Controversy of Cadet Group Photo -- Reactions from West Pointers?

[scoutpilot]

In a year-long study, The Washington Post found that the kind of incidents that have ignited protests in many U.S. communities — most often, white police officers killing unarmed black men — represent less than 4 percent of fatal police shootings.

another article which gets into some detail:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...e-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/?page=all

"The data doesn’t indicate which shootings are justified (the vast majority) and which are cold-blooded murder (not many, but some). And maybe that would vary by race. I don’t know, but I doubt it,” Mr. Moskos said on his blog."

That's some LOL-worthy ignorance there. The main thrust of the issue is police using greater force and with less reservation against black men, especially in cases where deadly force was not justified. So this guy's answer is...to not look at that.

Also from that article:
"The fact-checking website PolitiFact concluded in August 2014 that police kill more whites than blacks after the claim was made by conservative commentator Michael Medved. PolitiFact cited data from the Centers for Disease Control on fatal injuries by “legal intervention” from 1999 to 2011.

“Over the span of more than a decade, 2,151 whites died by being shot by police compared to 1,130 blacks. In that respect, Medved is correct,” said PolitiFact.

But PolitiFact gave his assertion a “half true” rating because whites make up 63 percent of the population, while blacks make up just 12 percent.

“Yes, more whites than blacks die as a result of an encounter with police, but whites also represent a much bigger chunk of the total population,” PolitiFact said in its Aug. 21 post.

But PolitiFact did not take into account the percentage of those by race involved in violent crime or shootings of police, as Mr. Moskos did.

Despite the recent flood of media coverage involving police shootings, Mr. Moskos advised his readers to “keep all this morbidity in perspective,” reminding them that very few people, white or black, will ever be shot or killed by police.

“The odds that any given black man will shoot and kill a police officer in any given year is slim to none, about one in a million. The odds for any given white man? One in four million,” he said. “The odds that a black man will be shot and killed by a police officer is about 1 in 60,000. For a white man those odds are 1 in 200,000.”

The later compilation of data from state and local government data indicates, as referenced in the WaPo article posted higher above, that unarmed black men were shot by police at a 15 times higher rate than unarmed white men.

Something to consider. Especially if you say, happen to care about an unarmed black man in America. Which these young women probably do.

The question is a matter of perspective, which it seems is sorely lacking here. These young women aren't victims in a personal sense. What they are are young leaders who posed for a photo among friends--friends who have lived the similar experience of being young and black in country that treats blacks with far less respect and dignity than it automatically affords to white people.

 

[AJC]

As asked for in the OP I would be interested to hear from WP grads.
These group photos seem to be a tradition. I imagine a whole range of gestures have been displayed over the years.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Now let's quote a blog, with someone saying "I don't know".

So WaPo says 15 times, based in "their" database, but no figure on justified shootings....

And that leaves us where exactly? It might be interesting to see the stats in violent crimes or some context on what proceeds a shooting (not years, I'm saying context of what lead to the confrontation.

And again, a socio-economic break down.

But I'll ask again, did these women state this was the reason for the fist photo, or is that coming from someone else? Implicit or explicit?

 

[Blessedmom]

What is all this fuss! All I see is beautiful strong female cadets proud of being West Point grads, females & Black.
Being for black pride, black power or any pro black movements doesn't mean you are against USA.

 

[LineInTheSand]

I had a classmate my 4/c year who wrote a letter (using his name and location as the Coast Guard Academy) to Playboy to thank them for providing an alternative to the CGA girls (or something to that effect, I saw the letter only briefly). His letter wasn't advisable and brought unwanted attention to him (and at some level CGA).

Perhaps the photo is a "we're tough and we made it, against all the odds" but as a cadet I would have regretted this attention.

My 1/c my classmates took a photo behind a big check. It was made too look like they were naked (they weren't). They regretted the decision, which didn't seem well-informed at the time. We laugh about it now, but it wasn't so pretty at the time. It was the first taste of "oops, Facebook mistake."

I haven't seen anything about the intent, but is guess this got a little bigger than any (or at least most) of them would have liked.

10-20 years ago this would be a story. Now, with social media, it can make the rounds.

 

[tug_boat]

Don't kid yourself. BLM is a destructive organization that is gaining momentum. It was born from the Martin case in Florida that may have had innocent intentions in the beginning but has morphed into something that is divisive, racist, hateful and destructive. Do you want this type of value system take root in our military leadership? It would render our fighting forces to organized chaos and fractured. I don't know what these women intentions were, but then again "You see what you want to see"

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/03/cair-joins-black-lives-matter-movement/

Push Hard, Press Forward

 

[tug_boat]

For the OP:
Nininger Hall was built in 1851 and when the new barracks were constructed they left a portion remain in central area. The building now is used for Honor Boards and it is said the moat is filled with the ghost uniforms of cadets who left them. Photo opportunities all allowed to cadets for single, with a buddy or group to take a pic like the "old guard". Many old historical photos can be found in the same manner. Today Firsties will gather and take a photo holding their "class rings" high in the air as a statement "we did it" and graduation is within a few short weeks.

Push Hard, Press Forward

 

[cb7893]

Scout +1

I would only add that the problem is more insidious than simple numbers of unarmed victims of police shootings by race. It extends from who gets cuffed and put in the back of a squad car all the way to who ends up in prison. I served on a prison citizen's advisory board. The statistic that I can't cite at this moment, but which I do recall, is that the race of the victim, not the perpetrator, is a better predictor of who ends up in prison. I'll let you guess which race is the best predictor. Nowhere is it more glaring than in capital cases. Of course, money and influence can anyone overcome the institutional bias.

As for as the 16 young ladies:

Understanding why 16 young women would identify with Beyoncé's message that a black woman is powerful and can do anything she wants isn't difficult when the context of our society is considered. Your stance thus far has basically been "their concerns aren't real because LOL I DON'T SEE IT." That's hardly up to your intellectual standard.

The question is a matter of perspective, which it seems is sorely lacking here. These young women aren't victims in a personal sense. What they are are young leaders who posed for a photo among friends--friends who have lived the similar experience of being young and black in country that treats blacks with far less respect and dignity than it automatically affords to white people.

Notwithstanding the fact that I SEE IT, I see the expression as callow youth. I have no clue as to what is in there hearts. I'll give them the respect of assuming that they were not "shouting out" to Beyoncé.

At worse, they are expressing a political opinion while in uniform and under the color of the USMA. This is highly offensive to a many of us who happen to agree with their sentiments. Using the power and prestige of the uniform to advance political and religious points of view is what other countries do. We may occasional slip up and cross that Chinese wall, but the separation is one of the most powerful tenets of our exceptionalism. It's why folks have clawed their way and risked their lives to get to this country, many through military service.

At best, it's using a pop culture meme to comment on a serious and complex issue. Using memes for anything other than self-mockery is embarrassing. It is also par for the course in the real world. Somehow I thought SA cadets/Mids would be capable of deeper thought. It shows a lack of imagination and cluelessness as to the legacies of their forebears and their own place in history.

Had they asked this middle-aged white guy for advice, I would have suggested they pose in front of the Lee Barracks holding proofs of the new $20 bills with Harriet Tubman's picture.

 

[scoutpilot]

Somehow I thought SA cadets/Mids would be capable of deeper thought.

This is something I hear often on here from parents/older folks and it always strikes me as a bit off. Folks like to use it as a back-handed way of saying someone is dumb or wrong, or that being a cadet/mid renders one incapable of holding an opposing view or making an error. So often it comes across as "well you should know better if you're really leadership material."

This particular photo aside, I wish this board would give up on the very hollow and very paternal trope of declaring that a cadet/mid is "capable of more" or "should have better judgment" etc. etc. ad nauseum. Cadets and mids are human, and leadership is an ongoing learning process. Every good leader you meet can name 5 things in the past month he/she really screwed up. Secondly, that admonishment always seems to come out when some cadet or mids falls on the other side of the belief line over a particular issue.

USMA and USNA aren't magical places where cadets somehow immediately are imbued with papal restraint and Lama-esque insights. Yet that's what this statement demands of them.

Such sentiments certainly aren't unique to you and I don't mean this as a personal takedown. This just jogged my memory.

 

[LineInTheSand]

To add on, as a junior officer I made my share of mistakes (including leadership-related). Cadets and midshipmen aren't perfect.... Neither are officers.

 

[VelveteenR]

What is all this fuss! All I see is beautiful strong female cadets proud of being West Point grads, females & Black.
Being for black pride, black power or any pro black movements doesn't mean you are against USA.

This is not specifically about race or pride or gender. The issue here is that cadets are not allowed to make political statements while in uniform. What is being reviewed by USMA is whether or not these cadets were making a political statement. If it is determined that they were, they will be reprimanded because they have broken an army regulation.

(I believe this has already been settled and the reprimand will not affect their graduation. Someone closer to the source may be able to be more explicit.)

 

[cga82]

For the OP:
Nininger Hall was built in 1851 and when the new barracks were constructed they left a portion remain in central area. The building now is used for Honor Boards and it is said the moat is filled with the ghost uniforms of cadets who left them. Photo opportunities all allowed to cadets for single, with a buddy or group to take a pic like the "old guard". Many old historical photos can be found in the same manner. Today Firsties will gather and take a photo holding their "class rings" high in the air as a statement "we did it" and graduation is within a few short weeks.

Push Hard, Press Forward

Wasn't a Tony's Pizza located in the basement of the Hall?

 

[MemberLG]

What is all this fuss! All I see is beautiful strong female cadets proud of being West Point grads, females & Black.
Being for black pride, black power or any pro black movements doesn't mean you are against USA.

The fuss is that what you see is different from what some other folks see. Some other folks see a political statement.

Do you remember perhaps a few months ago, bunch of eithe Citadel cadets got in trouble for wearing pillow cases on their head that made them look like KKK?

 

[FutureCadet12]

Well, I have learned quite a bit from this discussion - I guess when it comes to military personnel, sometimes the intention doesn't matter so much as how people construe it.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Well, I have learned quite a bit from this discussion - I guess when it comes to military personnel, sometimes the intention doesn't matter so much as how people construe it.

Perception is reality.... that will be a reality of each service academy, each service and in the civilian world...

 

[haleym]

In today's day and age, old school bigotry (i.e. outright discriminatory behavior) is not accepted or tolerated. However, that does not mean that it racism is not a thing. One of the worst (and most offensive) arguments in the book is the idea that "we have equal rights, so what do you have to complain about?". It is not rocket science to come to the conclusion that whites and minorities are most definitely NOT on equal playing fields. Educational opportunities and poverty rates specifically point to this. It is truly unfortunate.
"Modern prejudice" refers to the subtle negative attitudes some individuals have towards minorities. Normative pressures have forced those with prejudice to disguise it- which makes it a lot more difficult to determine who may hold these types of beliefs. But again... it is of utmost importance to recognize that these negative attitudes exist among some Americans in the first place, and are the cause of a lot of dissent in our nation. Even when we don't believe we could ever hold these attitudes ourselves, we have implicit biases that cause us to think or behave in a certain way. This is not opinion- this is fact.
To expand on this: while I agree with a lot of scoutpilot said, I want to bring something to light on one point so there is no misconstrual on the character of our police officers. The issue is generally NOT with the officers themselves, but rather our society in general. In a study conducted by the University of Chicago, participants are tasked with discerning several images from each other: a white or black male holding a cell phone, and a white or black male holding a gun. Upon seeing the image, they have to make the decision (in milliseconds) about whether or not to shoot their weapon in self defense. What did they gather? Regardless of the crowd surveyed, the response was overwhelmingly the same: "people’s mistakes, although rare, follow a pattern: they shoot more unarmed blacks than unarmed whites, and they fail to shoot more whites than blacks who turn out to be holding weapons" (http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0778/investigations/shooters_choice.shtml). So again, the problem is NOT with our police officers. I feel the need to stress this because my father is a police officer himself, who has never once fired his weapon on duty, and who I believe to be a good man. I always find it disturbing when I hear stories about cops being portrayed as racist, trigger-happy killers. This is simply not true. The problem is with our society and the implicit attitudes each of us hold, and is something we should all strive to work on together.

 

[LineInTheSand]

The issue, here, is what is acceptable in and out of uniform.

 

[Americanpatriot]

Despite perceptions that one can conclude, what's missing for me is their intent, not what the gesture represents, but their intent. I find it difficult to believe that a group of potential graduates would be negligent enough to throw caution to the wind to make a socially-charged statement with no regard for consequences. If the investigators conclude that the gesture is understood but in bad taste for the environment, counsel and discuss with the group and allow them to move on. Not worth the sacrifice to toss away their potential.

 

[scoutpilot]

The issue, here, is what is acceptable in and out of uniform.

The greater question is whether a fist raised in "black pride" actually constitutes political activity in uniform.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Despite perceptions that one can conclude, what's missing for me is their intent, not what the gesture represents, but their intent. I find it difficult to believe that a group of potential graduates would be negligent enough to throw caution to the wind to make a socially-charged statement with no regard for consequences. If the investigators conclude that the gesture is understood but in bad taste for the environment, counsel and discuss with the group and allow them to move on. Not worth the sacrifice to toss away their potential.

Agreed. I haven't seen any statement from them on their intent (although I haven't really looked).

West Point, like any service academy, is a fairly isolated experience. There are dumb photos I took or my classmates took at CGA that benefited from a general lack of social media. That said, I'm not sure what people could have concluded from my dumb 100th Day photos.