QNS Letters have started going out

[marciemi]

First of all, I think that the opportunity to apply a second year to any academy, and have a much stronger chance of getting in, is a great positive. My oldest son had wanted USAFA pretty much forever, and his Plan B was strictly in place as a way to reach that goal, no matter what, even if it took an extra year. Luckily it didn't, but his mindset was that he'd apply until he was too old. In the meantime, my youngest son has always wanted MIT. One of the most frustrating things in the process was that optimism is definitely NOT the case for MIT. While for an academy you hear constantly that if you reapply, take classes to parallel plebe year, etc. that you'll have a much better chance the next year, at MIT your only option is to reapply the following year as a transfer student, the odds of which are much lower than getting in as a freshman. Meaning if you applied to get in as a freshman and didn't, you're not getting in as a transfer unless you won a Nobel prize or something in the interim. Most transfer students who are accepted had stellar records and just didn't apply straight from HS. So I find the academies' mindset on this to be much more accommodating if it's what you really want!!

Back to the OP - Buff/MemberLG - have you been told the same on the QNS letters? This hasn't come down in our region yet (and we've gotten a LOT of email and FB updates in the last week or two) so I'm wondering if it's a regional thing or across the board? Just curious so when my outstanding candidates start asking, I know if them not having heard yet is more of a positive or when they would expect to hear.

 

[buff81]

Marciemi - I'll reply on FB.

 

[buff81]

I wish there was a 'clap' smilie.


The candidate with the highest WCS wins.
Who is responsible for their WCS - the candidate.


Does geography play in the decision? In other words, all things being equal (ratios filled etc.), would they choose multiple candidates from same district if their WCS is highest?

I was referring to choosing the vacancy winner off a competitive slate.
I think you are referring to choosing someone off the NWL. Once on the NWL, candidates are ranked according to WCS. Geography does not come into play. So multiple candidates can and do come from the same district.

 

[katydid817]

Scoutpilot – not sure who you think you are other than someone rude and condescending…

“Let's try to show a little maturity about this subject. Statements like "He will do it with or without West Point-with a school that recognizes his value" are baseless, childish, and make me wonder more than a little about whose pride was hurt more.”

Sorry, not baseless or childish and my maturity level is fine . . .

“It would also be great if my dogs would feed themselves and manage my IRA, but alas we live in the stark, cold world of reality.”

What about yours?

 

[CandidateDad16]

I was referring to choosing the vacancy winner off a competitive slate.
I think you are referring to choosing someone off the NWL. Once on the NWL, candidates are ranked according to WCS. Geography does not come into play. So multiple candidates can and do come from the same district.

Thanks for the continued information

 

[cb7893]

i have actually found myself to have become a little bitter towards the selection process and NWL.

The notion of"Go to your college for a year and reapply to USMA..." certainly rubs me the wrong way.

Loyalty is a vital part of leadership. If our DS is not offered an appointment to West Point, you can rest assured he will not be reapplying a year later. He will take the route presented to him and run with it. His goal is to become an officer in the US Armed Forces. He will do it with or without West Point- with a school that recognizes his value.

Sorry to vent, but it's a bit ridiculous to act as if USMA is the only way he can get to where he wants to go. That piece has been a bit of a turn-off in this 2 year vetting process. West Point is a fine institution, but not the only one.

Katy, Scout doesn't need me carrying his water, but I believe he was referring to Flyboy, not you.

 

[scoutpilot]

Scoutpilot – not sure who you think you are other than someone rude and condescending…

“Let's try to show a little maturity about this subject. Statements like "He will do it with or without West Point-with a school that recognizes his value" are baseless, childish, and make me wonder more than a little about whose pride was hurt more.”

Sorry, not baseless or childish and my maturity level is fine . . .

“It would also be great if my dogs would feed themselves and manage my IRA, but alas we live in the stark, cold world of reality.”

What about yours?

I think I'm someone who...

1. Applied to USMA and therefore understands the anxieties and realities of the process.

2. Graduated from USMA out of a class that started with 1169 new cadets (or what folks now think of as a "small class" which was actually the norm for years).

3. Still serves as an officer on active duty.

4. Volunteers his time as a Field Force Representative and helps dozens of qualified candidates every year, some of whom are not admitted despite being stellar young scholar-athletes.

5. Lives in the real world of the military, where we deal everyday with limited opportunities for a large number of great candidates. There are a lot of great folks who miss out on their dreams.

6. Doesn't take kindly to folks who want to point fingers and besmirch the good name of West Point because their young Johnny or Suzy wasn't admitted, claiming that West Point sees no value in their child.

That's who I am.

 

[FlyBoy1993]

Let's try to show a little maturity about this subject. Statements like "He will do it with or without West Point-with a school that recognizes his value" are baseless, childish, and make me wonder more than a little about whose pride was hurt more.

Was my post immature?

I find the stance that " Oh he can apply again next year" to be the problematic outlook. I scoff at the assumption that everyone will put their lives on hold while USMA finds room for them.

 

[scoutpilot]

Was my post immature?

I find the stance that " Oh he can apply again next year" to be the problematic outlook. I scoff at the assumption that everyone will put their lives on hold while USMA finds room for them.

I am troubled by the assumption that attending USMA is some form of right for anyone who applies, and that USMA is under some obligation to make room for anyone. Secondly, I scoff at the assumption that USMA is assuming that folks would put their lives on hold. They're saying "if this is all that will make you happy, the door isn't closed." If you'd prefer the door be closed, you can do that yourself. Many other schools won't even afford you the courtesy of encouraging you to try again.

Yes, the viewpoint you posted was immature.

 

[dunninla]

i have actually found myself to have become a little bitter towards the selection process and NWL.

That is only natural, human. Take this as an opportunity to let the dust settle, and reconsider what is important in life.

The notion of"Go to your college for a year and reapply to USMA..." certainly rubs me the wrong way.

several have responded that elite civilian colleges don't offer near this much opportunity to adjust to feedback and reapply.

Loyalty is a vital part of leadership. If our DS is not offered an appointment to West Point, you can rest assured he will not be reapplying a year later. He will take the route presented to him and run with it.

How sure are you of what HE wants? Will you direct him, or allow him to chart his own course after receiving advice from several relevant sources?

His goal is to become an officer in the US Armed Forces. He will do it with or without West Point- with a school that recognizes his value.

As others have posted, no gaining an appointment does not mean WP does not recognize his value. As pointed out, the WCS is not the only consideration... geography and diversity play a role, as does politics, and some luck as well with regard to slate vacancies, and West Point Admissions serves at the pleasure of Congress in many of these selection criteria.

Sorry to vent, but it's a bit ridiculous to act as if USMA is the only way he can get to where he wants to go. That piece has been a bit of a turn-off in this 2 year vetting process. West Point is a fine institution, but not the only one.

Venting is allowed, after all this is an internet discussion board. I would have preferred that Scout Pilot had not responded exactly as he did, but that's what makes this world a great place... each of us in unique in our perspective and approach. I say vent, work it out, grow from it, and learn to be a mature counselor to your son.

 

[katydid817]

7.

Scoutpilot – your comments say it all . . .

“Did someone get a letter from West Point that read "Your kid is worthless and you can take this application and cram it in your cramhole?" I didn't think so. So grow up a bit, huh?”

Enough said.

 

[FlyBoy1993]

Thank you BOTH for your responses.

To answer some of the questions:

1. If not USMA, he will attend a SMC, so he will still have the military element in his education, although not directly tied to his entire academic coursework. He has already accepted his ROTC scholarship. The SMC was a very close 2nd favorite on his list of schools, with some non-military alums in our family already.

2. HE is the one driving his development and career path. We are there to support and counsel him, with the need for direction more associated with cleaning his room versus what his long term goals are. The reason I stated that he would not reapply is that I know what he has put into the whole process. He's also wired like I am- If someone turns you down and there's another avenue to get you there, why keep bothering? If I wasn't good enough then, what changed? I will stick with the one that offered me the chance to get there. Loyalty matters. There are also the family ties to the SMC.

3. I, too, appreciate the candid conversation and feedback.

4. Lastly, he is still on the NWL, so this very discussion may all be for naught with regard to his future.

 

[BigNick]

Very emotional subject. Let me provide you some insights based on my experience which includes:
1. Graduate of West Point
2. Taught math 4 years an Assistant Professor at West Point
3. Was on the Admissions Committee for two years
4. Served over 30 years of active duty
5. Have son in the Class of 2015

No Admissions process or selection process is perfect. However, the people in the admissions process are great people who are totally dedicated to selecting the very best people to attend West Point. They study, debate, argue, agonize, lose sleep, and even pray over their admissions choices and decisions. I believe they do a GREAT (not perfect) job of picking the best people. However, they are limited by:
1. MOCs who choose their vacancy winners. Of course the MOC choice must be fully qualified but there could be (probably are) other candidates with higher scores.
2. Title 10 legal requirements - law made by Congress. Explained in much detail by Buff81 in the Forum.
3. Diversity target selections. Right or wrong in our society and in the Army, diversity is seen as making the class and the Army better. This is debatable, but it is a fact of life in our "politically correct" society. Clearly, some candidates with higher qualifications are “passed over” to make room for these candidates. If you disagree with this process, write your MOC or the Department of the Army and NOT West Point.
4. Candidates completing their applications correctly and in a timely manner. Sometimes great candidates submit their final papers so late that the class is mostly filled.

The fact is that the top schools in the U.S. (Army, Navy, AFA, Ivy League schools, MIT, Stanford, etc. etc.) have limited slots and routinely turn away MANY excellent students.
BOTTOM LINE: It is up to you to convince the MOC that you deserve to be his vacancy winner – to get better grades than other candidates – have higher SAT scores -do more push-ups and pull-ups – to get leadership positions in school- to be successful in sports -etc etc. It is a competitive world. When your son or daughter enters the Army IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE VERY COMPETITIVE for promotions, best assignments etc.
It is very natural and normal for you to believe that your son or daughter is great – and they probably are – but do not blame West Point if they do not get an offer. Either go to Plan B or improve your record and try again next year. Good luck to all the people on the NWL – I wish all of you would get an offer but-----

 

[FlyBoy1993]

I hope he gets an offer too.

I hope you don't think 2 years into the application process and 18 years into our DS's life, we don't understand how competitive it is for talent.

That being said, it is still very presumptive to tell someone after all of this, ' Hey, we know you put everything into this, but it wasn't quite enough. Try again next year."

At that point, the game changes on both sides of the equation. That's all I am saying.

 

[jagabiti]

Nothing in the mail yet for DS. He is on 4year ROTC to a great school and loves it. Somehow his MOC nomination Is not showing up and MOC isn't returning DS's calls. DS has the phone message about his nomination so he is confused as to what's up with that. He has even sent the academy emails with nothing returned. Time is running out for it to show up in his file. Hey is could be worst.... Having a QNS is so much better then the ones that didn't get past the first part or second part of the application. We are very proud of DS even if he is Not picked of the list. He is going to graduate college as a second LT in the Army and serve his country. The end is still the same. Let's celebrate how much our kids have done to get this far. QNS means they are the best there is but just not a space for them!

 

[Mongo]

3. Diversity target selections. Right or wrong in our society and in the Army, diversity is seen as making the class and the Army better. This is debatable, but it is a fact of life in our "politically correct" society. Clearly, some candidates with higher qualifications are “passed over” to make room for these candidates.

Two questions. Would passing over the more qualified candidate in favor of a diversity goal not be in violation of Title 10? Also, to increase ones WCS based solely on race, color, or gender, not be in violation of equal rights laws?

 

[Luigi59]

Two questions. Would passing over the more qualified candidate in favor of a diversity goal not be in violation of Title 10? Also, to increase ones WCS based solely on race, color, or gender, not be in violation of equal rights laws?

I would think since USNA routinely practices it (according to all the FOIA documents pried from them last year) it would not be a problem for WP to do likewise.

 

[Mongo]

I would think since USNA routinely practices it (according to all the FOIA documents pried from them last year) it would not be a problem for WP to do likewise.

The public's perception of FOIA raw data and actual procedures are not necessarily the same. However, this IS a WP thread.

 

[marciemi]

That being said, it is still very presumptive to tell someone after all of this, ' Hey, we know you put everything into this, but it wasn't quite enough. Try again next year."

I just really don't see how this is presumptive. Nearly every Ivy or top-ranked school tells the first part of it to around 90% of their applicants every year. I see the "Try again next year" as just an added bonus. As I said earlier, it's great to have that opportunity if you REALLY want WP. If you don't and plan B works out better for you - great! It's just nice to know that that option is still there.

Edited to add: I'm also a bit perplexed by the comments along the line "if West Point didn't think I'm good enough, then I'll go somewhere that does" (or variations on this). The WP admissions process is as objective as it can be (within the structures of nominations, etc.) - it's not just "oh, hey, we didn't like you." It's not that they didn't THINK you were good enough - by this year's standards, compared to the rest of 2016 applicants, the bottom line for QNS candidates is simply that they WEREN'T, no matter how hard they tried or how much effort they put into it.

 

[scoutpilot]

Edited to add: I'm also a bit perplexed by the comments along the line "if West Point didn't think I'm good enough, then I'll go somewhere that does" (or variations on this). The WP admissions process is as objective as it can be (within the structures of nominations, etc.) - it's not just "oh, hey, we didn't like you." It's not that they didn't THINK you were good enough - by this year's standards, compared to the rest of 2016 applicants, the bottom line for QNS candidates is simply that they WEREN'T, no matter how hard they tried or how much effort they put into it.

Yes! We have a winner!

This is not some evil slight against your kid. WP has metrics laid out for how they score candidates. If someone gets in over your child, it means that they had done more and/or done it better. It's as simple as that. It's not as though people are picked at random off the NWL. The class is X size, which means only Y candidates can come off the NWL. If your child isn't above the cutoff line for Y, then that's that and it's on NO ONE but your child. His WCS is completely determined by his actions...SAT/ACT, CFA, etc.

That being said, it is still very presumptive to tell someone after all of this, ' Hey, we know you put everything into this, but it wasn't quite enough. Try again next year."

At that point, the game changes on both sides of the equation. That's all I am saying.

No, all you're saying is that you think your child worked hard enough on THE PROCESS that he deserves admission (i.e. "put everything into this"). The process isn't the point. The whole candidate is the point.

Acting as though WP is somehow insulting your child by not thinking he's good enough is illogical. It's like saying someone is insulting a Cadillac by thinking a Rolls Royce is better. Sure, someone worked very hard to make both and both represent someone's best effort. But the Rolls is better by most objective metrics you want to use. The same principle applies to candidates. Your child may have given his best. That doesn't mean someone else isn't better for WP based on the WCS metrics.

I still have no idea why you think it's presumptive. At this point, it strikes me as sour grapes. Would you be this bitter if he'd applied to Harvard and said "No, you're not accepted" and that was it? Is outright rejection better in your mind than the chance to try again?

If you want to blame someone, blame the competition.