaded by these contradictions?

Individual athletes are not the problem, and I by no means mean any disrespect to your son or daughter. I'd bet they went through full trainings and a legitimate cadet experience and I'm sure they learned many valuable lessons in D1 athletics that made them into a great officer, ones that I will have to learn on my own. But the mission of West Point is to develop leaders of character, and they cannot by any means subvert this mission to allow athletes to compete. This is my gripe; not with the individual athlete.
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Then I would say your friend has either not experienced enough yet to know the lessons she learned or she didn’t take those lessons to heart. In the words of Wellington, “The Battle of Waterloo was won on the fields of Eaton.” Ok, maybe he didn’t really say that, but it’s still valid.
I learned more about leadership and “followership” on the football and lacrosse field than I did in any ROTC leadership class. There is nothing like being on a field, freezing rain, playing with someone you might not really like, but working through the physical and mental pain to teach you leadership and teamwork. The agony of defeat teaches you lessons about resiliency that are difficult to learn in a training exercise.
As for the physical aspect, when my DD went to basic training the physical part was not difficult for her after being a D1 athlete. She smoked many of the men and was selected to be a SAW gunner in her unit because she could carry it and keep up.
But yes... there might be other dark aspects of college athletics that always need to be addressed. It’s one thing to get some privileges to make up for lost weekends and such, it’s another to think you are above the rules.
 
Sorry all

I‘ve about had it with the athletic stuff.
Spend a few years in combat making decisions regarding lives. I don’t care if you played football, commissioned thru ROTC, OCS or a SA. We talking about those that will lead our sons and daughters. There are many ways to learn about leadership. Regardless of the path there is things hat MUST be present.
LOYALTY
DUTY
RESPECT
SELFLESS SERVICE
HONESTY
INTEGRITY
PERSONAL COURAGE

The cheaters failed to display many of these and are not welcome on my team!
 
SF_DAD said:
Sorry all

I‘ve about had it with the athletic stuff.
Spend a few years in combat making decisions regarding lives. I don’t care if you played football, commissioned thru ROTC, OCS or a SA. We talking about those that will lead our sons and daughters. There are many ways to learn about leadership. Regardless of the path there is things hat MUST be present.
LOYALTY
DUTY
RESPECT
SELFLESS SERVICE
HONESTY
INTEGRITY
PERSONAL COURAGE

The cheaters failed to display many of these and are not welcome on my team!
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Who wrote that they were mutually exclusive?
 
Given the number of varsity athletes at any SA, it wouldn’t be surprising to see some involved in any major incident. The question will be whether a team or teams was/ were disproportionately involved. Or, whether athletes received lesser/disparate ”punishment“ solely because of that status. Hopefully not.
 
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