Controversy of Cadet Group Photo -- Reactions from West Pointers?

[MemberLG]

Then we run into the uncomfortable question: How many within that ballpark 6.3% (I believe it's higher because the black female population in America skews younger) attend a high school and live in a community that affords them even a snowball's chance at meeting the academic and administrative requirements to attend an academy?

The answer to 1mom's post is the whole of the failing public education system in urban America.

The number could be in thousands, but it is reasonable to assume most are not interested in attending a SA and pursuing a military career.

The only way we improve is by asking uncomfortable questions and taking corrective actions.

Failing public education system in urban America is a part of the answer. My answer to 1mom's post is lack of individual accountability (not necessarily the student, but parents, community, politicians, and etc.). Simply, urban public education system cannot be fixed by the government alone. A lack of funding is one of the reasons why urban pubic education suffers. Some argue that the additional funding is the starting point to fix the problem. Least for the urban public school system I know, per student spending is the highest in the state, but the student accomplishments are at the bottom. I don't recall too many school administrators, teachers, and politicians getting fired or not getting re-elected (i.e. accountability). I don't see too many parents taking responsibilities for their kids failures.

 

[jebdad]

Then we run into the uncomfortable question: How many within that ballpark 6.3% (I believe it's higher because the black female population in America skews younger) attend a high school and live in a community that affords them even a snowball's chance at meeting the academic and administrative requirements to attend an academy?

The answer to 1mom's post is the whole of the failing public education system in urban America.

The blame "white America" mantra only goes so far. As the father of a son who was denied admission to USMA this year while other candidates with lower test scores and GPAs were blessed with special visitation opportunities to WP and then granted admission, I get tired of hearing how "white America" is to blame for all that ails the minority community. There are numerous scholarship and government programs aimed at helping minorities overcome many obstacles in front of them. There are a lot of people of all colors putting a lot of time and resources into helping minorities overcome the "200 years" of oppression.

You can flame away at me, but at some point the crumbling family structure and loss of moral foundation has to be recognized and can only be addressed by leaders in those communities who want to stop blaming others and start calling upon people to look within themselves at whether they have their house in order and are doing all they can do to be a productive part of the community.

 

[LineInTheSand]

LineInTheSand

Not to be sarcastic, but I do understand the Army Times, I read it faithfully for over 20 years. It would be interesting to know whether or not they would have published the article had they looked into how John Burk does business. I also understand the scope and intent of DOD Directive 1344.10. I don't care to speculate on what their gesture was intended to mean, I leave that in the hands of those doing the investigation. Mr. Burk already eluded to his feelings that it may be construed as public support of BLM. In part, I attribute a hefty part of the racial war of words in the thousands of comments on social media to that part of his remark.

Again, my personal issue is how John Burk uses "resources" within an active duty unit or school to prejudice the standards of conduct and the order of discipline for his personal agenda. If he is making a true statement that he has at least seven sources within the academy, that is a grave concern. If he has cadets reporting to him, then he is empowering them to violate the same standards for which the 16 lady cadets are accused of violating. The same goes for the permanent party cadre, if they are his sources. I can't imagine that there would be cadre assigned to West Point that would think it was more appropriate to feed John Burk a story than to deal with code violations directly. Who really knows! I will close my share of this thread by reiterating just how unprofessional and distasteful it is for John Burk to violate the same ethic and conduct standards that he purports to have demanded of himself and his fellow soldiers while he was on active duty. If this photo and story initially came from within the ranks of the academy we wouldn't be having this conversation. I do appreciate your previous reply.

If you've read Army Times (or any of the military times) for 20 years, you have more patience than I could hope to have.

To help me understand, what is your concern over sources?

Also, understand I have no idea who this guy is.

And while I'm sure my participation here makes it look like I'm interesting in this, in reality, beyond seeing the photo and read a basic CNN article (that was less about the photo and more about statements) I haven't followed this (and don't really plan to).

 

[scoutpilot]

Talk about hypocrisy Scout, you aren't shy with your common "white American" opinions, I'll say you have common "black American" arguments. Despite the data - just 22 police shootings in Chicago in the entire 2015 year, white cops shooting unarmed black men is your focus and the focus of BLM. I noticed you skirted this question - do black lives matter to the black men who are shooting them? Which is by a huge margin far more likely. Funny how we don't see Sharpton stumping in Chicago or protest rallies, CNN coverage and celebrity outrage when another inner city young man gets gunned down.

And it's years of oppression and being marginalized that results in arming of the young men in these neighborhoods and lack of values and morality? And you accuse others of making specious arguments.



OK, out of 22 police shootings for the entire year in Chicago, we know of one noteworthy case of an unarmed black male. How many more? I don't know. But the fact remains that when a black man is shot in Chicago the numbers are "stunningly disproportionate" as you say. He is most like being shot by a black male. And over 70% of homicides are by black males. 3.5% are by white males. Are these numbers not disproportionate?

If only America ended at the city limits of Chicago...

 

[scoutpilot]

If you've read Army Times (or any of the military times) for 20 years, you have more patience than I could hope to have.

You said it, man. Nevertheless I look forward to the 137th installment of the "Big Changes Coming to the APFT" article series.

 

[cga82]

I agree, that should be a major focus of the investigation. However, my concern is how the story got published and the possible effect that could loom over the academy.

This should have been handled by the West Point Administration only. Those who knew should have stopped the problem ASAP to prevent the spread.

What was the Intent of the Cadets? Their Integrity may be tested here. They may have just made a mistake. They may pay the price.

Perception is a problem and a lessen to be learned. I've been taught that if "IT" can be PERCEIVED by others as being wrong then don't do it. Unless, you are willing to pay the price.

Two of my classmates and I got into a little trouble. A mayor contacted the Supt and Cdt about the incident. Our entire class (155 strong) were willing to take the hit for the 3 of us. The Commandant threatened to Restrict my entire class during summer break. My 2 classmates and I turned ourselves in and paid the price. This was handle at the Academy and could have made a big splash in the newspapers but never did. I will not say what we did but the Commandant gave us an "A" for Esprit de Corps but a "zero" for brain work.

 

[Sledge]

Subsequent to my recent post to briefly express my thoughts, my real concern is a greater story behind this whole issue. Based on information provided by news media, this photo and an article was submitted to the likes of CNN, the New York Times, and I believe others might have been contacted, as well. The story that seems to have sparked a response by West Point to launch an investigation was published in a blog by John Burk, a former enlisted Drill Instructor. His story was published by the Army Times. Worthy news stories get published all the time. However, it is the blatantly unprofessional and unethical manner in which John Burk conducts business to which that I take offense. To understand Burk's self-processed agenda, you can see his videos and comments on his Facebook page and his blog, among other things. Burk reveals that his source of factual information comes from "his" sources (about seven) from within the Academy itself. His sources charge that some of the lady cadets in the photo have dawned their BLM shirts at times and he is concerned that the gesture of their clenched fists may be perceived as a BLM statement. He claims that the problem is not their support of BLM, but that they display their support while in uniform. You'll find more behind that on FB. He insists that "race" was not a motivation behind his action. Only John Burk knows for sure. This photo has been shared on FB dozens of times with thousands of comments. You will find no shortage of hardcore racist statements from his supporters. Since he professes to be a champion of standards of professionalism and conduct, I find it very concerning that I've yet to see a post from him disapproving the remarks by his loyal followers and others. You'll discover from his social media formats that he has taken it upon himself to recruit active duty soldiers to find instances of unprofessional conduct in their units and instances where NCOs and officers are not being fair and equal in their treatment of soldiers. He asks his recruits to send him the story with photos for him to publicize. See the story of CSM Fourtney, 8th MP Bde. He basically threatens the unit chain of command that "I am watching to see if you are doing right by your soldiers." Back to USMA, how does a veteran insist that the 16 female cadets be held in contempt for violating standards of conduct when he uses vigilante tactics to undermine the very code of conduct that he claims to live by, even as a veteran? He emphasizes the uncompromising accountability of cadets' code of conduct, but yet he knowingly compromises the ethics and integrity of his supposed seven informants within the academy. He doesn't specify whether or not his informants are cadets or permanent party personnel. If they are academy cadre, why haven't they addressed the issue? His loyal followers seem to be drooling while they wait for results of the investigation. The mist preferred resolution appears to be "kick them out!" In my association with the army that began over 40 years ago, I have never seen a more disgusting and distasteful display of unprofessionalism.

Brenda Sue Fulton, a very angry Old Grad from the first class of females and now the exalted Obama-appointed President of the USMA Board of Visitors, and her ilk often "release" stories of interest to her agenda to their pet reporters at the NYT, e.g. "pillow fight," "plebe boxing." And, not surpisingly, she came out in support of those in the photograph that is the subject of this thread. It goes both ways.

 

[Padre101]

http://www.armytimes.com/story/mili...oto-inappropriate-but-not-political/84196326/

The bottom line: No punitive action. They will graduate. They will receive counseling.

 

[Blessedmom]

http://www.armytimes.com/story/mili...oto-inappropriate-but-not-political/84196326/

The bottom line: No punitive action. They will graduate. They will receive counseling.

Glad to hear, time to have long discussion with DS, future Mid, that perception sometimes is stronger than reality, think before you talk, do, take pics, & post

 

[Sledge]

http://www.armytimes.com/story/mili...oto-inappropriate-but-not-political/84196326/

The bottom line: No punitive action. They will graduate. They will receive counseling.

lol. No Punishment - No Surprise.

Fists Up. Must Salute.

 

[Padre101]

lol. No Punishment - No Surprise.

Fists Up. Must Salute.

I thought this part of the article was dispositive:

West Point Superintendent Lt. Gen. Robert Caslen did note, however, that clenched-fists have been used in other ways at West Point in the past year as a display of pride for the Army and nation.

"For instance, last July, the class of 2019 spontaneously raised their fist in pride upon the playing of the Army Strong song during the Fourth of July Concert," he wrote in his letter. "Last December, on the night before the Army-Navy game, I joined hundreds of staff and graduates in raising our fist in support of the Army football team during the Army-Navy pep rally video. The time, place and manner of a symbol can also hold significant meaning and influence perception."

 

[Sledge]

I thought this part of the article was dispositive:

West Point Superintendent Lt. Gen. Robert Caslen did note, however, that clenched-fists have been used in other ways at West Point in the past year as a display of pride for the Army and nation.

"For instance, last July, the class of 2019 spontaneously raised their fist in pride upon the playing of the Army Strong song during the Fourth of July Concert," he wrote in his letter. "Last December, on the night before the Army-Navy game, I joined hundreds of staff and graduates in raising our fist in support of the Army football team during the Army-Navy pep rally video. The time, place and manner of a symbol can also hold significant meaning and influence perception."

You say dispositive. I say dissembling.

 

[Padre101]

You say dispositive. I say dissembling.

They both start with "D."

 

[USMCGrunt]

They both start with "D."

And are made up of 11 letters!

 

[cb7893]

I will not say what we did

Then you can just PM the details to me.

 

[MomWPgirl]

lol. No Punishment - No Surprise.

Fists Up. Must Salute.

Are you disappointed? I am pleased with outcome. I remember an event just a few short years ago that got way less media attention than this silly photo but was more divisive and egregious .....yet those Firsties also graduated with a simple slap on the wrist. Few here on this forum even discussed it at the time. And personally, I was elated when "Brenda Sue Fulton, a very angry Old Grad" stepped in on that one.

 

[BlahuKahuna]

Fists Up. Must Salute.

 

[Maplerock]

The number could be in thousands, but it is reasonable to assume most are not interested in attending a SA and pursuing a military career.

The only way we improve is by asking uncomfortable questions and taking corrective actions.

Failing public education system in urban America is a part of the answer. My answer to 1mom's post is lack of individual accountability (not necessarily the student, but parents, community, politicians, and etc.). Simply, urban public education system cannot be fixed by the government alone. A lack of funding is one of the reasons why urban pubic education suffers. Some argue that the additional funding is the starting point to fix the problem. Least for the urban public school system I know, per student spending is the highest in the state, but the student accomplishments are at the bottom. I don't recall too many school administrators, teachers, and politicians getting fired or not getting re-elected (i.e. accountability). I don't see too many parents taking responsibilities for their kids failures.

America's educational system is not failing. We produce many of the world's greatest minds.

What is failing though, is the parenting skills of a large portion of our society.

 

[Americanpatriot]

If you've read Army Times (or any of the military times) for 20 years, you have more patience than I could hope to have.

To help me understand, what is your concern over sources?

Also, understand I have no idea who this guy is.

And while I'm sure my participation here makes it look like I'm interesting in this, in reality, beyond seeing the photo and read a basic CNN article (that was less about the photo and more about statements) I haven't followed this (and don't really plan to).

Actually, this story isn't the only the most recent that got my attention. There appear to be many people that do not know John Burk, credited for submitting the original article to Army Times, and numerous well-know newspaper and tv media. I suggest to folks that want a snapshot of John Burk to visit his FB page as well as inthearenafitness.com, especially the videos. I can easily remove myself from the cadet debate. There are a number of us that are not his favorites. We simply deplore the way he goes about his business of supporting(?) soldiers on active duty. How does a former 11B, Drill Sgt., NCO Academy instructor, and staunch believer in the code of ethics and confuct recruit soldiers to seek violations in progress, and send him a report with photos. Other than undermining the chain of command and causing prejudice to order and discipline, what the hell lesson is he teaching those soldiers. During recent conversations, the statement was made that he is virtually a vigilante and that maybe he's getting revenge for something that happened at To him. Wish I knew. As for Wedt Point, if he truly has sources (snitches) at the academy, how the hell does one have the audacity to publicize the story? I would like to know, in the instances he's made public, how many times he recommended the chain of command or sent them the story instead of the Army Times. If it's possible that academy chain of command knew and chose to do nothing, I guess I'm one naive old soldier.

 

[Sledge]

Except they weren't doing The Rocket. And everyone knows it.

During recent conversations, the statement was made that he is virtually a vigilante and that maybe he's getting revenge for something that happened at To him. Wish I knew. As for West Point, if he truly has sources (snitches) at the academy, how the hell does one have the audacity to publicize the story? I would like to know, in the instances he's made public, how many times he recommended the chain of command or sent them the story instead of the Army Times. If it's possible that academy chain of command knew and chose to do nothing, I guess I'm one naive old soldier.

He sounds so much like the yin to Sue Fulton's yang, it's eerie.