West Point Cheating Scandal

WQXDJX said:
For the people who vehemently expressed their view of honor code and zero tolerance, let me ask you this, did you ever lie or cheat in your life? If so, then shut up and let school leadership handle the situation. Your high moral standard sentiment is just a hypocrisy in the eyes of God. Cadets have higher standards of ethics, but they are human being too. What you did is just a classic example of Pharisees who wanted to stone the woman who committed adultery to death. (John 8)
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It’s more than lying and cheating. It’s also stealing. From these parents kids. It’s stealing order of merit. It’s moving ahead in line for the jobs that will be assigned (and potently lost by these parents kids) based in part on GPA. It’s allowing athletes to continue to play, seemingly according to published statements from leaders/decision makers, that affect outcomes of games potentially. Either directly or indirectly.

It’s bigger than telling a lie. Affects more than the person who cheated. And parents have a stake in this as it affects their children. So that’s part of the repercussions of their decision to cheat/lie/steal.

No one is perfect. Certainly (except @Devil Doc apparantly 😂), but actions have consequences. And the offender doesn’t get to choose or control the outcome, or the story, or public opinion. Just look at the current political climate. Social media doesn’t allow anything to happen in a vacuum. That’s reality.

People here, especially, justifiably have
opinions. Alumni, parents, etc. Bc it does matter and it does affect them. Directly or indirectly.
 
WQXDJX said:
For the people who vehemently expressed their view of honor code and zero tolerance, let me ask you this, did you ever lie or cheat in your life? If so, then shut up and let school leadership handle the situation. Your high moral standard sentiment is just a hypocrisy in the eyes of God. Cadets have higher standards of ethics, but they are human being too. What you did is just a classic example of Pharisees who wanted to stone the woman who committed adultery to death. (John 8)
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🤢🤮 or 🤣. Not sure if this post makes me sick or laugh.
 
WQXDJX said:
For the people who vehemently expressed their view of honor code and zero tolerance, let me ask you this, did you ever lie or cheat in your life? If so, then shut up and let school leadership handle the situation. Your high moral standard sentiment is just a hypocrisy in the eyes of God. Cadets have higher standards of ethics, but they are human being too. What you did is just a classic example of Pharisees who wanted to stone the woman who committed adultery to death. (John 8)
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So I suppose since I'm a VMI grad where there is only one punishment (ie drummed out) for lying, cheating, and stealing then would it be ok in your eyes for me to say that those cadets should have been kicked out? I walked the walk, so I get to talk the talk?

Obviously, I'm being rhetorical with my question. I am a VMI grad, but I'm not going to say if I think those cadets should have been dismissed or not. West Point is different. I didn't walk in West Point boots so to speak. I don't have the details of the cases, nor the true history of when policies went into effect. I also don't know the pressures have or directives the leadership got, so I can't provide an educated opinion.

My DD is a current yuk. I just asked her what she thinks.
 
Army245bday said:
So I suppose since I'm a VMI grad where there is only one punishment (ie drummed out) for lying, cheating, and stealing then would it be ok in your eyes for me to say that those cadets should have been kicked out? I walked the walk, so I get to talk the talk?

Obviously, I'm being rhetorical with my question. I am a VMI grad, but I'm not going to say if I think those cadets should have been dismissed or not. West Point is different. I didn't walk in West Point boots so to speak. I don't have the details of the cases, nor the true history of when policies went into effect. I also don't know the pressures have or directives the leadership got, so I can't provide an educated opinion.

My DD is a current yuk. I just asked her what she thinks.
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Can you give your DD's response?
 
@justdoit19 has the right point. And personally, those that did cheat, knew better, knew there would be consequences, and still did it. What does that tell us about their character? IMHO, again, these students don't need "personal counseling" but rather consequences that matter, if for no other reason than to solidify the Honor Code in the other students, and the upholding of Honesty, Integrity, and Leadership. In my life experience, someone who lies or steals and basically gets away with it, tends to try it again because it worked. I personally don't believe we want cheaters, thieves, or liars leading our military. And to say because they were "plebes" we should excuse them is bull____ IMHO, ALL these young men and women knew going into USMA what was required and demanded and they chose to ignore the basic premise of what is expected of a leader.
 
This is a reflection on our society-think of how much cheating, of all sorts, happens in our society. If we did a Root Cause Analysis, we would likely find failures in the "System" that allowed these individuals to think that it's ok to cheat. In this case the "system" include the Academy, Cadets, families, etc. At any rate, it's sad.
 
Impulsive said:
In my life experience, someone who lies or steals and basically gets away with it, tends to try it again because it worked.
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Exactly...most people who get caught doing something serious like this, whether it's cheating on a test, drink driving, cheating on a spouse, or other demonstrations of a serious character flaw don't usually get caught the first time. It's a behavior that has been learned through years of prior wrongdoing without the certainty of punishment.
Wouldn't surprise me if these cadets have cheated before whether in HS, or even in other ways during their previous 10 months at USMA. They just got caught this time due to their own stupidity. It is definitely a reflection of our society, their families, and many other factors. Ultimately though, the responsibility to take the "harder right" falls on the individual and they chose the "easier wrong".
I personally don't want them getting the same benefits, wearing the same uniform, and serving in the same Army as my son. I don't care about other factors like athletic victories or cultural issues (and certainly not length of time at the Academy) - you're either a cheater or your not.
 
Impulsive said:
In my life experience, someone who lies or steals and basically gets away with it, tends to try it again because it worked.
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I hate to quote myself from page one.
cb7893 said:
My sons are not choirboys, nor was I. I remember DS #1, who was not one of the “cool” kids in elementary school, told me that a couple of the “cool” kids were stealing candy at the neighborhood grocery store. He had no frame of reference. I told him that the smarter the kid, the more likely he/she will get away with it. Each time they steal they will be more confident they’ll get away with It. Each close call will make them even “smarter”. The longer they get away with it the more severe the consequences. As they got older it will become evident that the consequences extended to friends, family members, coworkers, spouses and so on.
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A1Janitor said:
USNA has one going on too. This isn’t about the institution.
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When I say "may", I mean IF the cadets who violated code do not receive proper penalties, it will trigger dislike. If USMA treats this incident properly I will still like USMA.
 
justdoit19 said:
It’s more than lying and cheating. It’s also stealing. From these parents kids. It’s stealing order of merit. It’s moving ahead in line for the jobs that will be assigned (and potently lost by these parents kids) based in part on GPA. It’s allowing athletes to continue to play, seemingly according to published statements from leaders/decision makers, that affect outcomes of games potentially. Either directly or indirectly.

It’s bigger than telling a lie. Affects more than the person who cheated. And parents have a stake in this as it affects their children. So that’s part of the repercussions of their decision to cheat/lie/steal.

No one is perfect. Certainly (except @Devil Doc apparantly 😂), but actions have consequences. And the offender doesn’t get to choose or control the outcome, or the story, or public opinion. Just look at the current political climate. Social media doesn’t allow anything to happen in a vacuum. That’s reality.

People here, especially, justifiably have
opinions. Alumni, parents, etc. Bc it does matter and it does affect them. Directly or indirectly.
Click to expand...
When a plebe crosses the line on R day and takes the oath, that person has been fully informed of the expectations and conditions of the honor code. The code is what separates USMA, USNA, USAFA from all other institutions, and it is not ambiguous. The point is not whether a person has lied or cheated in the past, it is rather that those who are chosen to attend make a decision to adhere to the code as a measure of their integrity. When you go to Ranger school, or any other school, if you cheat you are a NO GO, no options, no remediation. There are thousands of highly qualified, dedicated men and women of the highest character out there who do not get the invitation to attend. This is not a theological issue, it is the heart of the system and the code must never yield or be diluted.
 
fnpony said:
IMO, all of them shall be expelled after confirmation of the violation, to gain back people's trust.
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Easier said as an outsider than as someone who has gone through the 4yr program. As a SA cadet/mid you will see small stuff often. One's definition of "small" will vary from person to person and the threshold of which you would turn someone in for a violation will shift over time. Each of us has things that we care about and there is a line should others cross, you would turn them in. It is more grey than black and white. Cheating on an exam is over the line for me personally. My roommate telling me he dusted our room before an inspection, when in fact he didn't, doesn't seem to rise to the same level for me. However, as said before, when a person gets away with small things it often leads to bigger things.

Applicants often wonder what they can do to get INTO the Academy. As a SA cadet/mid, you wonder about what can get you kicked OUT of the Academy. Most of us feel just a little rebellious getting close to that line, but most are smart enough to respect the line.
 
liamking said:
great thought. I really hate when an entire kids life is ruined by one wrong decision. This isn’t the same as some enlisted kid. Getting discharged as a 18 yo from the navy is not a life ending event. honestly being expelled from WP is basically game-over for kids that were soon-to-be world leaders. This cheating will follow these kids for the rest of their time at WP as well as long long after. And all it took was one wrong decision. I don’t condone cheating in any way, but I’m glad that these cadets have the ability to salvage their future, change some things, and hopefully get back on track.
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They knew what they were doing before they made that mistake. That’s why they are taught in their Cadet Prayer “THE HARDER RIGHT OVER THE EASIER WRONG!”. it’s not easy being a leader & trying to make the right decisions but not lying & cheating well 😳🤷‍♀️.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
I heard about the letter sent out to Cadets but have not yet read it. Just to clarify. Cadets are NOT suspended from representing the academy once accused of an honor violation but upon final adjudication. The process does take time and won’t be completed until January, probably due to the number of Cadets involved. We shall see if sports did indeed have an impact on this timing. If so I’m sure there will be “fallout”. But after some of the initial news reports I’ve seen over the last few years that have caused controversies and then been “walked back” I try to hold off on judgement until all the facts come out.
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Please re-clarify your statement here: the letter that was sent out was not sent to all “Cadets”. It was sent to certain “Cadets”, and then obviously that letter made its way around.
 
goalsetter2025 said:
If anyone's curious about the "site" that someone talked about earlier, let me know and I'll pm you if you already don't know.

Also, just want to point out that as a TA at an Ivy league school, I will say that this "site" that the students use to get answers is heavily monitored by us TA's. In fact, my professor pays for the subscription fee for all TA's just so that we can post INCORRECT and/or utterly stupid answers on that site. That way, we catch cheaters that use that site.

Just this past semester, I found a test question on that site for the Linear Algebra class I was TA'ing for. I uploaded a copy of my thermodynamics homework, and to my surprise, 3 students had thermodynamics as their answer to an Algebra test. All 3 students (who were interested in pursuing banking and med school post-grad) had their careers ruined. Cheating is an automatic "0" on transcript at my school, which will kill GPA's and any chance of a banking, medical school, consulting, etc. career.
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While I don't condone cheating, you seem way to pleased with ruining the aspirations of a young person.
 
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