US Air Force Academy brawl injures 23

Discussion in 'Air Force Academy - USAFA' started by Polaris, Oct 31, 2012.

  1. Polaris

    Polaris Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    US Air Force Academy brawl injures 23
    Oct 31, 2012 5:24 PM EDT
    A U.S. Air Force commander says 23 cadets were injured in a brawl during an unofficial ritual marking the first snowfall of the season.

    Brig. Gen. Dana Born says in an internal email that cadets needed treatment for injuries including a human bite in the Oct. 25 brawl.

    The email was provided to The Associated Press and other media outlets Wednesday.

    Academy spokesman John Bryant says the email is authentic. He says the academy will release a statement later Wednesday.

    Details of the ritual were unclear. It wasn't immediately known if any cadets were disciplined.
     
  2. Polaris

    Polaris Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    The ritual is called "First Shirt/First Snow" and involves freshmen trying to throw cadet first sergeants — known as first shirts — into the snow.

    "This ritual has devolved to become increasingly violent, with significant numbers of cadets requiring medical care over the past two years," Born wrote in her email.

    "What used to be (freshmen) throwing the first shirt into the snow has turned into a brawl between upperclassmen defending the first sergeant and the (freshmen) trying to capture the first sergeant."
     
  3. kdc246

    kdc246 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    568
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is the point of the post? Hall brawls and traditions like this occur at USAFA. Some cadets just went to far this time. If you read the WHOLE article, it was pointed out that many cadet squadrons/cadets did not take this to the extreme.
     
  4. fencersmother

    fencersmother Founding Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,580
    Likes Received:
    800
    I do remember some minor bru haha going on some years ago for this event but "human bites?" Um, to this mother's mind, that would cross the line.
     
  5. raimius

    raimius USAFA Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    273
    Rumor has it the bite was someone accidentally flailing into someone else's face.

    It seems another tradition may die a safety/media related death. :frown:
     
  6. fencersmother

    fencersmother Founding Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,580
    Likes Received:
    800
    Face meets arm is quite different than dog bites man. If that's the case, the powers that be might want to chillax (see how hip I am?).
     
  7. DevilDog

    DevilDog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2008
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    48
    These kids are going to be involved in things that make a hall brawls or 1st snow look like a picnic. They are supposed to be learning to become warriors. This is tradition. I don't know a better way to say this, but if they can't handle something like this, they should have gone somewhere else. Our military is all about tradition, that is what makes the Marine Corps great. If this is a USAFA tradition then as far as I am concerned, carry on.
     
  8. Dad

    Dad Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    57
    "[General] Born (Dean of Students) indicated that while [General] Lengyel (Commandant of cadets) found the brawl unacceptable, he might be amenable to allowing cadets to keep some version of the tradition if they presented him a proposal for how it could be executed with “good order and discipline and proper risk management.”" Sounds like they are going to 'work it out' in order to continue the tradition. The cadets will figure this one out.

    http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/10/air-force-23-cadets-injured-academy-brawl-103112w/
     
  9. DevilDog

    DevilDog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2008
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    48
    Isn't Lengyel AFROTC, how would he understand USAFA tradition.
     
  10. Dad

    Dad Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    57
    AFROTC or USAFA, it doesn't matter. They don't make just anyone a general officer. Besides, this has more to do with risk management than tradition. Lengyel is smart enough to be aware that the institution has traditions and is willing to work with the CW to make sure they reduce the number of injuries in order to keep the tradition. Again, this was a MINORITY of cadets taking things too far. Lengyel is NOT ending the tradition; he is working to make it safer for the cadets.
     
  11. DevilDog

    DevilDog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2008
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    48
    No one said he was ending it, I said if he is AFROTC, he how would he know about the traditions at USAFA? That would be like a USAFA Grad taking over the Corps of Cadets at VT or A&M, do you really expect them to know the traditions at those schools?
     
  12. Dad

    Dad Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    57
    Gotcha. However, I never attended USAFA and I kind of understand what FS/FS is as well as 100's night, fountain jumping, and Recognition. I believe that the Commadant of Cadets is intelligent enough to educate himself (or at least surround himself with people in the know) about the traditions at USAFA. My point is that he CAN LEARN about the traditions even though he did not experience them first hand.
     
  13. buffalo

    buffalo USAFA 2013

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2008
    Messages:
    780
    Likes Received:
    60
    In fairness to BGen Lengyel, he is surrounded by plenty of grads who are perfectly capable of advising him. First Shirt First Snow, and most other traditions are not so radically complicated that they can not be understood by someone who did not personally take part.
     
  14. Blue&SilverBear

    Blue&SilverBear USAFA Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    22
    Worse... he's an aggie.

    Honestly, you have to step back and look at what happened the last time a "SMC" (shiny fancy ROTC!) grad was in a flag grade leadership position at USAFA. That was Citadel grad superintendent Lt Gen Rosa. What happened? SERE and Recognition disappeared overnight. The "Bring Me Men..." letters hidden away in a basement. Three enduring, defining Academy experiences - gone.

    Thankfully we had strong leadership in Lt Gen Regni to bring parts of them back (2009 - Earned Not Issued!). Not to say he was faultless (see the impending glass pyramid further destroying an outstanding piece of landscape architecture)... but he UNDERSTOOD the important traditions that make us different and tie our classes together through common experiences.

    In the grand scheme of things this is a really minor tradition, but it's one of the few enduring ones. It has no "training" objective, but that's why it's great. It was a natural, organic tradition passed from Cadet to Cadet. We need leadership that understands our Cadets and what their lives and traditions are.

    Did this get out of hand? Probably. But I saw worse injuries during less "violent" traditions. I saw worse fighting after nights at Back East and O'Malley's, and those fights were not about anger, they were just for fun. We teach these kids boxing and two courses in unarmed combat. We celebrate the Wing Open, championship Hockey team, and (this year) mediocre Football team. We can't pretend there is no place for minor "violence" in Cadet life.

    Food for thought:
    “Midshipmen and cadets remain stronger and more aggressive than their male counterparts at civilian schools. They eagerly play sports such as rugby, boxing, karate, lacrosse, and football. They drive fast cars, usually sports cars. They play hard. They drink hard. They are physical, often abusive among each other. They are not trying to prove their manhood: they are celebrating their masculinity. They are competitive, often vulgar, and tough, and every citizen who may someday send a friend or relative into war should rejoice, because combat is competitive, vulgar, and tough, and they will be leading men in combat.” - Senator Jim Webb, USNA grad, Vietnam USMC vet, former SECNAV


    Harumph harumph, get off my lawn, Beat Army
    B&SB, Class of 2009 (Back when it was hard...)
     
  15. AHS74

    AHS74 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2010
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    3
    I was under the impression this was in the "winked at" stress reliever category. This is the time in the semester stress is highest, many GR's etc. Hopefully it can continue, in some form, with some guidelines.
     
  16. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    8,756
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Biting is not going to help their "warrior" image around the academies. :wink:
     
  17. MN-Dad-2016

    MN-Dad-2016 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2012
    Messages:
    440
    Likes Received:
    137
    +1:thumb:

    We talked with our DS this weekend and he told us about the injuries. My DS had a blast as he grew closer to his wing and blew off some much needed steam.

    The correct approach is to dial is back just a little. I'm very sure that is exactly what will happen next year.
     
    RogersCO'19 likes this.
  18. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    8,756
    Likes Received:
    1,005
    Why do I feel like I saw that something like quote in Presidents Pway (if that's what it was called) at CGA, but attributed to some pre-Kennedy president? Maybe it is Senator Jim Webb's quote I'm thinking of.
     
  19. Jarhead

    Jarhead Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok. No bitting men. Carry on!
     
  20. Dad

    Dad Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,133
    Likes Received:
    57
    Bitting?
     

Share This Page