Last year for USAFAPS?

[Packer]

Not true. Meals are know served differently to save money. Yes intructors were furloughed during the summer ( they are usually paid ). I believe, not sure cadets now have more responsibilty for cleaning common areas. Travel has been reduced. Civilian staff has been furloughed. Cadet wing has gone from 4500 to a little over 4000. That in it self is a significant savings.

I am pretty sure the savings are significant but I bet not proportional. The amortized cost per cadet that USAFA has published is about $400,000. 500 cadets (4500-4000) x $400,000 is $200,000,000. Has the USAFA budget dropped by $200 million? Maybe it has but I doubt it. Would love to see the figures.

 

[aseanag]

I am pretty sure the savings are significant but I bet not proportional. The amortized cost per cadet that USAFA has published is about $400,000. 500 cadets (4500-4000) x $400,000 is $200,000,000. Has the USAFA budget dropped by $200 million? Maybe it has but I doubt it. Would love to see the figures.

I would love to see the figures also and I bet the budget has been reduce by that amount.

 

[Christcorp]

There is also the Presidential nominations that are offered. My only point is that the nomination process eliminated many more potential cadets than any other factor. The nomination process also will allow applicants from non competitative district easier access to an appointment than applicants from very competitative district. That is unfair to applicant with higher qualifications.

That's not 100% accurate. "Districts" (Representatives) are generally set up on a population basis of approximately 650,000. (Don't hold me to the exact number. So, a state like Wyoming with 550,000 people, have 1 representative. If the population was 750,000, there'd be 2 representatives.

So while it may be more difficult for an individual to get a senator's nomination in a highly competitive state, the chances for a house representative nomination is about the same for all states. Now; just because the district around San Antonio has a lot more interest in it for the air force academy than another district, isn't "UNFAIR" for the applicant. This is called "LIFE". Is it unfair that California pays over $4 a gallon for gas? Is it unfair that Wyoming doesn't require any type of vehicle inspections? Is it unfair that Hawaii has 75-80 degree temps every day of the year and North Dakota has their nads shrink up in the winter? If you happen to live near a military base or in a mega-pro military district or state; too bad.

I bring this up, because many people believe that there shouldn't even be MOC nominations. That the academy should be free to select whoever they believe in the most qualified. And if all 1200 for this year's class happens to come from California, Texas, and Florida; then so be it. Well, I am totally against the academy having that much say so. It might be fine for an academy like the coast guard when they don't have a class large enough to have every district and state represented, but that doesn't make that better. Just more practical. And while some might not think it's fair that some qualified individuals get turned down in these highly competitive states; it's equally not as fair for many of the applicants who live in rural states to not have the same academic and athletic opportunities that the larger cities/states have. No; I like the way the law is written in Title 10. Basically; half the class is represented by the states/districts and the other half of the class is determined by the academy. And in reality, most MOC's delegate their decision making to the academies anyway, so they are already deciding on probably close to 80% of the class.

 

[Packer]

I would love to see the figures also and I bet the budget has been reduce by that amount.

That $200,000 mil is over 4 years. So the per year amount would be closer to $50 mil. According to this it may be in that ball park.
http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20110114/NEWS/101140302/AF-Academy-expects-12-percent-budget-cut

 

[LineInTheSand]

I disagree! All willing to serve deserve our respect and admiration.

I understand where you're coming from. My personal opinion, I appreciate someone's willingness to serve, but until they do, they don't have my admiration, or more respect than anyone else. Many are willing to serve. Some do, some don't.

 

[Packer]

That's not 100% accurate. "Districts" (Representatives) are generally set up on a population basis of approximately 650,000. (Don't hold me to the exact number. So, a state like Wyoming with 550,000 people, have 1 representative. If the population was 750,000, there'd be 2 representatives.

So while it may be more difficult for an individual to get a senator's nomination in a highly competitive state, the chances for a house representative nomination is about the same for all states. Now; just because the district around San Antonio has a lot more interest in it for the air force academy than another district, isn't "UNFAIR" for the applicant. This is called "LIFE". Is it unfair that California pays over $4 a gallon for gas? Is it unfair that Wyoming doesn't require any type of vehicle inspections? Is it unfair that Hawaii has 75-80 degree temps every day of the year and North Dakota has their nads shrink up in the winter? If you happen to live near a military base or in a mega-pro military district or state; too bad.

I bring this up, because many people believe that there shouldn't even be MOC nominations. That the academy should be free to select whoever they believe in the most qualified. And if all 1200 for this year's class happens to come from California, Texas, and Florida; then so be it. Well, I am totally against the academy having that much say so. It might be fine for an academy like the coast guard when they don't have a class large enough to have every district and state represented, but that doesn't make that better. Just more practical. And while some might not think it's fair that some qualified individuals get turned down in these highly competitive states; it's equally not as fair for many of the applicants who live in rural states to not have the same academic and athletic opportunities that the larger cities/states have. No; I like the way the law is written in Title 10. Basically; half the class is represented by the states/districts and the other half of the class is determined by the academy. And in reality, most MOC's delegate their decision making to the academies anyway, so they are already deciding on probably close to 80% of the class.

They could get rid of nominations and still accomplish the same geographical diversity. The law could require one admit from every district + 2 for each state (Wyoming still gets 3). Same result but every "qualified" kid could make it to the NWL and have a shot that way. Not going to happen but seems that it would work.

 

[aseanag]

xposted with asaenag.

Aseanag,



Many 2nd time applicants also will do 5 yrs., and there are quite a few posters on this board that I have seen apply for a 3rd time while in college and AFROTC.

Granted AFROTC cadets have a more traditional college life, but they do have jobs in ROTC. ROTC is not just show up for PT and LLAB. They have jobs in the det., they also know as they are applying for the 2nd time that they need EC's and many pledge military fraternities, which takes up more time. Plus 80% of scholarship recipients are tech majors, and are taking 19-21 credit hrs. Many come from the 7 SMCs in the nation where they live a military life when it comes to housing. They are mandated to be in the Corps AND ROTC.

They too are not lackluster cadets. I am sure that was not your intention to insinuate that their 1 yr as a prepster is harder than a ROTC cadet at an SMC.

However, we are talking dollars and cents, correct? AFROTC commissions @2300 every yr., and less than 35% are on scholarship. The avg cost for one yr is less than 20K per cadet ON SCHOLARSHIP, now avg it with non-scholarship cadets fro the yr. How much is the avg cost for a prepster?

As you stated many got scholarships, than if you were ADAF, wouldn't you say that due to the higher 2nd time application rate it would be cheaper to close the prep school and give more AFROTC scholarships....the equivalent addition of the prep school size enrollment. I.E. 200 more cadets at 18K (Type 2) plus 250 stipend and 900 for books is cheaper than 200 cadets at the prep...housing, profs, stipend, and books. Oh, let's also remember that AFROTC cadets do not have medical coverage via the AF. Their folks pick up the bill when they go to the Doc in the box on campus.

Pima you said that ROTC thinks the prep school should be closed. I said the prepers thinks ROTC should be closed. I think neither should be closed. I am not that arrogant to think AFA, ROTC, OCS or the prep school is better than the other.

All avenue to become Officers in the military have there good and bad points. I personally don't believe anyone is better than the other just different and depends on your preference.

I am a strong support of each and every avenue to become an officer. I say we need them all.

 

[Pima]

+1 LITS.

I feel the same way. Thank you for wanting to serve is different than thanking you for serving.

Prepsters can walk away, just like AFROTC contracted cadets after their 1st yr. Actually, they get 2 shots at walking. 1 as a prepster, and 1 as a C4C with no financial burden. AFROTC have 1 yr., and 1 yr alone.

 

[aseanag]

That's not 100% accurate. "Districts" (Representatives) are generally set up on a population basis of approximately 650,000. (Don't hold me to the exact number. So, a state like Wyoming with 550,000 people, have 1 representative. If the population was 750,000, there'd be 2 representatives.

So while it may be more difficult for an individual to get a senator's nomination in a highly competitive state, the chances for a house representative nomination is about the same for all states. Now; just because the district around San Antonio has a lot more interest in it for the air force academy than another district, isn't "UNFAIR" for the applicant. This is called "LIFE". Is it unfair that California pays over $4 a gallon for gas? Is it unfair that Wyoming doesn't require any type of vehicle inspections? Is it unfair that Hawaii has 75-80 degree temps every day of the year and North Dakota has their nads shrink up in the winter? If you happen to live near a military base or in a mega-pro military district or state; too bad.

I bring this up, because many people believe that there shouldn't even be MOC nominations. That the academy should be free to select whoever they believe in the most qualified. And if all 1200 for this year's class happens to come from California, Texas, and Florida; then so be it. Well, I am totally against the academy having that much say so. It might be fine for an academy like the coast guard when they don't have a class large enough to have every district and state represented, but that doesn't make that better. Just more practical. And while some might not think it's fair that some qualified individuals get turned down in these highly competitive states; it's equally not as fair for many of the applicants who live in rural states to not have the same academic and athletic opportunities that the larger cities/states have. No; I like the way the law is written in Title 10. Basically; half the class is represented by the states/districts and the other half of the class is determined by the academy. And in reality, most MOC's delegate their decision making to the academies anyway, so they are already deciding on probably close to 80% of the class.

CC, I agree. My point is that the nomination process does the same to applicants as the Prep school.

 

[LineInTheSand]

That's not 100% accurate. "Districts" (Representatives) are generally set up on a population basis of approximately 650,000. (Don't hold me to the exact number. So, a state like Wyoming with 550,000 people, have 1 representative. If the population was 750,000, there'd be 2 representatives.

So while it may be more difficult for an individual to get a senator's nomination in a highly competitive state, the chances for a house representative nomination is about the same for all states. Now; just because the district around San Antonio has a lot more interest in it for the air force academy than another district, isn't "UNFAIR" for the applicant. This is called "LIFE". Is it unfair that California pays over $4 a gallon for gas? Is it unfair that Wyoming doesn't require any type of vehicle inspections? Is it unfair that Hawaii has 75-80 degree temps every day of the year and North Dakota has their nads shrink up in the winter? If you happen to live near a military base or in a mega-pro military district or state; too bad.

I bring this up, because many people believe that there shouldn't even be MOC nominations. That the academy should be free to select whoever they believe in the most qualified. And if all 1200 for this year's class happens to come from California, Texas, and Florida; then so be it. Well, I am totally against the academy having that much say so. It might be fine for an academy like the coast guard when they don't have a class large enough to have every district and state represented, but that doesn't make that better. Just more practical. And while some might not think it's fair that some qualified individuals get turned down in these highly competitive states; it's equally not as fair for many of the applicants who live in rural states to not have the same academic and athletic opportunities that the larger cities/states have. No; I like the way the law is written in Title 10. Basically; half the class is represented by the states/districts and the other half of the class is determined by the academy. And in reality, most MOC's delegate their decision making to the academies anyway, so they are already deciding on probably close to 80% of the class.

And I would wonder, outloud.... what is the motivation of these members of Congress, most of whom have never served in uniform, and many of whom have very little expert knowledge, what is their drive in nominating academy applicants?

 

[MemberLG]

If they're asking that kind of question... maybe they shouldn't be in prep either. Pretty hedy for a group of kids that didn't make it straight in.

I also NEVER understood by USAFA doesn't use the regular Air Force uniform. USCGA does. USNA does. I understand the history at West Point, but the Air Force Academy? Why not?

For West Point, one practical explanation is not having to fire employees (my best guess at least 30 or more) at the Cadet Store Tailor Shop at West Point, folks that actually make certain cadet uniforms.

 

[aseanag]

+1 LITS.

I feel the same way. Thank you for wanting to serve is different than thanking you for serving.

Prepsters can walk away, just like AFROTC contracted cadets after their 1st yr. Actually, they get 2 shots at walking. 1 as a prepster, and 1 as a C4C with no financial burden. AFROTC have 1 yr., and 1 yr alone.

I was talking about my DS classmates that are now USAFA (P) grads and are now 2nd LT in the AF.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Pima you said that ROTC thinks the prep school should be closed. I said the prepers thinks ROTC should be closed. I think neither should be closed. I am not that arrogant to think AFA, ROTC, OCS or the prep school is better than the other.

All avenue to become Officers in the military have there good and bad points. I personally don't believe anyone is better than the other just different and depends on your preference.

I am a strong support of each and every avenue to become an officer. I say we need them all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but only AFA, ROTC and OCS produce officers, prep school only hopes to produce cadets who will eventually be officers.

 

[LineInTheSand]

For West Point, one practical explanation is not having to fire employees (my best guess at least 30 or more) at the Cadet Store Tailor Shop at West Point, folks that actually make certain cadet uniforms.

Don't get me wrong, they are some snazzy uniforms!

 

[aseanag]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but only AFA, ROTC and OCS produce officers, prep school only hopes to produce cadets who will eventually be officers.

And high schools don't produce officers either but is needed nevertheless. My point is that Prep school is as an important as the rest in producing a strong officers corp.

 

[MemberLG]

And I would wonder, outloud.... what is the motivation of these members of Congress, most of whom have never served in uniform, and many of whom have very little expert knowledge, what is their drive in nominating academy applicants?

Potential votes for them, assuming 30 nominations (I don't know how Merchant Marine nomination works), parents + applicant could yield 90 votes. Plus some nice photos to put in their webpages.

Majority MOCs use a board of "distinguished" citizens (my MOC, mixture SA grads, teachers, regular citizens, and etc.) to make it apolitical.

 

[Pima]

When did I say AFROTC cadets said/thought they should close the prep? Obviously you read it, but like any internet forum things can be mis-construed. I am not about to go back and search my posts to see where you feel I said that.

If I did, than that is my bad. However, honestly, I don't speak for AFROTC. Just as you don't speak for the AFA.

You believe in the prep. I respect that. However, I come from a fiscal cost/benefit analysis approach.

You have stated that all education should be cut. You also state that your DS is doing ED prior to his UPT slot. So let me ask you, wouldn't you say that is a huge waste of money since his AFSC will be pilot?

Why not cancel AFIT or ED to save Prep?

There you go, I have found the dimes to pay for prep! Afterall, your DS could get his Masters using TA. He is not going to need his Masters at UPT, he will be a student for at least 2 yrs. Won't be an FC for at least 6-9 yrs. His job will be a poge (SP?) in the squadron for yrs.

Cost benefit analysis I see no reason at all for AF paying grad school prior to UPT. Please tell me how the cost of your child at Grad school will make him a better pilot. If it is about being a better officer because they have a grad degree, please show me the AFSC code for pilots with a Masters compared to pilots with no Masters. I am not literate in that aspect, but I always thought it came down to Pilot, IP, Heavy/Fighter. All the Masters does is give a promotion edge as an O5. Unless things have changed O4 is masked for promotion regarding Masters. It does give an edge for PME in residence since that is not masked.

Just asking do you believe if from a cost benefit analysis they should offer less ED slots to save the prep school? JMPO, I don't think they should. I think ED slots should be saved over prep.

 

[aseanag]

When did I say AFROTC cadets said/thought they should close the prep? Obviously you read it, but like any internet forum things can be mis-construed. I am not about to go back and search my posts to see where you feel I said that.

If I did, than that is my bad. However, honestly, I don't speak for AFROTC. Just as you don't speak for the AFA.

You believe in the prep. I respect that. However, I come from a fiscal cost/benefit analysis approach.

You have stated that all education should be cut. You also state that your DS is doing ED prior to his UPT slot. So let me ask you, wouldn't you say that is a huge waste of money since his AFSC will be pilot?

Why not cancel AFIT or ED to save Prep?

There you go, I have found the dimes to pay for prep! Afterall, your DS could get his Masters using TA. He is not going to need his Masters at UPT, he will be a student for at least 2 yrs. Won't be an FC for at least 6-9 yrs. His job will be a poge (SP?) in the squadron for yrs.

Pima DS has a full ride scholarship for his Masters. There is no cost to the AF for his education. Not attending AFIT. Private university. Wont they all need a masters degree at some time regardless of AFSC? I believe AFIT is also necessary along with USHSPS, Naval War College, etc.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Pima DS has a full ride scholarship for his Masters. There is no cost to the AF for his education. Not attending AFIT. Private university. Wont they all need a masters degree at some time regardless of AFSC? I believe AFIT is also necessary along with USHSPS, Naval War College, etc.

I'm confused. Full ride not paid for by the Air Force, but active duty.... how?

 

[aseanag]

I'm confused. Full ride not paid for by the Air Force, but active duty.... how?

Scholarship thru the University, must go back to teach at USAFA sometime during his career. AF allowed time to attend with the payback teaching at USAFA.