Luigi59
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Total demerits probably don't matter when one of the offenses by itself is enough to be disenrolled.
Update on disenrollment from NROTC
- Thread starter Gojira
- Start date
Total demerits probably don't matter when one of the offenses by itself is enough to be disenrolled.
Pima
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I agree with Luigi, that one action (girlfriend) would be enough to be dis-enrolled. Unlike gojira's DS you just can't tell me after 3+ yrs at the AFA, he didn't realize this was a no-no. Posters on that thread stated they were told just this yr that this was a No No multiple times.
I feel for his parents, and for him, but as it has been said here many times on multiple threads, read the fine print. The appointment, scholarship, and contracting are tilted in the military's favor regarding the ability to void the contract. It is not tilted in the cadet/mids favor.
As Gojira has stated the scholarship looks so enticing that on the YIPPEE Day I got it, you quickly sign the paperwork and move forward. Very rarely does anyone read the fine print, afterall nobody believes that they will not be commissioning 4 yrs later. Nobody thinks that in 4 yrs they could be owing a 6 figure college debt and not in the military.
I feel for his parents, and for him, but as it has been said here many times on multiple threads, read the fine print. The appointment, scholarship, and contracting are tilted in the military's favor regarding the ability to void the contract. It is not tilted in the cadet/mids favor.
As Gojira has stated the scholarship looks so enticing that on the YIPPEE Day I got it, you quickly sign the paperwork and move forward. Very rarely does anyone read the fine print, afterall nobody believes that they will not be commissioning 4 yrs later. Nobody thinks that in 4 yrs they could be owing a 6 figure college debt and not in the military.
I don't think that was fine print. I am pretty sure that was in large font bold. I really feel for the parent but not so much the cadet.
Agreed....total demerits by themselves probably don't matter when you commit an offense that by itself is enough to get you disenrolled. Is there any flexibility on what the repercussions for a sleep over are? If so then a cadet with 10 demerits might be treated differently than one with 500 demerits. I would "assume" that a cadet with a huge number of demerits is someone whose AOC is just looking for a reason to get rid of before commissioning even if it is just 22 days away. Just my opinion......
NorwichDad
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I keep thinking of the oath
as I read these two threads on disenrollment,. Now DS isnt perfect and he could also make a mistake but I keep thinking about the oath.
I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.
as I read these two threads on disenrollment,. Now DS isnt perfect and he could also make a mistake but I keep thinking about the oath.
I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.
I do not understand your point, NorwichDad.
Do you believe these two young men would not uphold their oath? I suppose you could say my son did not faithfully get on the scale every day to see he was over his weight standards. His clothes fit, so he didn't think anything was out of ordinary.
You could say by sneaking a girl into a room that this other young man didn't "well and faithfully" uphold his oath. Most of us would call that a youthful indiscretion, but most of us do not attend a SA, either.
I know that these young men would be willing to defend our country and even give up their lives in that process.
They did made mistakes that they will be paying for a very long time.
Do you believe these two young men would not uphold their oath? I suppose you could say my son did not faithfully get on the scale every day to see he was over his weight standards. His clothes fit, so he didn't think anything was out of ordinary.
You could say by sneaking a girl into a room that this other young man didn't "well and faithfully" uphold his oath. Most of us would call that a youthful indiscretion, but most of us do not attend a SA, either.
I know that these young men would be willing to defend our country and even give up their lives in that process.
They did made mistakes that they will be paying for a very long time.
NorwichDad
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Sorry, not with your son. I do have some issues with the AFA cadet. Your son was not warned, lost paperwork. Did not mean to confuse.
While this is very likely true about your son, how can you know for certain that it also applies to the USAFA cadet?
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I'm not trying to be harsh here but, frankly, yes.
Gojira, this isn't directed at you, but more at prospective cadets/mids who are shocked at this for whatever reason:
Your sole job as a MIDN is not to graduate college. It's to ensure that you are eligible to commission and hold up your end of the scholarship (or SA attendance) bargain: 4-5+ years of active service. You have not been given an ROTC scholarship or SA appointment because the government thinks its nice you want to go to college. You are an investment.
That requires a lot more than just having a 2.0, that means doing your absolute best physically, morally, mentally, and, I would argue, at leadership as well (at least at USNA "leadership drops" aren't really a thing).
A big part of that is initiative. Officers are supposed to be proactive, and "I didn't know that was a rule" doesn't go over well. It's your job to know. Obviously there were issues with Gojira's son's chain of command and a good one probably would have seen that he had an issue and addressed it before it became a factor precluding commissioning, but at six weeks away from becoming an Ensign it's the mid's responsibility to know that they've dotted the "i" and crossed the "t."
(Apologies for any typos, I'm iPhoneing it today)
Gojira, this isn't directed at you, but more at prospective cadets/mids who are shocked at this for whatever reason:
Your sole job as a MIDN is not to graduate college. It's to ensure that you are eligible to commission and hold up your end of the scholarship (or SA attendance) bargain: 4-5+ years of active service. You have not been given an ROTC scholarship or SA appointment because the government thinks its nice you want to go to college. You are an investment.
That requires a lot more than just having a 2.0, that means doing your absolute best physically, morally, mentally, and, I would argue, at leadership as well (at least at USNA "leadership drops" aren't really a thing).
A big part of that is initiative. Officers are supposed to be proactive, and "I didn't know that was a rule" doesn't go over well. It's your job to know. Obviously there were issues with Gojira's son's chain of command and a good one probably would have seen that he had an issue and addressed it before it became a factor precluding commissioning, but at six weeks away from becoming an Ensign it's the mid's responsibility to know that they've dotted the "i" and crossed the "t."
(Apologies for any typos, I'm iPhoneing it today)
Another disenrollment story....
I'm sorry to hijack this thread but it seems to be the suitable place to post.
Gojira,
I've been following your posts regarding the disenrollment of your DS and am very grateful to have found you and deeply sorry for the unfortunate circumstance your DS had to go through. Just your posts alone have helped me deal with this dark moment and know that we are not alone. Thank you!
I pray you and your DS are well and that you both have found silver linings since his disenrollment. I can't imagine what the past year has been for you & your DS but I am finding strength knowing that "things will get better."
Since we are also in the preliminary stages of the investigation for disenrollment, I don't want to reveal too many details here just yet except that our situation is extremely similar to your DS.
I am reaching out in hopes you can help us prepare for what is to come, specifically what I, as his mother, can do or say to help him go through this. How long does the investigation take? How long did he get the notice to pay back the loan? How was he able to extend his payment obligation from 3 yrs to 10 yrs? When did he have to start making the payments? Any other advise you would have for this mother with a heavy heart is greatly appreciated.
Feel free to privately message me. Unfortunately, I am new here and am not allowed to PM until I've completed 5 posts.
P.S. Without revealing the branch, is there a difference in the investigation process within each branch? In other words, does someone have a better chance of not getting disenrolled in one branch vs another?
Again, sorry for the lack of details. I just want to protect my DS during this process.
Thank you!
I'm sorry to hijack this thread but it seems to be the suitable place to post.
Gojira,
I've been following your posts regarding the disenrollment of your DS and am very grateful to have found you and deeply sorry for the unfortunate circumstance your DS had to go through. Just your posts alone have helped me deal with this dark moment and know that we are not alone. Thank you!
I pray you and your DS are well and that you both have found silver linings since his disenrollment. I can't imagine what the past year has been for you & your DS but I am finding strength knowing that "things will get better."
Since we are also in the preliminary stages of the investigation for disenrollment, I don't want to reveal too many details here just yet except that our situation is extremely similar to your DS.
I am reaching out in hopes you can help us prepare for what is to come, specifically what I, as his mother, can do or say to help him go through this. How long does the investigation take? How long did he get the notice to pay back the loan? How was he able to extend his payment obligation from 3 yrs to 10 yrs? When did he have to start making the payments? Any other advise you would have for this mother with a heavy heart is greatly appreciated.
Feel free to privately message me. Unfortunately, I am new here and am not allowed to PM until I've completed 5 posts.
P.S. Without revealing the branch, is there a difference in the investigation process within each branch? In other words, does someone have a better chance of not getting disenrolled in one branch vs another?
Again, sorry for the lack of details. I just want to protect my DS during this process.
Thank you!
Without knowing what branch of ROTC it is hard to give much information.
A lot will depend on the reason for disenrollment. The Army has more options, Active Duty Enlistment and possible National Guard Enlistment though rare.
Has enlistment been offered as an option or is it on the table at all?
What year in the program is your son?
A lot will depend on the reason for disenrollment. The Army has more options, Active Duty Enlistment and possible National Guard Enlistment though rare.
Has enlistment been offered as an option or is it on the table at all?
What year in the program is your son?
Cotton&Alligators
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This is one of the best threads on the board. Imho a must read for every parent. This thread has inspired me to counsel with my son and his choice between ROTC and SA's why ? My son is a six foot two 238 pounder who was an offensive lineman this past year in HS. He regularly went up against 300 plus defensive lineman and at his heaviest was 255 lbs. So he has dropped to 238 and wants to lose more weight but he bench's 300 lbs. He may never see 210 lbs again. This is something I should have paid greater attention to. I may even suggest he go to A&M and if he isn't where he should be weight wise to drop ROTC after first year yet still stay in C&C's. I'm going to investigate the height weight throughly.
Cotton & Alligators,
Muscle weighs more than fat. My kid spent a lot of time in gym his last year - he wasn't fat. He was out of compliance.
Glad this has been helpful info. That is why I initially posted it two years ago. Hate for others to go through what our son went through if they could avoid it!
Muscle weighs more than fat. My kid spent a lot of time in gym his last year - he wasn't fat. He was out of compliance.
Glad this has been helpful info. That is why I initially posted it two years ago. Hate for others to go through what our son went through if they could avoid it!
As a heavier cadet and later a heavier Army officer for my entire career as a soldier I can say... Don't enter the military exceeding the weight standard! It isn't worth the heart ache and stress. I was able to make the tape each time, but that's really not good enough for most of the slimmer commanders. I was always the fat kid.
So, word to the wise... If you are not comfortably under the height / weight max... don't contract.... unless you have fantastic "six pack" abs. If you do, you'll pass everything.
Oh, and I do appreciate that muscle is heavier than fat. Actually, if you are heavy (in the Army) and you don't make the weight or tape test, the Army doctor can actually give you the dunk test to get a REAL body fat % reading. However, it normally shows a higher % than the tape test (which is horribly, horribly flawed).
So, word to the wise... If you are not comfortably under the height / weight max... don't contract.... unless you have fantastic "six pack" abs. If you do, you'll pass everything.
Oh, and I do appreciate that muscle is heavier than fat. Actually, if you are heavy (in the Army) and you don't make the weight or tape test, the Army doctor can actually give you the dunk test to get a REAL body fat % reading. However, it normally shows a higher % than the tape test (which is horribly, horribly flawed).
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Cotton&Alligators
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Gojira, I totally understand your son isn't fat. My son isn't either. But I just looked up height and height and my son does not qualify if I go by the chart I read on a Google search. I may recommend he back out of the process.
They wouldn't do dunk test for Navy ROTC.
Looking back to son's weight when he started, to end of his ROTC experience- there is no way I would have advised him that path. His weight was too close for comfort the minute he got his scholarship.
He was far more fit as a senior in college than in high school. All that PT and additional training paid off. If he was a skinnier kid going in, it would have been okay. But he was not.
The tape measure test is ridiculous. And means little.
Looking back to son's weight when he started, to end of his ROTC experience- there is no way I would have advised him that path. His weight was too close for comfort the minute he got his scholarship.
He was far more fit as a senior in college than in high school. All that PT and additional training paid off. If he was a skinnier kid going in, it would have been okay. But he was not.
The tape measure test is ridiculous. And means little.
The height/weight and body fat calculations vary so much depending on body type. The system the military uses is far from perfect, there are so many extremely fit soldiers that miss the mark because of these imperfect systems of measuring body fat.
It's hard to tell if someone is going to have issues unless you actually see what body type they have, simply postin weights doesn't always tell the whole story.
Granted, if you are over weight by 20lbs or more it is a concern that should be taken into consideration when joining ROTC.
Height seems to have a lot to do with it, taller cadets can carry the extra weight better, most of the time. Cadets under 6 ft that are over weight seem to have the greatest issue. My older son is always just a few lbs under the Max, he is 6-4+, to look at him you would consider him slim, wears a 34 waist, he works out regularly and could probably wash his clothes on his stomach, but he is still just a few lbs shy of the Max.
Had the pleasure of working with a couple Pararescue a while ago, some of these guys looked like they just stepped out of the WWE Ring, made me wonder how they ever passed the height/weight, some of these guys had to be 6-3 240lbs, although they did carry it well.
The military really needs to come up with a better way to measure height/weight body fat percentages.
It's hard to tell if someone is going to have issues unless you actually see what body type they have, simply postin weights doesn't always tell the whole story.
Granted, if you are over weight by 20lbs or more it is a concern that should be taken into consideration when joining ROTC.
Height seems to have a lot to do with it, taller cadets can carry the extra weight better, most of the time. Cadets under 6 ft that are over weight seem to have the greatest issue. My older son is always just a few lbs under the Max, he is 6-4+, to look at him you would consider him slim, wears a 34 waist, he works out regularly and could probably wash his clothes on his stomach, but he is still just a few lbs shy of the Max.
Had the pleasure of working with a couple Pararescue a while ago, some of these guys looked like they just stepped out of the WWE Ring, made me wonder how they ever passed the height/weight, some of these guys had to be 6-3 240lbs, although they did carry it well.
The military really needs to come up with a better way to measure height/weight body fat percentages.
Moosestache
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My son is 6'2" and 210, ex oline man in high school and college and has to work to stay at 210. His senior year in high school he was 275 down to about 250 his freshman year in college, and he then decided to transfer and join usaf rotc, with no more football. He worked his butt off to get down to 210, and still has to work to keep at that level. He did get a talk from his commander sophomore year about keeping his weight down but they didn't give him any trouble at all at Field Training. My son is non scholarship so there was never a pay back the money concern, but it is something he is going to have to deal with, and paying back that money sounds like a huge issue for lots of people. Good luck!!