scoutpilot
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Do you honestly, seriously doubt that Yale University has a greater cachet than USAFA? USAFA doesn't even have the greatest cachet among the SAs, for heaven's sake.
Which on would you recommend Yale AFROTC or USAFA
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mbleykhman
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I know that both are excellent schools so it is no wrong choice. Both are amazing schools.
scoutpilot
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Sorry, that was directed that the commenter above mine, not at you. I do recommend Yale, though, for a variety of reasons.
mbleykhman
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Not a problem. She is going to become Air Force Officer one way or another, just trying to see what is best for her situation.
If you can afford the last two years of Yale without a scholarship and your daughter is ok with not receiving a commission in the AF in the event she is not selected for a SFT slot, then I would pick Yale over the USAFA in a heartbeat, given her ultimate goal is Medical school.
Pima
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I agree with Jcleppe.
If you can afford Yale witthout the scholarship than go Yale.
USAFA is great, and if she said she wanted to be flight surgeon, than I would say USAFA.
Last year the SFT rate was @60%, this year it was 83%.
AFROTC type 1 scholarship has a best sitting 31 ACT AVERAGE. USAFA is around the same. Your DD will be competing against other cadets with scores like her and in STEM programs.
The AF is tech/stem oriented like the Navy. Review the curriculum that is mandated at USAFA before you make a decision.
If you can afford Yale witthout the scholarship than go Yale.
USAFA is great, and if she said she wanted to be flight surgeon, than I would say USAFA.
Last year the SFT rate was @60%, this year it was 83%.
AFROTC type 1 scholarship has a best sitting 31 ACT AVERAGE. USAFA is around the same. Your DD will be competing against other cadets with scores like her and in STEM programs.
The AF is tech/stem oriented like the Navy. Review the curriculum that is mandated at USAFA before you make a decision.
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scoutpilot
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Yale, like most Ivies, gives tuition aid based on a family's ability to pay.
And at times it can be very generous when coupled with any academic scholarships.
A family friend is a Flight Surgeon at McChord, he was NROTC in college, med school followed, later joined Navy Reserve as a LtCmdr/Dr., left the Navy and now is AF. I don't think AFA has a lock of future Flight Surgeons.
Pima
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Jcleppe,
I don't disagree.
Flight surgeons for the AF are the docs that also fly. I don't know about the Army, but for the AF, they are rated too. Just saying if she wants to do both, than USAFA might be a better option over Yale.
Just looking at a long run. AF she can go UPT and apply for med school, or vise a verse.
The problem she is looking at is either way neither option is 100% guarantee for commissioning. She has to a make it through the next 4 years, and for AFROTC she has to meet the SFT board.
~ You know as well as I she also has to have a high OML.
Back on topic, as a Yale cadet she should be okay for SFT, but there is no guarantee.
Finances put aside than the question really is does she want an SA life?
The question she needs to answer impo is what we posed to our DS. IF you could be sure that you would get Med school either way, would you go USAFA or AFROTC?
~ That is a gut check.
I truly believe USAFA has the same cachet as Yale regarding the academic level. Big difference is USAFA is an SA with more ED options than AFROTC....AND they don't have to meet another board like AFROTC cadets.
~ Would you tell your child to go to Yale over USMA if they had a 70% chance when they were sophomores?
~~ Yes, yea needs finances. Trust me, I heard it from Notre Same, Stanford, UPenn Princeton, Harvard and Stanford.
The problem is AFROTC IS NOT AROTC. 2 years in, they still have to fight for an SFT slot! AROTC cadets don't meet any board as a cadet. It is months of far.
~ Last year the national average for non tech /non rated was 17%.
~~ Pre med is non tech.
I don't disagree.
Flight surgeons for the AF are the docs that also fly. I don't know about the Army, but for the AF, they are rated too. Just saying if she wants to do both, than USAFA might be a better option over Yale.
Just looking at a long run. AF she can go UPT and apply for med school, or vise a verse.
The problem she is looking at is either way neither option is 100% guarantee for commissioning. She has to a make it through the next 4 years, and for AFROTC she has to meet the SFT board.
~ You know as well as I she also has to have a high OML.
Back on topic, as a Yale cadet she should be okay for SFT, but there is no guarantee.
Finances put aside than the question really is does she want an SA life?
The question she needs to answer impo is what we posed to our DS. IF you could be sure that you would get Med school either way, would you go USAFA or AFROTC?
~ That is a gut check.
I truly believe USAFA has the same cachet as Yale regarding the academic level. Big difference is USAFA is an SA with more ED options than AFROTC....AND they don't have to meet another board like AFROTC cadets.
~ Would you tell your child to go to Yale over USMA if they had a 70% chance when they were sophomores?
~~ Yes, yea needs finances. Trust me, I heard it from Notre Same, Stanford, UPenn Princeton, Harvard and Stanford.
The problem is AFROTC IS NOT AROTC. 2 years in, they still have to fight for an SFT slot! AROTC cadets don't meet any board as a cadet. It is months of far.
~ Last year the national average for non tech /non rated was 17%.
~~ Pre med is non tech.
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scoutpilot
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Nothing personal intended, but you're completely wrong. USAFA doesn't have the academic cachet of Yale and it never will. They're different insitutions and seek different demographics. USAFA's academics simply aren't on par with Yale's. Nor, in an academic sense, is the student body.
Consider that for the Yale class of 2015, >50% of the class scored above a 760 on both the math and verbal SAT sections.
75% of the class scored above a 700 on math and a whopping 82% scored above a 700 on verbal.
74% of the class scored a 32 or above on the ACT.
97% of the Yale class were in the top 10% of their high school. 91% were in the top 5 percent!
Yale had 27,000 applicants, more than twice what USAFA had, and admitted the same number (1337 vs. 1351)
It was even more outrageous for the Yale class of 2017. 31,000 applicants!
USAFA can't touch those numbers. None of the SAs can. The SA's love to preach that they do, but they don't. Especially academically. Classes taught by 30 year-olds to overstressed kids who survive on the "spec & dump" model isn't the same as the academic rigors of a place like Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. It's the truth, and we're only fooling ourselves by pretending they're equal.
Yale more cachet as an institution, especially over USAFA.
Consider that for the Yale class of 2015, >50% of the class scored above a 760 on both the math and verbal SAT sections.
75% of the class scored above a 700 on math and a whopping 82% scored above a 700 on verbal.
74% of the class scored a 32 or above on the ACT.
97% of the Yale class were in the top 10% of their high school. 91% were in the top 5 percent!
Yale had 27,000 applicants, more than twice what USAFA had, and admitted the same number (1337 vs. 1351)
It was even more outrageous for the Yale class of 2017. 31,000 applicants!
USAFA can't touch those numbers. None of the SAs can. The SA's love to preach that they do, but they don't. Especially academically. Classes taught by 30 year-olds to overstressed kids who survive on the "spec & dump" model isn't the same as the academic rigors of a place like Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. It's the truth, and we're only fooling ourselves by pretending they're equal.
Yale more cachet as an institution, especially over USAFA.
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mbleykhman,
I just wanted to add...from my earlier post, I had mentioned my AFROTC son needed to compete for a Pre-Health EA at the beginning of his senior year. The AF OML (for pre-health) was computed as follows: 60% MCAT, 25% CGPA and 15% RSS. Again 12 AFROTC cadets received this EA, not sure about the process USAFA uses but someone mentioned in an earlier post "few" are sponsored to med school?? In terms of the med school applications, obviously MCAT scores and CGPA carry significant weight but med schools are also looking at your experiences as well, have you shadowed physicians, volunteered in your community, performed lab research, published papers, etc. etc.
That being said in addition to weighing the "Air Force" side of the equation, (4-yr military lifestyle at USAFA, the possibility of not getting through the SFT gate in AFROTC), your daughter should be looking at which program of study, curriculum, extracurricular activities (and yes pizza...) puts her in the best position for 1) the AF to sponsor her medical school education and 2) get accepted into medical school. Now of course both schools obviously send folks to med school but at the end of the day it will be how your daughter leverages a school's unique offerings.
One thing your daughter might consider is calling admissions at each school, have them put her in touch with seniors heading to med school and get their take on what their undergrad experience afforded them. My son is doing that now, but with the medical schools he has been accepted to, talking to students about how their schools prepared them for the USMLE STEP exams, prepared them for the residency match, etc.
Hope this gives you a bit more info...again good luck as you work through to your decision.
I just wanted to add...from my earlier post, I had mentioned my AFROTC son needed to compete for a Pre-Health EA at the beginning of his senior year. The AF OML (for pre-health) was computed as follows: 60% MCAT, 25% CGPA and 15% RSS. Again 12 AFROTC cadets received this EA, not sure about the process USAFA uses but someone mentioned in an earlier post "few" are sponsored to med school?? In terms of the med school applications, obviously MCAT scores and CGPA carry significant weight but med schools are also looking at your experiences as well, have you shadowed physicians, volunteered in your community, performed lab research, published papers, etc. etc.
That being said in addition to weighing the "Air Force" side of the equation, (4-yr military lifestyle at USAFA, the possibility of not getting through the SFT gate in AFROTC), your daughter should be looking at which program of study, curriculum, extracurricular activities (and yes pizza...) puts her in the best position for 1) the AF to sponsor her medical school education and 2) get accepted into medical school. Now of course both schools obviously send folks to med school but at the end of the day it will be how your daughter leverages a school's unique offerings.
One thing your daughter might consider is calling admissions at each school, have them put her in touch with seniors heading to med school and get their take on what their undergrad experience afforded them. My son is doing that now, but with the medical schools he has been accepted to, talking to students about how their schools prepared them for the USMLE STEP exams, prepared them for the residency match, etc.
Hope this gives you a bit more info...again good luck as you work through to your decision.
Is this a reasonable comparison....?
PS: The almighty pizza comparison has already been made.
- Attending USAFA as a biology/premed major will mean very high chance to commission, but lower chance to get med school
- Attending YALE/AFROTC as a biology/premed major will mean lower chance to commission, but higher chance to get to med school
PS: The almighty pizza comparison has already been made.
Pima
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Jçleppe
I brought up the Army because I was curious if the Army's flight surgeons are rated. That is something I thought you would know. Kill me for being curious. It was not meant as anything more than learning the difference between the branches.
The OP is not thinking of going Navy. Since your friend that is in the AF that left the Navy Reserves would be too old to go rated due to age constraints I am not surprised he is not rated. Is he AF Reserve/ANG?
~ If he left Navy Reserves as an O4, that would make them at the very youngest 32 (assume 10 years to make that rank). Age cutoff for UPT is 29.
~ AF Reserve/ANG also have flight surgeons. One of our friends left ADAF to open his own practice.He joined the Reserves and was a flight doc there, but honestly, he just was a doc assigned to the unit and saw any and all Reservists, not just rated personnel. ADAF flight docs only see Aircrew and their families, regardless of their field specialty.
I don't know of any flight doc in the AF that is not rated, heck one of my OB/GYN was the flight doc assigned to Bullets squadron. He flew with the guys. Another one of my docs (ortho) was also a flight doc. These docs have their own specialties, but when the squadron deploys they deploy with them.
~ My DSs flight surgeon flies with his squadron. The difference for him compared to us is that his wife is not eligible to see the flight doc. My guess is due to the fact that his airframe has more members than the F15E and can't handle the amount of patients if they allowed the family to use it too.
I know two posters here that considered this path. They were told there two ways to gst there. Go to UPT and apply for med school afterwards. Go to Med school and than apply for UPT. Both have risks. Many decide to go to UPT first because of age constraints .
~ Not saying there aren't flight docs that aren't rated. Just saying in ADAF I never saw a flight doc that didn't fly, Bullet of course flew fighters, so maybe in the EC130 or AWAC where they have large crews of 5 or more people the flight surgeon might not be rated.
I brought up the Army because I was curious if the Army's flight surgeons are rated. That is something I thought you would know. Kill me for being curious. It was not meant as anything more than learning the difference between the branches.
The OP is not thinking of going Navy. Since your friend that is in the AF that left the Navy Reserves would be too old to go rated due to age constraints I am not surprised he is not rated. Is he AF Reserve/ANG?
~ If he left Navy Reserves as an O4, that would make them at the very youngest 32 (assume 10 years to make that rank). Age cutoff for UPT is 29.
~ AF Reserve/ANG also have flight surgeons. One of our friends left ADAF to open his own practice.He joined the Reserves and was a flight doc there, but honestly, he just was a doc assigned to the unit and saw any and all Reservists, not just rated personnel. ADAF flight docs only see Aircrew and their families, regardless of their field specialty.
I don't know of any flight doc in the AF that is not rated, heck one of my OB/GYN was the flight doc assigned to Bullets squadron. He flew with the guys. Another one of my docs (ortho) was also a flight doc. These docs have their own specialties, but when the squadron deploys they deploy with them.
~ My DSs flight surgeon flies with his squadron. The difference for him compared to us is that his wife is not eligible to see the flight doc. My guess is due to the fact that his airframe has more members than the F15E and can't handle the amount of patients if they allowed the family to use it too.
I know two posters here that considered this path. They were told there two ways to gst there. Go to UPT and apply for med school afterwards. Go to Med school and than apply for UPT. Both have risks. Many decide to go to UPT first because of age constraints .
~ Not saying there aren't flight docs that aren't rated. Just saying in ADAF I never saw a flight doc that didn't fly, Bullet of course flew fighters, so maybe in the EC130 or AWAC where they have large crews of 5 or more people the flight surgeon might not be rated.
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Irv61, was your son allowed to do medical internships sponsored by AFROTC during the summer? I am guessing your DS did these things, just wondering if AFROTC set this up and paid for it as part of his summer training or he did it on his own time. Not sure about USAFA, but at USNA Mids who are competitive on the med track I know get opportunities during their summer training to go to Bethesda and other Navy hospitals and do Internships where they do research and shadow. Anyone know about USAFA? Guessing they have something similar?
All of his "medical" experiences were done outside of ROTC...he started working in Biomedical Science research lab at his University the summer after his freshman year and continued that experience year-round right up to his graduation next month. He also regularly volunteered at a hospital near his school and shadowed physicians back home on his winter breaks. The only AF summer training he had was his SFT at Maxwell and then he returned to Alabama last summer as a CTA (which did result in a slight delay in getting his med school secondary apps in...but things worked out). I do believe that the leadership experiences he gained while in AFROTC, being a SFT Distinguished Graduate, being a Combatives CTA, the command positions at his DET, etc. added significantly to his medical school application package and again the cadre at his DET have been extremely supportive as he navigated the process.
Pima
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Mbley,
Something AFROTC has recently brought back is summer training for rising 200s. I believe this is the first year after stopping it for years. It is only offered to scholarship cadets. I want to say it is two weeks (can't remember). They will be sent to a base and basically it is a shadowing experience.
~ Caveat. Type 7 cadets that convert to a Type 2 3 year do not go because they are not contracted yet.
Food for thought if she decides to try for an internship after her freshmen year because if they offer it again next year she will need to think about that.
Something AFROTC has recently brought back is summer training for rising 200s. I believe this is the first year after stopping it for years. It is only offered to scholarship cadets. I want to say it is two weeks (can't remember). They will be sent to a base and basically it is a shadowing experience.
~ Caveat. Type 7 cadets that convert to a Type 2 3 year do not go because they are not contracted yet.
Food for thought if she decides to try for an internship after her freshmen year because if they offer it again next year she will need to think about that.
USMCGrunt
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Scout: I wanted to thank you for broadening my vocabulary. I am not sure how many other posters will admit this, but I will fully admit that this dumb Marine had no idea what you were speaking about when mentioning the relative "cachet" between universities. I was motivated to seek out an online dictionary to learn what this mysterious quality was. Thanks.