What criteria is used for promotions within a respective class? Does it begin at PS?
- Thread starter pnwpandas
- Start date
-
- Tags
- merit plebe summer promotions rank
Usnavy2019
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2013
- Messages
- 916
In the truest rank sense, no 4/C will outrank another 4/C, no 3/C will outrank another 3/C, no 2/C will outrank another 2/C, and no 1/C will outrank another 1/C. However, there is some positional authority. The chance to get those positions of authority start as a 2/C and 2/C positions are limited. I was a First Sergeant in my company for example, so I set and enforced the attendance policy. So technically, I got to make a policy for my entire company and enforce it. However, that didn't make me outrank my fellow 2/C. I couldn't and didn't go around pulling rank on people. If there was an issue that involved my policy, people knew I was acting solely in my position.
You see tons of separation as 1/C. Almost everyone has a billet (position) and there are four levels of staff: Brigade (student body), Regiment (half of the student body), Battalion (1/6 of the Student body), and Company (1/30 of a student body). Companies have smaller divisions like Platoon, Squad and Fire Team, but that is a bit beyond the scope rn.
The highest job you can get is Brigade Commander. They technically are a MIDN CAPT and wear 6 stripes. You set policy for the entire Brigade and you are technically the top MIDN. Again, if you walk around like you're better than a 1/C company Platoon Commander, stand by. Servant leadership is all about being approachable and treating your subordinates, peers, and superiors like the people that they are.
Now to your question on how they decide who gets what: It is all over the place. Sometimes, your buddy got selected for Batt CDR and he/she hooks you up with a staff position. Sometimes, the first person who replies to the email gets the job. Sometimes, you interview. For the big positions like Batt/Reg/Brigade SMAJ, Training Sgt, Brigade CDR, Reg CDR, Batt CDR, etc, there are multiple levels of interview you will get interviewed by Company Officers, Battalion Officers, etc. The Commandant and Deputy Commandant have a lot of visibility/sway in the process as well (I never went through the Striper Board... which is what those high level interviews are called, so I don't know if you actually interview with the Dant/Dep Dant). The best way to put yourself in the running is sustained superior performance. That means you get great grades, are pretty physically fit, get high aptitude grades, and don't have any conduct issues. Some things carry over from Plebe Summer like your fitness scores, but the Board looks at your performance during the Ac Year a lot more.
Plebe Summer is its own phase of your Naval Academy career and it is not the end all be all. For example, I was not good during plebe summer. I knew rates and had pretty decent fitness, but I was super slow, disorganized, and lacked some attention to detail. Not a recipe for success. However, once the Ac Year hit, I did well and continued to do well. Everyone else is all over the board. Some do the opposite of what I did, some did well during PS and did well in the Ac Year, and some didn't do so hot in PS and continued not doing so hot.
I apologize for the novel, but the Academy is so unique and nuanced and I applaud you for "stepping into the Arena" for seeking answers. Just remember that no matter what you do at the Academy, the Fleet is a whole new ballgame. Nobody cares if you were the Brigade CDR, Valedictorian or the Anchorman. Everyone gets a BS degree, a commission, and is called Ensign or Lieutenant after spending the morning in Navy-Marine Corps Memorial Stadium (or T-Court for us '20 cats).
People will respect your rank, but lead in a way where others want to follow you. If you have to tell people to follow you, go back to the drawing board.
Best of luck!
You see tons of separation as 1/C. Almost everyone has a billet (position) and there are four levels of staff: Brigade (student body), Regiment (half of the student body), Battalion (1/6 of the Student body), and Company (1/30 of a student body). Companies have smaller divisions like Platoon, Squad and Fire Team, but that is a bit beyond the scope rn.
The highest job you can get is Brigade Commander. They technically are a MIDN CAPT and wear 6 stripes. You set policy for the entire Brigade and you are technically the top MIDN. Again, if you walk around like you're better than a 1/C company Platoon Commander, stand by. Servant leadership is all about being approachable and treating your subordinates, peers, and superiors like the people that they are.
Now to your question on how they decide who gets what: It is all over the place. Sometimes, your buddy got selected for Batt CDR and he/she hooks you up with a staff position. Sometimes, the first person who replies to the email gets the job. Sometimes, you interview. For the big positions like Batt/Reg/Brigade SMAJ, Training Sgt, Brigade CDR, Reg CDR, Batt CDR, etc, there are multiple levels of interview you will get interviewed by Company Officers, Battalion Officers, etc. The Commandant and Deputy Commandant have a lot of visibility/sway in the process as well (I never went through the Striper Board... which is what those high level interviews are called, so I don't know if you actually interview with the Dant/Dep Dant). The best way to put yourself in the running is sustained superior performance. That means you get great grades, are pretty physically fit, get high aptitude grades, and don't have any conduct issues. Some things carry over from Plebe Summer like your fitness scores, but the Board looks at your performance during the Ac Year a lot more.
Plebe Summer is its own phase of your Naval Academy career and it is not the end all be all. For example, I was not good during plebe summer. I knew rates and had pretty decent fitness, but I was super slow, disorganized, and lacked some attention to detail. Not a recipe for success. However, once the Ac Year hit, I did well and continued to do well. Everyone else is all over the board. Some do the opposite of what I did, some did well during PS and did well in the Ac Year, and some didn't do so hot in PS and continued not doing so hot.
I apologize for the novel, but the Academy is so unique and nuanced and I applaud you for "stepping into the Arena" for seeking answers. Just remember that no matter what you do at the Academy, the Fleet is a whole new ballgame. Nobody cares if you were the Brigade CDR, Valedictorian or the Anchorman. Everyone gets a BS degree, a commission, and is called Ensign or Lieutenant after spending the morning in Navy-Marine Corps Memorial Stadium (or T-Court for us '20 cats).
People will respect your rank, but lead in a way where others want to follow you. If you have to tell people to follow you, go back to the drawing board.
Best of luck!
pnwpandas
Member
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2020
- Messages
- 30
@Usnavy2019, thank you for the detailed explanation. Positional authority (or opportunities for responsibility/leadership) was what I was aiming at. BTW, I'm just a parent who's trying to understand the inner workings as a non-military person. So, thank you! It was what I was looking for.
- Joined
- May 22, 2018
- Messages
- 5,754
Building on the terrific “novel” by @Usnavy2019 (their words), understand that ranks are fluid. You can get promoted or demoted from one semester to another, depending on your billet.
For example, last semester DD held a brigade billet with a couple stripes. This summer her billet gives her more stripes. Next semester, she’ll hold a company billet with fewer stripes. And if she doesn’t get a billet the semester after that, she’ll have zero stripes. Up, down, and so forth.
A bit odd, but I like it. Gives plebes a great perspective on leadership by seeing it from different angles. As DD has learned, it’s incredibly easy to complain about leadership, incredibly hard to practice it when you’re actually in the position. And that’s the point!
Usnavy2019
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2013
- Messages
- 916
You got it! Even more applause to you for attempting to understand how stuff works! I tend to default to an appointee/candidate as the author. My apologies. Something I need to work on: writing answers that can speak to everyone! Gives me something to strive for in future posts.
@MidCakePa provides a fantastic point as well with jobs being so fluid at school. The vast majority last a semester and some last a year. It mirrors the Fleet in the sense that once you get comfortable and confident in your role, you get shipped off to something new!
pnwpandas
Member
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2020
- Messages
- 30
Reminds me of police academy days: one week you're leading, the next you're fired. Makes for good evaluation/feedback of the whole class when placed in those roles/assignments regarding leadership ability and style as well as aids in cross-training and solid overview/big picture understanding of how everything manages to function.
Outstanding reply!
Secretary of the Navy spoke at USAFA while I was there. A cadet who thought himself important asked the question, ‘what advice do you have for those of us in leadership positions.’
The speaker replied, ‘The best advice I can offer is to remind you that next semester you won’t be.’
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2007
- Messages
- 2,475
While slightly off topic, for Navy personnel (don’t know how USMC does things), your final order of merit will determine your initial “seniority” (lineal number) as a commissioned officer. In some instances this could make a difference on who might be looked at for promotion in a year and who might be looked at the following year.
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2017
- Messages
- 6,911
If anything you did while at USNA (including being the valedictorian of your class) mattered in the least for promotions once you got into the Fleet, I would be shocked. As far as the USMC is concerned, the step from O-1 to O-2 requires only a certain amount of time and a strong pulse.
There are 2/C stripers?
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2017
- Messages
- 6,911
When I first started driving onto the yard, I thought the parking spaces marked "F/S" stood for "Firstie/Striper" and said to myself - hey that's cool - special dispensation for when you get to be a senior. My son burst my bubble and said in a thoroughly eye-rolling sort of way, "Dad, that's for Faculty / Staff".
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2008
- Messages
- 21,920
The lineal number comes into play when the upper and lower zone limits are set for annual promotion boards and a few other cases. As noted above, all officers are assigned one. The lower the number, the more technically senior in a specific rank, for precedence purposes.If anything you did while at USNA (including being the valedictorian of your class) mattered in the least for promotions once you got into the Fleet, I would be shocked. As far as the USMC is concerned, the step from O-1 to O-2 requires only a certain amount of time and a strong pulse.
No one cares about lineal numbers until they are more senior. I learned about them in my first job at NAVSTA Rota Port Services. When we had a large number of ships in and had to nest frigates or destroyers at the pier, as I wrote the berthing plan, I had to look up lineal numbers and place the senior CO at the pier, nesting the most junior CO in the outboard position. These ships were all skippered by O-5s, the same rank and normally no difference in the way they were treated, but the book of lineal numbers determined very clearly the precedence order. Funnily enough, at the end of my career, one of my collateral duties on the Navy staff was managing flag officer parking at the Pentagon. We had dedicated spots for 2-stars and above, easy-peasy. There were insuffficient spots for 1-stars, so about six of them had to park in a designated area set aside for Executive Assistants who were senior captains. How did I know which 1-star got the lot or a designated space? The lineal number once again. Every one of them knew their lineal number and the minute a 1-star with a designated spot departed, the next “lot admiral” with the lowest lineal number was sending me a note asking to swap out his or her parking pass.
The most impactful use of lineal numbers does indeed relate to promotion boards, typically starting at the O-4 promotion board. Promotion to O-2 and O-3 are not board-competitive, essentially fog-a-mirror promotions if recommended by their CO.
If retention is a little too good, with not enough people getting out along the way, especially at the end of obligated service, often a USNA class (and other commissioning source officers in the same year group) is split, with officers below a certain lineal number going before the board in one year, and the ones above a certain lineal number the next year. So if you have two USNA roommates, and this happened to their year group, and they have been the same rank since their Commissioning Day, one of them may have graduated high enough in the class to have a lower lineal number and make the cut for the promotion board a year earlier than the roomie who graduated lower in the class. Promotion zones are ruled by the by-law caps on numbers of officers in each pay grade, and delineated at either end by the lineal numbers defining the most junior and most senior in grade.
See page 5.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 22, 2018
- Messages
- 5,754
Yes. Limited number of them, but there are.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2010
- Messages
- 6,246
My year group was split at LCDR and thankfully I was on the good side so I had a year more of LCDR pay than some of my classmates. Looks for CDR followed with that split so the other group was a year behind for that as well.
WT Door
Member
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2019
- Messages
- 922
As a JO, I learned about lineal numbers on the bridge of my ship. The CO on our LHA was an F-4 Radar Intercept Officer (RIO). He knew most of the carrier COs in Norfolk. We were returning after short workup period and were heading toward the Chesapeake Bay Channel. The Captain was informed that one particular carrier would be entering around the same time. The “Old Man” indicated that he knew he was senior to that carrier CO. The Navigator confirmed the fact and our ship entered the channel and moored pier side first well ahead of the carrier.
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2007
- Messages
- 2,475
As always, thanks to CaptMJ for the detailed explanation and OldRetSWO. I wanted to mention this so that MIDN strive to do well at USNA so they obtain the highest OOM, as it could have some slight impacts down the road, especially if they know they want to make a Naval career.