Last year for USAFAPS?

[Christcorp]

But the majority of the applicants denied admissions is due to not securing a nomination. Many more applicants are denied appointments thru the nomination process than anything else.

That's true. Of the beginning 12,000+ that apply, it gets whittled down to about 2500-3000 qualified applicants. so right there is 9,000-10,000 denied.

But, there are 435 representative and 100 senators. That's 5350 nominations. So actually, there are more nominations than slots. And again, with the final total only being approximately 2500-3000 qualified candidates, there's a lot turned down.

 

[LineInTheSand]

If the GI bill is finance by the federal government, it should be on the chopping block just like everything else. Nothing should be isolated.

Oh, I don't disagree at all. My point is, the reality of the situation, in D.C. is our elected officials don't like to hear noise that could translate into a loss of votes.

But, yes, I agree that, in theory, anything should be on the chopping block. I just know that's not the reality of the situation.

 

[LineInTheSand]

That's true. Of the beginning 12,000+ that apply, it gets whittled down to about 2500-3000 qualified applicants. so right there is 9,000-10,000 denied.

But, there are 435 representative and 100 senators. That's 5350 nominations. So actually, there are more nominations than slots. And again, with the final total only being approximately 2500-3000 qualified candidates, there's a lot turned down.

Right, with the exception of high interest states, nominations are generally not the limiting factor. If it were, there would be more spots than nominations... the limiting factor is spots in each class.

 

[aseanag]

That's true. Of the beginning 12,000+ that apply, it gets whittled down to about 2500-3000 qualified applicants. so right there is 9,000-10,000 denied.

But, there are 435 representative and 100 senators. That's 5350 nominations. So actually, there are more nominations than slots. And again, with the final total only being approximately 2500-3000 qualified candidates, there's a lot turned down.

There is also the Presidential nominations that are offered. My only point is that the nomination process eliminated many more potential cadets than any other factor. The nomination process also will allow applicants from non competitative district easier access to an appointment than applicants from very competitative district. That is unfair to applicant with higher qualifications.

 

[LineInTheSand]

There is also the Presidential nominations that are offered. My only point is that the nomination process eliminated many more potential cadets than any other factor. The nomination process also will allow applicants from non competitative district easier access to an appointment than applicants from very competitative district. That is unfair to applicant with higher qualifications.

Sister, you're preaching to the chior. I think the Congressional nomination process is there for one reason, members of Congress want it to be.

But I do have one exception. We can assume some people who do not receive nominations were also not qualified to attend in the first place.

At my interview with Senator Bill Frist's office, a kid from Boys' State was also waiting for an interview. Likely his question "West Point is for the Army, right?" was a bad enough sign, but I also knew he had a drug issue in the past and was kicked out of Boys' State for urinating on another kid who was sleeping.

Did he receive a nomination? Probably not. Was that the only reason he wasn't accepted? Probably not, but it was the easiest to identify... just looking at numbers.

 

[Pima]

aseanag,

1. AFROTC cadets are given an option upon commissioning to either purchase new, or pay for theirs that they were given as cadets. If they purchase new ones, they hand back the old ones and it is given to the next new incoming cadet. They are not thrown away. Our DS opted to purchase because as a 100 he got a set of hand me downs.

Just wanted to clarify that they too don not get free uniforms. The AF comes a collecting, just at a later date.

2. I have always been told that the prep exists because academically they are not on par with direct admits, and need one more yr to get there.

I know many get scholarships and get into universities. Never stated that they didn't, but that IMPO leads us back to why keep the prep? AFROTC and OCS are cheaper than the prep.

Finally, I am not saying AFROTC could not find 10%, and my bet is they will have to find it since the DoD budget is being cut by 10% this yr. I am saying they have already taken proactive steps by cutting the stipends, combining units, and has not increased the tuition cap since 2008. Think about how much tuition has increased in 5 yrs. A cadet that wants to go OOS or private with a Type 7 will most likely have to convert to a 3 yr Type 2. Even, at that point, 18K is probably not going to cover tuition. Same with book allowance.

They also cancelled ICSP 2 yrs ago for a yr. IOTW, didn't get a scholarship in HS, you wouldn't get one in college.

I am not defending AFROTC. I am saying C400 cadets will be taking @20% stipend pay cut. It use to be 550 per month, now it is 450. They cutting across the board for each yr group.

I would think there is a cut they could make, and that would be the book allowance, which I whole- heartily support if it means saving the prep school.

I am not against the prep school. I am against taking money from the AD educational bennies.

 

[Packer]

I am so sick of hearing from you non-military pukes who never served in the military! Don't know an MOS from an M-16! Here there is a rumor of closing the USAFA Prep School and your talking about your tax dollars being wasted in this school! I never went to the Prep school, but I worked with them. Sure they may send there recruited athletes there to build up there SAT/ACT and GPA. I knew many of Prep schooler's who went on to the AFA and had nice careers. Your talking about your tax dollars being misspent. Why don't you look at other areas where your tax dollars are being misspent like Congress, the Senators, and Obama.
Whats next? Get rid of the Academies altogether! Oh I forgot, Stanford is there to go to. Oh, our DS and DD's don't have 3.99 GPA's and are not on the boxing team. So that school is out.
Yea, this message is harsh! I served with the Army in a far off country in 71. Transferred to the Air force in 80. Spent 4 yrs at the Academy. Yes that's right almost 35 yrs ago. I know what your going to say, "That was 35 yrs ago, times have changed". Yes, but if that was your DD or DS trying to get to the AFA and only got accepted to the Prep school, would you still want it closed. If you said, "Yes" your a liar! I can relate to the former Prep school students, enlisted, officers and civilians who worked there. Why take the dream of some young man or woman away who wants to go to the AFA, but first must go to the Prep school to get accepted. Okay, so only 40% go on to graduate. Now your complaining about your tax dollars being misspent. I am one pissed off Veteran who is sick of your crying about YOUR tax dollars being misspent and putting the blame on the USAFA Prep school.

Well thought out, professional and highly persuasive post. You had me at "pukes".

 

[kinnem]

How about a 10%-20% reduction accross all DOD educational benefits. USAFA, ROTC, OCS, GI Bill, etc. That seems better than closing USAFAPS.

You got to be kidding me. So you're saying lets have tens of thousands or more likely hundreds of thousands suffer so we can save the small number of kids at USAFAPS?

I support the idea and mission of the prep schools. I think they are needed to get some enlisted and minorities ready for USAFA. Don't care about the red shirts. I'm also not crazy about the sequester as it pertains to the military and agree that there are vastly more savings to be had in the entitlement programs. All that being said:

1. There is no way, politically, that one could currently sell making cuts in entitlements until savings have been wrung out of the system elsewhere, including DoD. Maybe someday, someone can say "We've cut all we can elsewhere, it's time to hit entitlements" but not yet.

2. It wouldn't surprise me that USAFAPS is on the block, but I expect more as a negotiating chit just like all the horrors we heard were coming last year as a way to try to dodge the sequester and get it lifted. I would think one expectation is that liberal democrats would be saying that "We cannot close USAFAPS" (or at least that's the expectation). "It's what provides a leg up for our enlisted and beloved minorities". Until the results of the sequester become too painful, no one will look for savings elsewhere.

Just my 2 cents. The system (in this case including USAFAPS) tends to survive. Well, ok, maybe not the healthcare system, but everything else.

 

[aseanag]

aseanag,

1. AFROTC cadets are given an option upon commissioning to either purchase new, or pay for theirs that they were given as cadets. If they purchase new ones, they hand back the old ones and it is given to the next new incoming cadet. They are not thrown away. Our DS opted to purchase because as a 100 he got a set of hand me downs.

Just wanted to clarify that they too don not get free uniforms. The AF comes a collecting, just at a later date.

2. I have always been told that the prep exists because academically they are not on par with direct admits, and need one more yr to get there.

I know many get scholarships and get into universities. Never stated that they didn't, but that IMPO leads us back to why keep the prep? AFROTC and OCS are cheaper than the prep.

Finally, I am not saying AFROTC could not find 10%, and my bet is they will have to find it since the DoD budget is being cut by 10% this yr. I am saying they have already taken proactive steps by cutting the stipends, combining units, and has not increased the tuition cap since 2008. Think about how much tuition has increased in 5 yrs. A cadet that wants to go OOS or private with a Type 7 will most likely have to convert to a 3 yr Type 2. Even, at that point, 18K is probably not going to cover tuition. Same with book allowance.

They also cancelled ICSP 2 yrs ago for a yr. IOTW, didn't get a scholarship in HS, you wouldn't get one in college.

I am not defending AFROTC. I am saying C400 cadets will be taking @20% stipend pay cut. It use to be 550 per month, now it is 450. They cutting across the board for each yr group.

I would think there is a cut they could make, and that would be the book allowance, which I whole- heartily support if it means saving the prep school.

I am not against the prep school. I am against taking money from the AD educational bennies.

I am for keeping all educational benefits in place.

1. AFA cadets upon graduations have to purchase all new uniforms. Academy uniforms are not USAF standards.

2. As you say why keep the prep school, many at the prep school would say why keep ROTC or OCS. I say why not keep them all. I believe they all are important in keeping a culturally diverse AF. The AFA and AFAP have reduce there numbers and expenses also.

 

[LineInTheSand]

2. As you say why keep the prep school, many at the prep school would say why keep ROTC or OCS.

If they're asking that kind of question... maybe they shouldn't be in prep either. Pretty hedy for a group of kids that didn't make it straight in.

I also NEVER understood by USAFA doesn't use the regular Air Force uniform. USCGA does. USNA does. I understand the history at West Point, but the Air Force Academy? Why not?

 

[aseanag]

You got to be kidding me. So you're saying lets have tens of thousands or more likely hundreds of thousands suffer so we can save the small number of kids at USAFAPS?

I support the idea and mission of the prep schools. I think they are needed to get some enlisted and minorities ready for USAFA. Don't care about the red shirts. I'm also not crazy about the sequester as it pertains to the military and agree that there are vastly more savings to be had in the entitlement programs. All that being said:

1. There is no way, politically, that one could currently sell making cuts in entitlements until savings have been wrung out of the system elsewhere, including DoD. Maybe someday, someone can say "We've cut all we can elsewhere, it's time to hit entitlements" but not yet.

2. It wouldn't surprise me that USAFAPS is on the block, but I expect more as a negotiating chit just like all the horrors we heard were coming last year as a way to try to dodge the sequester and get it lifted. I would think one expectation is that liberal democrats would be saying that "We cannot close USAFAPS" (or at least that's the expectation). "It's what provides a leg up for our enlisted and beloved minorities". Until the results of the sequester become too painful, no one will look for savings elsewhere.

Just my 2 cents. The system (in this case including USAFAPS) tends to survive. Well, ok, maybe not the healthcare system, but everything else.

No that is not what I said. I think there should be a reduction in all DOD educational bennies. There will be hundreds denied the ability to attend AFA if the prep school is closed why not reduce cost by 10%. Not sure where you can up with your numbers about the amount to be denied educational benefits if there is a 10% reduction accross all educational benefits. I am sure Gen. Gould and many others believe in the mission of the Prep school and the results.

BTW DS is a 2013 graduate of USAFA. He was a direct admit. Currently attending graduate school, then on to pilot training. I say this because he has many fellow grads in the class of 2013 that were USAFPS graduates. They were great cadets and they make me proud that they were willing to put in 5 years to reach there goal of becoming a USAF officer. The prep trek is not easy and my hat go off to those who see the process thru. They all deserve our support and admirations.

 

[Pima]

aseanag,

Honestly, what is the stipend a C4C gets after paying for their mandated items? Is it more than 2250 per yr?

That is the stipend for AFROTC cadets. It now caps at 450 a month., which until they become a 300 is only while they are in school. If school ends in May, and they return in Sept. They do not get paid.

I am not in any way, shape or form crying woah is them. It is what they signed up for. What they accepted, and are grateful for the stipend given.

I am saying, when we are discussing costs, overall AFROTC and OCS is cheaper.

Now for the prepsters saying why keep AFROTC and OCS. Well it also comes down to age limits IMPO. You can enter the AF via OCS as enlisted member that used TA at the ripe old age of 24. You can get out and use your GI, join AFROTC at 22, and commission at 26. Neither option is available to enlisted members over the age of 23 when it comes to any SA.

Secondly, there is no way ADAF can meet their personnel numbers without those 2 options, ADAF can meet their numbers without the cost of prep.

Honestly, I think we all agree this is truly a theoretical debate, Prep is going to be around when our grandchildren apply IMPO. Come on people...one of the best Gens. and Supe's at the AFA was a prepster. There is value in the program. Had he not gone to prep in 72, who knows, maybe he would have gone Army or Navy or CG.

 

[aseanag]

If they're asking that kind of question... maybe they shouldn't be in prep either. Pretty hedy for a group of kids that didn't make it straight in.

I also NEVER understood by USAFA doesn't use the regular Air Force uniform. USCGA does. USNA does. I understand the history at West Point, but the Air Force Academy? Why not?

LITS not the USAFPrepsters but the USAFAPS supporters. Just like I am sure ROTC cadets are not saying close the prep school, just the ROTC supporters.

Can't answer why AFA doesn't use AF uniform.

 

[MemberLG]

. . . The AFA and AFAP have reduce there numbers and expenses also.

Hard to accomplish - fix and variable cost. Reduction in numbers at AFA and AFAP will not result in corresponding saving in expenses (i.e. 10% reduction in number will not result in 10% saving in expenses). Unless there are deep cuts, support personnel cost will remain similar (i.e. if we reduce AFAP class size by 10%, are we going to cut 10% of instructors?).

 

[Packer]

No that is not what I said. I think there should be a reduction in all DOD educational bennies. There will be hundreds denied the ability to attend AFA if the prep school is closed why not reduce cost by 10%.

Hundreds won't be denied it will just be different hundreds filling those slots. You know, the ones currently being denied.

 

[kinnem]

If they're asking that kind of question... maybe they shouldn't be in prep either. Pretty hedy for a group of kids that didn't make it straight in.

I also NEVER understood by USAFA doesn't use the regular Air Force uniform. USCGA does. USNA does. I understand the history at West Point, but the Air Force Academy? Why not?

I'm sure it's due to roots in Army/West Point. Like I said in an earlier post, the existing system tends to survive.

 

[LineInTheSand]

They all deserve our support and admirations.

No, they don't.

 

[aseanag]

Hard to accomplish - fix and variable cost. Reduction in numbers at AFA and AFAP will not result in corresponding saving in expenses (i.e. 10% reduction in number will not result in 10% saving in expenses). Unless there are deep cuts, support personnel cost will remain similar (i.e. if we reduce AFAP class size by 10%, are we going to cut 10% of instructors?).

Not true. Meals are know served differently to save money. Yes intructors were furloughed during the summer ( they are usually paid ). I believe, not sure cadets now have more responsibilty for cleaning common areas. Travel has been reduced. Civilian staff has been furloughed. Cadet wing has gone from 4500 to a little over 4000. That in it self is a significant savings.

 

[aseanag]

No, they don't.

I disagree! All willing to serve deserve our respect and admiration.

 

[Pima]

xposted with asaenag.

Aseanag,

They were great cadets and they make me proud that they were willing to put in 5 years to reach there goal of becoming a USAF officer.

Many 2nd time applicants also will do 5 yrs., and there are quite a few posters on this board that I have seen apply for a 3rd time while in college and AFROTC.

Granted AFROTC cadets have a more traditional college life, but they do have jobs in ROTC. ROTC is not just show up for PT and LLAB. They have jobs in the det., they also know as they are applying for the 2nd time that they need EC's and many pledge military fraternities, which takes up more time. Plus 80% of scholarship recipients are tech majors, and are taking 19-21 credit hrs. Many come from the 7 SMCs in the nation where they live a military life when it comes to housing. They are mandated to be in the Corps AND ROTC.

They too are not lackluster cadets. I am sure that was not your intention to insinuate that their 1 yr as a prepster is harder than a ROTC cadet at an SMC.

However, we are talking dollars and cents, correct? AFROTC commissions @2300 every yr., and less than 35% are on scholarship. The avg cost for one yr is less than 20K per cadet ON SCHOLARSHIP, now avg it with non-scholarship cadets fro the yr. How much is the avg cost for a prepster?

As you stated many got scholarships, than if you were ADAF, wouldn't you say that due to the higher 2nd time application rate it would be cheaper to close the prep school and give more AFROTC scholarships....the equivalent addition of the prep school size enrollment. I.E. 200 more cadets at 18K (Type 2) plus 250 stipend and 900 for books is cheaper than 200 cadets at the prep...housing, profs, stipend, and books. Oh, let's also remember that AFROTC cadets do not have medical coverage via the AF. Their folks pick up the bill when they go to the Doc in the box on campus.