I hope this doesn’t come across as a stupid question but in the context of listing NROTC schools, what criteria could one use to determine what is are “reach” schools and “safe” schools? The profiles of the schools aren’t that much help. DS received his second ACT scores and is re-evaluating where to apply.
What constitutes a “reach” school?
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A reach school is a school that one might have some level of difficulty being accepted to. If you don't fall within the middle 50% of stats I would say it's a reach school. A safe school is one where you're confident of being accepted. It's not just stats. One is probably more likely to be accepted into an in-state public than an out-of-state school because of the way many states work. Some states insist on a large percentage of the students being in-state.
You really do need to key off the student profiles of the schools as a base, and then look at more subjective criteria.
The College Board search site may be able to help in your college search. https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-search
You really do need to key off the student profiles of the schools as a base, and then look at more subjective criteria.
The College Board search site may be able to help in your college search. https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-search
jaglvr
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if you child does so so, then an Ivy or a school with say 30% acceptance is a reach. as kinnem stated, state schools are usually the satey schools (unless you are in CA Iunderstand....)
you may also hear “stretch” which is harder than safety but maybe a better shot than reach
you may also hear “stretch” which is harder than safety but maybe a better shot than reach
Ok - makes sense. State schools are the safety? Out of state, less so? That helps. DS just got a 35 ACT (36 M & S) - grades & class rank are really good, too but didn’t know if they would stack up with standardized tests. We’re wondering if he should be thinking bigger (USNA is still his hope). Ivy is obviously a reach and not something we are considering.
dadof2018grad
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Those are great ACT scores!! If your DS GPA, extracurriculars, and fitness test scores are also that good, he would have a great chance at both IVY's and USNA. I would put applications in at both by Labor Day. Good luck!
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I don't know why you think Ivy is a reach with those scores. Of course there is more to an application than an ACT/SAT score. The real point about safety schools is to make sure you apply to at least one. Two would be better. One might then apply to one or more stretch or reach schools. You just need to make sure you have "backups" whether applying to a ROTC program or not.
Walman888
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Senior Military Colleges are all within your scope.
unkown1961
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A "reach" school will differ with each kid. For some it might be MIT with 6% acceptance rate but to whom getting into U of VA with a 30% acceptance rate seems pretty assured. For others, UVA might be the reach school. Too, there are different acceptance rates among the Ivies. And in California, the reach might be Cal or UCLA, and UCSB might be the assured choice.
Your son's ACT scores are excellent and would lend themselves to the SMHYP schools (Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Princeton). Keep in mind that the acceptance is more than great test scores and a 4.0+ GPA. The applicant needs strong activities (Senate, Boys/Girls Club, debate, sports, etc.), great essays (what works for a state college is different than what a selective school looks for, and well-written letters of recommendation suited for selective schools.
In the end, acceptance to the reach school is a reach for almost all, so go ahead and apply to a few to increase the chances of acceptance (my kids applied to about 12 schools each and both received NROTC and AFROTC scholarships). With ACT scores like his, and his GPA, he's in the mix.
If it helps, attached are the acceptance rates for various selective schools from last year. Look at the admit rates for early application - it could be worthwhile to apply early admission to a couple of schools (here's a link to an article about early application options: https://professionals.collegeboard.org/guidance/applications/early).
Good luck! My daughter got into her reach school (MIT) and a couple of other selective reaches with early applications, but my son missed his selective reach school (Yale) but made it into a very good school as a second choice. Both had their state university as their safety school.
Your son's ACT scores are excellent and would lend themselves to the SMHYP schools (Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Princeton). Keep in mind that the acceptance is more than great test scores and a 4.0+ GPA. The applicant needs strong activities (Senate, Boys/Girls Club, debate, sports, etc.), great essays (what works for a state college is different than what a selective school looks for, and well-written letters of recommendation suited for selective schools.
In the end, acceptance to the reach school is a reach for almost all, so go ahead and apply to a few to increase the chances of acceptance (my kids applied to about 12 schools each and both received NROTC and AFROTC scholarships). With ACT scores like his, and his GPA, he's in the mix.
If it helps, attached are the acceptance rates for various selective schools from last year. Look at the admit rates for early application - it could be worthwhile to apply early admission to a couple of schools (here's a link to an article about early application options: https://professionals.collegeboard.org/guidance/applications/early).
Good luck! My daughter got into her reach school (MIT) and a couple of other selective reaches with early applications, but my son missed his selective reach school (Yale) but made it into a very good school as a second choice. Both had their state university as their safety school.
Reach = <40% chance of acceptance
Match = 40-85% chance of acceptance
Safety = >85% chance of acceptance
"Ivy League plus" (ivies plus U Chicago, Stanford, MIT, Duke) schools are a Reach for everyone except high-achieving under-represented minorities and super-wealthy grads of the top 50 prep schools in the country.
In both cases - extreme wealth and URM [under-represented minority] status - the "unhooked" middle- or upper middle-class applicant is at a major disadvantage equal to about 150-180 points on the SAT. In other words, if you need financial aid AND cannot claim URM lineage, then your scores need to be higher than the 75th percentile scores to even bother applying. Even then, your chances are about 1/5th the chances of a wealthy or URM applicant of equal academic merit.
For high achievers drawn from those two privileged groups, the ivy-plus schools are Safeties(>85% likelihood of admission). For everyone else - even the highest of high achievers - they are a Reach.
The "public ivy" flagship state schools Michigan, California (Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD), and Virginia (perhaps also North Carolina) have become Reach schools for everyone except high-achieving under-represented minorities and super-wealthy "full-freight" out-of-state and international applicants.
Short answer: lower your expectations. Apply broadly.
Match = 40-85% chance of acceptance
Safety = >85% chance of acceptance
"Ivy League plus" (ivies plus U Chicago, Stanford, MIT, Duke) schools are a Reach for everyone except high-achieving under-represented minorities and super-wealthy grads of the top 50 prep schools in the country.
In both cases - extreme wealth and URM [under-represented minority] status - the "unhooked" middle- or upper middle-class applicant is at a major disadvantage equal to about 150-180 points on the SAT. In other words, if you need financial aid AND cannot claim URM lineage, then your scores need to be higher than the 75th percentile scores to even bother applying. Even then, your chances are about 1/5th the chances of a wealthy or URM applicant of equal academic merit.
For high achievers drawn from those two privileged groups, the ivy-plus schools are Safeties(>85% likelihood of admission). For everyone else - even the highest of high achievers - they are a Reach.
The "public ivy" flagship state schools Michigan, California (Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD), and Virginia (perhaps also North Carolina) have become Reach schools for everyone except high-achieving under-represented minorities and super-wealthy "full-freight" out-of-state and international applicants.
Short answer: lower your expectations. Apply broadly.
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thinaud
What you have written is what we have been thinking. We’re typical midwestern, middle class folk with no wealth or under-represented hook. DS has athletics, Eagle Scout, works, etc. but hasn’t done anything like won a national science fair, started a non-profit, etc., etc., Ivy schools might as well be on Mars, according to our mindsets. Maybe once every couple of years, someone from DS’s high school goes to a northeastern school (maybe even Cornell but never Harvard, Yale, or Princeton). My wife is from DC and she tells me that many people on the east coast think about the Ivies as a bit more accessible than people in flyover land. Northwestern, Michigan and maybe University of Chicago are a bit more common as “reach” schools. Notre Dame is probably the big attraction for high-achieving students. I’ve heard great things about Notre Dame’s NROTC.
We get all kinds of mailings from all the Ivies etc. but we’ve read that they cast a wide net to encourage more applications so they can increase their selectivity stats. Maybe I’m too cynical. DS recycles all of them.
We want DS to expand his reach (provided he can land a ROTC scholarship). He’s Engineering focused all the way. Purdue has been reach in his mind so far. Purdue is a great school but it would be desirable to go to a school with great engineering and great non-STEM focus, as well (but also a good NROTC or AFROTC program as he absolutely wants to be an officer). Our state university is a fine safety & my alma mater, Michigan Tech, is a “safe” but it doesn’t have NROTC and it lacks both diversity and less than 7 months of winter (and is 60 miles from the nearest stoplight).
What would others think are good “stretch” and “reach” schools that are not overly handicapping wealth and non-representativeness? (And preferably have NROTC)? We get all kinds of opinions from folks with no idea about ROTC so having opinions from this forum to explore further would be most welcomed.
What you have written is what we have been thinking. We’re typical midwestern, middle class folk with no wealth or under-represented hook. DS has athletics, Eagle Scout, works, etc. but hasn’t done anything like won a national science fair, started a non-profit, etc., etc., Ivy schools might as well be on Mars, according to our mindsets. Maybe once every couple of years, someone from DS’s high school goes to a northeastern school (maybe even Cornell but never Harvard, Yale, or Princeton). My wife is from DC and she tells me that many people on the east coast think about the Ivies as a bit more accessible than people in flyover land. Northwestern, Michigan and maybe University of Chicago are a bit more common as “reach” schools. Notre Dame is probably the big attraction for high-achieving students. I’ve heard great things about Notre Dame’s NROTC.
We get all kinds of mailings from all the Ivies etc. but we’ve read that they cast a wide net to encourage more applications so they can increase their selectivity stats. Maybe I’m too cynical. DS recycles all of them.
We want DS to expand his reach (provided he can land a ROTC scholarship). He’s Engineering focused all the way. Purdue has been reach in his mind so far. Purdue is a great school but it would be desirable to go to a school with great engineering and great non-STEM focus, as well (but also a good NROTC or AFROTC program as he absolutely wants to be an officer). Our state university is a fine safety & my alma mater, Michigan Tech, is a “safe” but it doesn’t have NROTC and it lacks both diversity and less than 7 months of winter (and is 60 miles from the nearest stoplight).
What would others think are good “stretch” and “reach” schools that are not overly handicapping wealth and non-representativeness? (And preferably have NROTC)? We get all kinds of opinions from folks with no idea about ROTC so having opinions from this forum to explore further would be most welcomed.
We are from an east coast state, but I don't think of my DS as a rockstar. He certainly didn't start a non-profit. He's not even a varsity athlete, but he is a very good student with respectable--not great scores, and he has an NROTC scholarship and acceptance at Yale. You shouldn't just recycle the info. It never hurts to try, and you can't know what the admissions counselor that reads your application may find interesting. It is all quite subjective. My DS was accepted to Yale, but rejected from Northwestern. Go figure? We are not in any position to pay for private or out-of-state without serious scholarship help. He also has an AFROTC scholarship offer because some of his choices only had AFROTC, not NROTC. Always good to cover your bases.
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Well, keep in mind some schools (at least) strive to attain a certain amount of diversity. Some are actively pursuing out of state students to improve the schools profile. I wouldn't rule out any school your DS is interested in because you live in flyover land. Also, IMHO, if he wants to participate in NROTC, with or without a scholarship, there is no point to applying to colleges without NROTC. Just one man's two cents.
One school I might recommend you look at is University of South Carolina. They like to recruit out of state students and offer the Woodrow scholarship which is only available to out of state students. We live in NC, and DS did not receive an NROTC 4 year scholarship. South Carolina was his first choice. He received the Woodrow scholarship while only being a solid B student in high school. It defrayed the costs to where it was just a couple thousand more to attend there than it would to attend the big state colleges in NC. I made him a deal that if he borrowed the difference, he could attend there. I didn't really need him to make up the difference, but it was my way of getting him to have skin in the game. He won a side-load (in college) NROTC scholarship in the middle of his sophomore year. They have an excellent NROTC unit. We all loved the University.
I've no doubt there are plenty more such schools out there. This is a good place to ask as I'm sure many will have input. Nevertheless, you will need to do some online research to make sure you don't miss that hidden gem.
One school I might recommend you look at is University of South Carolina. They like to recruit out of state students and offer the Woodrow scholarship which is only available to out of state students. We live in NC, and DS did not receive an NROTC 4 year scholarship. South Carolina was his first choice. He received the Woodrow scholarship while only being a solid B student in high school. It defrayed the costs to where it was just a couple thousand more to attend there than it would to attend the big state colleges in NC. I made him a deal that if he borrowed the difference, he could attend there. I didn't really need him to make up the difference, but it was my way of getting him to have skin in the game. He won a side-load (in college) NROTC scholarship in the middle of his sophomore year. They have an excellent NROTC unit. We all loved the University.
I've no doubt there are plenty more such schools out there. This is a good place to ask as I'm sure many will have input. Nevertheless, you will need to do some online research to make sure you don't miss that hidden gem.
DD,
Look at the numbers for the folks on this board that are getting into elites. (HYPSM) Your son is more than competitive.
Even more so for the stretch schools.
I disagree with Thibaud on a number of issues.
Read the stories in this board, look at the outcomes. Jeez, there are people on the first page talking about Yale, Princeton, MIT, Norte Dame.
Your son is competitive for any school.
OS
Look at the numbers for the folks on this board that are getting into elites. (HYPSM) Your son is more than competitive.
Even more so for the stretch schools.
I disagree with Thibaud on a number of issues.
Read the stories in this board, look at the outcomes. Jeez, there are people on the first page talking about Yale, Princeton, MIT, Norte Dame.
Your son is competitive for any school.
OS
unkown1961
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I tend to disagree with the thought that the SMHYP schools, the other Ivies, Cal, Swarthmore, Williams, Duke, etc. are far out of reach for white, middle-class kids because I've known too many who get on to these schools, including my daughter. And my son got waitlisted at two of them but his GPA was the reason for the waitlist. These top schools want a borad group of students and will work to achieve that (although state schools lean toward in-state residents). I think too many people see their kid with perfect test scores and GPA but didn't get accepted, and then blame other factors: as opposed to considering that maybe the essays weren't selective school quality (an essay that gets you into the good state school isn't necessarily going to cut it with an Ivy) or that the Letters of Rec weren't up to Ivy standards (e.g., they rank the student in quantifiable terms against other students, the comments show a knowledge of the student's interest and resume, etc.). Plus, these kids need a strong backstory (and military kids can create a great story about resiliency and adaptability).
There are too many subjective factors that get a kid into one of the very selective schools to say that a middle-class white kid has no chance.
As respects geographic location, I've talked to a couple of former Ivy admission committee members who told me that a qualified applicant from most fly over states have a better chance than a kid form LA, San Francisco, DC, etc. because there are fewer applicants from these states. As told to me, the schools do want a broad representation of students in their student body.
Having said that, I do agree that a very wealthy kid who's parents are big time donors does have a leg up. Also, being a well qualified applicant who grew up in adverse socio-economic conditions also does have a leg up (deservedly so given the terrible funding on urban schools).
As mentioned above, apply broadly and hope for the best. These schools are a long shot for almost everyone.
unkown1961
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Agreed.
If anyone is interested, here are a couple of links where you can look at the socio-economic diversity of universities by plugging in school names:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...rom-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/massachusetts-institute-of-technology
It's kind of interesting.
I agree. Both 'reach' and 'safety' are largely subjective terms used in the context of college applications. 'Reach' is generally considered a college where your son/daughter has a lower chance of acceptance (based on whatever criteria you are considering), while 'safety' is thought of as more of a fallback choice. Most suggest a mix of reach/safety schools when applying since you never know how the college application process will go.
Regardless of one's h.s. resume, a 'reach' school would also one where far more apply than get accepted.
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Naviance makes it a bit easier to determine what is a reach school if it is available at your high school. The database has a record of every college application from your high school with acceptance, rejection, and wait list matched against GPS and test scores. The data is presented in several formats including graphical, which makes it easy to interpret.
One factor to consider in any estimation whether from Naviance or school profiles is the impact athletic/minority scores in the data. The benefit of Naviance is that you can readily identify outliers such as the 25 ACT that got into an Ivy (likely athletic recruit).
Also of interest are the extremely high test score and GPA applications that get rejected - possibly because admissions viewed them as overqualified and were were only applying as a safe school. Also interesting to see which colleges "like" your high school and which don't.
One factor to consider in any estimation whether from Naviance or school profiles is the impact athletic/minority scores in the data. The benefit of Naviance is that you can readily identify outliers such as the 25 ACT that got into an Ivy (likely athletic recruit).
Also of interest are the extremely high test score and GPA applications that get rejected - possibly because admissions viewed them as overqualified and were were only applying as a safe school. Also interesting to see which colleges "like" your high school and which don't.