Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

[FalconsRock]

What recourse does my kid have if he/she is mistreated, etc. etc. etc.? Will he/she be too intimidated by the fear of retribution to stand up and say something? Is there anything in place to protect my kid from retribution if he/she speaks up?

Momba, I can certainly understand your questions and can speak to them directly as I experienced such a situation personally. As a 20 year old, I enlisted in the Navy and the day before my swearing in my recruiter invited me to his apartment for a going away dinner. I thought nothing of it and went because I thought it would look bad if I declined. I will spare you details, but he supplied wine which I only sipped to be polite (as I didn't drink, not to mention it was illegal) and I stayed for dinner. After dinner he was very inappropriate and when I tried to leave he was forceful and threatened to make things bad for me at boot camp. I immediately pushed him away and left. I told my mother as it made me extremely uncomfortable and she was going to call the "Navy" and report the guy. I begged her not to because I was very afraid it would ruin things for me. I really believed that he could make my life and perhaps my career miserable and was afraid I would be prevented from going to the school I was promised. In hindsight, I wish I had let my mom call as I am sure I was not the first nor the last to fall prey to his advances. So, even as a 20 year old, I was not as wise. His behavior should have been reported, but fear of retaliation is real. That was over 30 years ago and times have changed. I do believe that the military is more aware of such things and there are mechanisms for the cadets and anyone in the military to speak out about any true mistreatment/inappropriate behavior. But I can guarantee, there is always that fear of retaliation in the back of ones mind, especially one who is new to the military and does not know all the ropes. About 5 years later, I ran into that same recruiter and I was much wiser and confident. He recognized me and had some smart remark and I was able to tell him that if I knew then what I know now, I would have reported him because I learned that I really had all the power and he had none. His career would have been toast and he knew it.

With that said, the best advice we can give DS/DD if they are confronted with inappropriate or illegal behavior is to be confident in themselves and always speak the truth. They can seek counsel with the Chaplain and if necessary, use their chain of command to bring the issue to light. Notice I say inappropriate or illegal; that does not mean that every time they get a little annoyed they should make it an issue. They need to be tough and learn to use good judgement. I am certain that life in the AFA will shape that confidence and as they grow and mature they will be able to discern when they need to act and when they just need to suck it up. Lastly, as parents, WE NEED to have confidence that they can learn to handle it and then LET THEM.

 

[Christcorp]

Not to detract from anything said or posted here. It is all important, necessary, and should be discussed.

But I have to comment on something I've mentioned in previous posts. The difference between Academy Forums with applicants, cadets, parents, etc. and forums for active duty military, applicants, parents, etc.

There are definitely forums and family groups for enlisted/officer active duty military, but the personality is so different. I spend a bit of time on these forums. Mainly as a lurker. But you can see the personality difference. The basic impression is: My son/daughter is grown up and has JOINED the military. Questions and topics evolve from this premise.

Academy forums still tend to have the personality of potential College Students and parents of College Students. I am not dogging anyone here posting. Don't take it personally. The academies go out of their way to emphasize the academic/university side of the academies. It is totally natural and acceptable to ask questions from the perspective of a potential college student or parent there of. After all, most applicants ARE COMPARING the academies to other universities in determining their near future choices. So it's only natural that if you are comparing the academies to universities, that you'll take the position of your child "Going off to college". Just as this forum many times will take on the personality of a "University" forum.

Anyway, just wanted to make an observation. Nothing wrong with it. Nothing personal. Simply stating that both groups of people; academy cadets/applicants/parents, and active duty service members/applicants/parents, while having forums, support groups, etc., tend to view the military differently.

 

[TRdeeter]

I am not sure of what afmom2 is referring, but don't be so quick to attack and silence what she posted. On my end, there is a lot of talk and disgust over in squads because of tonight and Squad 22 training from 8pm until 10:30pm with orders to shower afterward and to put on their blues until taps. Quite a few upper-class cadets from other squads are unhappy with what was happening to the 4/cs considering many are injured and all are exhausted from basic with classes ahead in just hours. Several cadets told 22 to stop training since it was after 9pm, but the cadets in 22 mocked them and pressed harder on the 4/cs because of the criticism. upper class Cadets are discussing it around and a few calls made it over to our hotel just outside of base. Some think it's funny, but most find it wrong. Also, I have talked to a few 4/c parents who are upset about what they are hearing. Really, if it's so bad that the other cadets are talking about it, the matter should be reported. See something. Say something. Today's visit for the parade and tonight at the hotel, showed me that it's not business as usual in several squads. Some of the cadets cannot handle a tad of power, I guess. On our end, it isn't fair to dismiss what's going on in several squads--22 in particular (since they apparently have some reputation to live up to) in order to validate whether or not it was tougher for previous classes. Why be reductive? Perception matters. Stop with the denial. We do not want these types of stories starting this soon in the year. USAFA doesn't deserve this kind of attention and talk...or maybe it does if the mode of thinking is that character-building devoid of ethics is productive.

Please know that this is being dealt with accordingly. Also, I do not want anyone to mistake my responses as an attempt to discount what afmom has said. I understand that there are cadets who screw up, but I think that the public should have faith in our cadet wing. We make mistakes, but that does not make us bad people. The best interest of the four degrees should always be kept in mind, and when a cadet forgets that, it's up to another cadet to bring them back down to earth. Most issues that present themselves in the wing can also be solved in the wing. CS22 is made up of good cadets and making sweeping generalizations about their character is definitely not appropriate.

As a parent of cadet in Squad 22, I have to say....Of course I was upset to hear about what happened to the cadets that evening. Especially after seeing my DS in good spirits that day, and leaving him on a positive note. Then to hear that evening about what happened had me really upset. It's not so much what happened, even though I don't agree with the level it went to....but rather that this squadron has a reputation, and I think it's BS that the training in all squadrons isn't equal and that this seems to me more like hazing than anything else. I don't understand why the leaders of the squadron would want to have that image and want their incoming class to have negative feelings towards being in that squadron. I agree with training them within reason...but shouldn't the best interest of the squad be a priority. Shouldn't the cadets in the "leadership" positions want their group to succeed and do well, and shouldn't they want CS22 to be a solid unit in which the cadets are bonded with not only their CS19 class...but with the group as a whole? I guess I don't understand the point in making them hate you and making them have a miserable experience. From what I heard, not even the upperclassmen in this squadron agreed with what was done..but unfortunately they had to follow the orders of the one in charge. Apparently some people get on a power trip and go completely crazy. My question is, who is supposed to be monitoring THEM? It just really ticks me off that there are ANY squadrons that are known to be the bad ones, and that the leaders of that squadron feel the need to enforce the reputation.....and that my DS had to end up in that one. I understand that at USAFA they are supposed to learn leadership, It's unfortunate that in this instance they are learning POOR leadership, and how they DON'T want to be as a leader. A subordinate should want to follow due to respecting their leader, rather than fearing them. Unfortunately, this is being allowed...and that's why these certain squadrons continue to have this bad reputation. Thanks for letting me vent. :/

 

[LineInTheSand]

Oh wow. Just wow.

 

[MombaBomba]

What recourse does my kid have if he/she is mistreated, etc. etc. etc.? Will he/she be too intimidated by the fear of retribution to stand up and say something? Is there anything in place to protect my kid from retribution if he/she speaks up?

Momba, I can certainly understand your questions and can speak to them directly as I experienced such a situation personally. As a 20 year old, I enlisted in the Navy and the day before my swearing in my recruiter invited me to his apartment for a going away dinner. I thought nothing of it and went because I thought it would look bad if I declined. I will spare you details, but he supplied wine which I only sipped to be polite (as I didn't drink, not to mention it was illegal) and I stayed for dinner. After dinner he was very inappropriate and when I tried to leave he was forceful and threatened to make things bad for me at boot camp. I immediately pushed him away and left. I told my mother as it made me extremely uncomfortable and she was going to call the "Navy" and report the guy. I begged her not to because I was very afraid it would ruin things for me. I really believed that he could make my life and perhaps my career miserable and was afraid I would be prevented from going to the school I was promised. In hindsight, I wish I had let my mom call as I am sure I was not the first nor the last to fall prey to his advances. So, even as a 20 year old, I was not as wise. His behavior should have been reported, but fear of retaliation is real. That was over 30 years ago and times have changed. I do believe that the military is more aware of such things and there are mechanisms for the cadets and anyone in the military to speak out about any true mistreatment/inappropriate behavior. But I can guarantee, there is always that fear of retaliation in the back of ones mind, especially one who is new to the military and does not know all the ropes. About 5 years later, I ran into that same recruiter and I was much wiser and confident. He recognized me and had some smart remark and I was able to tell him that if I knew then what I know now, I would have reported him because I learned that I really had all the power and he had none. His career would have been toast and he knew it.

With that said, the best advice we can give DS/DD if they are confronted with inappropriate or illegal behavior is to be confident in themselves and always speak the truth. They can seek counsel with the Chaplain and if necessary, use their chain of command to bring the issue to light. Notice I say inappropriate or illegal; that does not mean that every time they get a little annoyed they should make it an issue. They need to be tough and learn to use good judgement. I am certain that life in the AFA will shape that confidence and as they grow and mature they will be able to discern when they need to act and when they just need to suck it up. Lastly, as parents, WE NEED to have confidence that they can learn to handle it and then LET THEM.

Thank you for sharing something so personal. That was such a terrible experience. I am so glad you were able to stand up to him later on in life.

We all struggle with concern about retribution at some time or other. I have been warned off from posting (asking questions, voicing concerns & doubts, defending those who get slammed for asking questions, etc.) by people in private messages in various social media. They tell me that anything I can say could be used against my child. It has been implied that it could follow him throughout his career in the military. I must now hold to the same thou shalt not speak out against or question our government. It's suggested that I somehow gave up my freedom of speech when he entered the USAFA. He might not get a leadership position or make it through the academy because of it. Then there are the openly veiled threats and innuendos from some parents in a group. I find this highly disturbing. And please note, the people issuing warnings privately in a message or veiled in a group post are not military or retired military people. They are civilians!!!

I do understand to a certain extent that I have to watch what I say, how I say it, to whom and where. It would be unwise to get drunk and behave badly on a military base, to call a General and ask why my son was passed up for promotion or didn't get an A in a course, to treat a lesser ranked soldier as if he/she was my lackey because my son is a higher rank, to openly criticize the commander in chief at a military ball, to share a youtube video of me burning a scarecrow while I danced around it naked singing liar liar pants on fire, to go out and rob a bank dressed as GI Joe, etc. etc. etc.. (****Though I shouldn't have to do this, I am adding a disclaimer that those are pretend scenarios that have not happened. It was all made up. No resemblance to reality what so ever.***) I do understand the whole "discretion thing" and "timing is everything." But to suggest that the military will enact retribution on my son because I have voiced questions and concerns and shared my view point in a civil manner while he was at the academy seems beyond the pale. That would suggest that I matter and that my son is that important. The reality is that we are not that important in the scope of things. At this point, we are nobodies and not worth keeping track of. I am not complaining as being a nobody definitely has it perks! It takes work to be a somebody, that or a massive act of stupidity which is filmed and then distributed on social media. I also think the academy is well aware that some of its cadets have "interesting" parents, and they still admit these cadets. Sometimes, I wonder if C4C year includes a lesson plan on neurotic parents: how to manage them and tune them out . Unless I do something really bad or become "that parent" which contacts the superintendent frequently, the academy isn't going to notice.

I honestly don't believe there is retribution for sharing concerns and view points or asking questions. If there was, there would not be public forums like this for us to utilize. I wish people would stop perpetuating "retribution".

(Yes, I do realize there are some not so nice people out there who do hold things against others and may exercise retribution. I am not naive. But I honestly believe the vast majority of people don't operate this way.)

 

[LineInTheSand]

This becomes an echo chamber of people not in the know repeating things they hear from someone also probably not in the know.

And then it just reinforces unfounded fears. It's overblown.

 

[Bullet]

This becomes an echo chamber of people not in the know repeating things they hear from someone also probably not in the know.

And then it just reinforces unfounded fears. It's overblown.

As it was said a few dozen posts ago -- Welcome to the world of social media, internet and instant communications.

Grab some popcorn and enjoy LITS

 

[haleym]

I like what FalconsRock said. Although I don't have exposure to other methods, my parents were very helpful to me. Not because they agreed with everything I said, but because they were honest and expected me to be an adult. I go to them for advice often, but it is always very clear that I am the one who has to live with the decisions that I make. I knew that if I came to them with something, it was either "do something about it or suck it up". In order to grow, you have to make those decisions for yourself. But it's all apart of the process, and it's not always easy!

 

[Boozebin]

This becomes an echo chamber of people not in the know repeating things they hear from someone also probably not in the know.

And then it just reinforces unfounded fears. It's overblown.

As it was said a few dozen posts ago -- Welcome to the world of social media, internet and instant communications.

Grab some popcorn and enjoy LITS

Wow 3 Bullet post in two days!

 

[raimius]

As a parent of cadet in Squad 22, I have to say....Of course I was upset to hear about what happened to the cadets that evening. Especially after seeing my DS in good spirits that day, and leaving him on a positive note. Then to hear that evening about what happened had me really upset. It's not so much what happened, even though I don't agree with the level it went to....but rather that this squadron has a reputation, and I think it's BS that the training in all squadrons isn't equal and that this seems to me more like hazing than anything else. I don't understand why the leaders of the squadron would want to have that image and want their incoming class to have negative feelings towards being in that squadron. I agree with training them within reason...but shouldn't the best interest of the squad be a priority. Shouldn't the cadets in the "leadership" positions want their group to succeed and do well, and shouldn't they want CS22 to be a solid unit in which the cadets are bonded with not only their CS19 class...but with the group as a whole? I guess I don't understand the point in making them hate you and making them have a miserable experience. From what I heard, not even the upperclassmen in this squadron agreed with what was done..but unfortunately they had to follow the orders of the one in charge. Apparently some people get on a power trip and go completely crazy. My question is, who is supposed to be monitoring THEM? It just really ticks me off that there are ANY squadrons that are known to be the bad ones, and that the leaders of that squadron feel the need to enforce the reputation.....and that my DS had to end up in that one. I understand that at USAFA they are supposed to learn leadership, It's unfortunate that in this instance they are learning POOR leadership, and how they DON'T want to be as a leader. A subordinate should want to follow due to respecting their leader, rather than fearing them. Unfortunately, this is being allowed...and that's why these certain squadrons continue to have this bad reputation. Thanks for letting me vent. :/

It isn't about "good" or "bad" squadrons. Some squadrons try to foster a "tough" persona, while others go for "chill." This occurs in the active force, as well, but usually isn't framed quite the same way. As a cadet, I was part of the "Chiller Cobras" (one of the most laid back squads, at the time). Later, I was assigned to one of the tougher squadrons. Both ways had benefits and drawbacks. A well-run introductory training/PT session can emphasize the point that their new unit has high standards for PT, teamwork, etc. If it is run poorly, it can come off as a haze. If it was poorly run or violated cadet training rules or schedules, the cadets who organized it should be counseled, and perhaps even punished (depending on the severity of their mistakes).
In the long run, it's a couple of hours of exercise...maybe at an inconvenient time. (I know plenty of people who occasionally work out at late hours, because their schedule gets messed up. It's not the end of the world.)

USAFA cadets are both under the UCMJ and the Cadet Disciplinary System. There are well-developed systems in place to address any abuses of the system. (Being run by humans, they aren't always perfect, but they are available and staffed by a lot of earnest, hardworking people.)

 

[84grad19dad]

My turn lol. As a flyer you learn a decision matrix when in the air and things start to go to uhmmmm-crap.

Aviate--Keep it flying. This need trumps all.
Navigate--Where am I? Where am I going? Can I land safely there? Easily secondary concerns to aviate.
Communicate--Tell people the situation-ATC, homebase etc. I 'll certainly explain my situation and ask/beg for help but only after I'm certain I'm not falling out of the sky.

Violating this protocol can get planes bent and people dead. That is not sarcasm, tongue in cheek, or in the least funny to any true aviator. It is fact that can save your life.

Point--You are in the military. If you hold committee meetings at the wrong time--people will die. Debrief once the plane is safely in the chocks. If you don't get the correlation to all the discussion in this thread-I can't help you. There is a time and place/venue-it is not located in the same place usually for military situations as civilian. Learning this and living this does not mean giving up basic human rights. Learning this can save lives. A co-pilot has to trust in the training, ablity and motives of their pilot. When you have an engine fire light it is not the time to say "Can we talk about this? Are you sure you want to hit the fuel cutoff? I've been thinking and it seems to me that a gentler approach might work as well."

 

[raimius]

My turn lol. As a flyer you learn a decision matrix when in the air and things start to go to uhmmmm-crap.

Aviate--Keep it flying. This need trumps all.
Navigate--Where am I? Where am I going? Can I land safely there? Easily secondary concerns to aviate.
Communicate--Tell people the situation-ATC, homebase etc. I 'll certainly explain my situation and ask/beg for help but only after I'm certain I'm not falling out of the sky.

Violating this protocol can get planes bent and people dead. That is not sarcasm, tongue in cheek, or in the least funny to any true aviator. It is fact that can save your life.

...and when everyone is staring at the caution panel and gauges, someone pipes up and says, "Hey, who is flying the plane?"

 

[afmom2]

I am not sure of what afmom2 is referring, but don't be so quick to attack and silence what she posted. On my end, there is a lot of talk and disgust over in squads because of tonight and Squad 22 training from 8pm until 10:30pm with orders to shower afterward and to put on their blues until taps. Quite a few upper-class cadets from other squads are unhappy with what was happening to the 4/cs considering many are injured and all are exhausted from basic with classes ahead in just hours. Several cadets told 22 to stop training since it was after 9pm, but the cadets in 22 mocked them and pressed harder on the 4/cs because of the criticism. upper class Cadets are discussing it around and a few calls made it over to our hotel just outside of base. Some think it's funny, but most find it wrong. Also, I have talked to a few 4/c parents who are upset about what they are hearing. Really, if it's so bad that the other cadets are talking about it, the matter should be reported. See something. Say something. Today's visit for the parade and tonight at the hotel, showed me that it's not business as usual in several squads. Some of the cadets cannot handle a tad of power, I guess. On our end, it isn't fair to dismiss what's going on in several squads--22 in particular (since they apparently have some reputation to live up to) in order to validate whether or not it was tougher for previous classes. Why be reductive? Perception matters. Stop with the denial. We do not want these types of stories starting this soon in the year. USAFA doesn't deserve this kind of attention and talk...or maybe it does if the mode of thinking is that character-building devoid of ethics is productive.

Please know that this is being dealt with accordingly. Also, I do not want anyone to mistake my responses as an attempt to discount what afmom has said. I understand that there are cadets who screw up, but I think that the public should have faith in our cadet wing. We make mistakes, but that does not make us bad people. The best interest of the four degrees should always be kept in mind, and when a cadet forgets that, it's up to another cadet to bring them back down to earth. Most issues that present themselves in the wing can also be solved in the wing. CS22 is made up of good cadets and making sweeping generalizations about their character is definitely not appropriate.

As a parent of cadet in Squad 22, I have to say....Of course I was upset to hear about what happened to the cadets that evening. Especially after seeing my DS in good spirits that day, and leaving him on a positive note. Then to hear that evening about what happened had me really upset. It's not so much what happened, even though I don't agree with the level it went to....but rather that this squadron has a reputation, and I think it's BS that the training in all squadrons isn't equal and that this seems to me more like hazing than anything else. I don't understand why the leaders of the squadron would want to have that image and want their incoming class to have negative feelings towards being in that squadron. I agree with training them within reason...but shouldn't the best interest of the squad be a priority. Shouldn't the cadets in the "leadership" positions want their group to succeed and do well, and shouldn't they want CS22 to be a solid unit in which the cadets are bonded with not only their CS19 class...but with the group as a whole? I guess I don't understand the point in making them hate you and making them have a miserable experience. From what I heard, not even the upperclassmen in this squadron agreed with what was done..but unfortunately they had to follow the orders of the one in charge. Apparently some people get on a power trip and go completely crazy. My question is, who is supposed to be monitoring THEM? It just really ticks me off that there are ANY squadrons that are known to be the bad ones, and that the leaders of that squadron feel the need to enforce the reputation.....and that my DS had to end up in that one. I understand that at USAFA they are supposed to learn leadership, It's unfortunate that in this instance they are learning POOR leadership, and how they DON'T want to be as a leader. A subordinate should want to follow due to respecting their leader, rather than fearing them. Unfortunately, this is being allowed...and that's why these certain squadrons continue to have this bad reputation. Thanks for letting me vent. :/

I am not sure of what afmom2 is referring, but don't be so quick to attack and silence what she posted. On my end, there is a lot of talk and disgust over in squads because of tonight and Squad 22 training from 8pm until 10:30pm with orders to shower afterward and to put on their blues until taps. Quite a few upper-class cadets from other squads are unhappy with what was happening to the 4/cs considering many are injured and all are exhausted from basic with classes ahead in just hours. Several cadets told 22 to stop training since it was after 9pm, but the cadets in 22 mocked them and pressed harder on the 4/cs because of the criticism. upper class Cadets are discussing it around and a few calls made it over to our hotel just outside of base. Some think it's funny, but most find it wrong. Also, I have talked to a few 4/c parents who are upset about what they are hearing. Really, if it's so bad that the other cadets are talking about it, the matter should be reported. See something. Say something. Today's visit for the parade and tonight at the hotel, showed me that it's not business as usual in several squads. Some of the cadets cannot handle a tad of power, I guess. On our end, it isn't fair to dismiss what's going on in several squads--22 in particular (since they apparently have some reputation to live up to) in order to validate whether or not it was tougher for previous classes. Why be reductive? Perception matters. Stop with the denial. We do not want these types of stories starting this soon in the year. USAFA doesn't deserve this kind of attention and talk...or maybe it does if the mode of thinking is that character-building devoid of ethics is productive.

Please know that this is being dealt with accordingly. Also, I do not want anyone to mistake my responses as an attempt to discount what afmom has said. I understand that there are cadets who screw up, but I think that the public should have faith in our cadet wing. We make mistakes, but that does not make us bad people. The best interest of the four degrees should always be kept in mind, and when a cadet forgets that, it's up to another cadet to bring them back down to earth. Most issues that present themselves in the wing can also be solved in the wing. CS22 is made up of good cadets and making sweeping generalizations about their character is definitely not appropriate.

As a parent of cadet in Squad 22, I have to say....Of course I was upset to hear about what happened to the cadets that evening. Especially after seeing my DS in good spirits that day, and leaving him on a positive note. Then to hear that evening about what happened had me really upset. It's not so much what happened, even though I don't agree with the level it went to....but rather that this squadron has a reputation, and I think it's BS that the training in all squadrons isn't equal and that this seems to me more like hazing than anything else. I don't understand why the leaders of the squadron would want to have that image and want their incoming class to have negative feelings towards being in that squadron. I agree with training them within reason...but shouldn't the best interest of the squad be a priority. Shouldn't the cadets in the "leadership" positions want their group to succeed and do well, and shouldn't they want CS22 to be a solid unit in which the cadets are bonded with not only their CS19 class...but with the group as a whole? I guess I don't understand the point in making them hate you and making them have a miserable experience. From what I heard, not even the upperclassmen in this squadron agreed with what was done..but unfortunately they had to follow the orders of the one in charge. Apparently some people get on a power trip and go completely crazy. My question is, who is supposed to be monitoring THEM? It just really ticks me off that there are ANY squadrons that are known to be the bad ones, and that the leaders of that squadron feel the need to enforce the reputation.....and that my DS had to end up in that one. I understand that at USAFA they are supposed to learn leadership, It's unfortunate that in this instance they are learning POOR leadership, and how they DON'T want to be as a leader. A subordinate should want to follow due to respecting their leader, rather than fearing them. Unfortunately, this is being allowed...and that's why these certain squadrons continue to have this bad reputation. Thanks for letting me vent. :/

Perfectly stated TRdeeter.

 

[Blueblood1]

I'm confused on what folks think Basic training is. Maybe things have changed in the gazillion years since I was in boot camp but I can promise what they go through in BCT at USAFA pales in comparison to what the enlisted go through especially if you are looking at the Army and even more so for the Marines. BCT is 5 weeks long... 5 WEEKS! The Air Force enlisted go through 8 1/2 weeks. During that 5 weeks they have Ice cream on the 4th of July, a day at the rodeo and doolie day out to kick back and relax. I know it is tough but lets be honest it is the easiest of any boot camp that I know of. Ask someone who just finished 13 weeks Basic training at Parris Island how many days off they had. Ask them if it was mentally hard. Ask them just how physical it was.

I have a son at the USAFA and another who is enlisted Air Force so I am very familiar with what both went through in boot camp. Boot camp is supposed to be physically and mentally demanding. Their lives may one day depend on that training. This is a MILITARY training program, not STATE U! I welcome it to be tougher and I'd think anyone who has a son or daughter there would also. I prefer my son have a fighting chance if he were to become a pilot and get shot down in hostile territory. If you cannot last 5 weeks at BCT no matter how tough, how will you survive in a real hostile environment?

When I was at A-day last year I was shocked at how many cadets I saw falling out of formation during the ceremony. It was a comfortable day and they were dropping like flies. I was wondering what kind of training did they go through that they can't even stand at parade rest for 1/2 hour without passing out.

Maybe I'm old school but I'd rather it be tough and lose some people than to make it to easy and do them all a disservice. It is their job to prepare them for the worst and that is what they need to do.

Spot on Rocko. We are all helicopter parents to some extent, but there have been lots of sour grapes served up in this thread.
It is designed to be the biggest challenge these kids have ever faced, and some (especially the ones that share every utterance from Cadre with parents) have not encountered such criticism before.

The kids that finish feel a HUGE sense of accomplishment.

 

[Blueblood1]

Not that you can really equate many aspects of a SA with a normal college, but I was wondering --

Does anyone at Michigan State or Notre Dame complain about their football players' practices being too hard? I can guarantee you there is no PT Card in place, and there is even more puking and passing out in summer sessions on most college football fields than BCT. [And do not get me wrong, I am not saying BCT is easier than football practices -- but from a purely physical standpoint -- those boys get "beat" just as bad as any Basic].

Every one of our kids is on a full-ride scholarship +. In addition to that, they are guaranteed a good job when the graduate and a world class education. That cannot be said for the football player at any major program.

There are outside parameters in place. If those parameters are exceeded, there are consequences. Yes, squad 22 has a reputation. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that in a bar somewhere in the world someone will drop an RMO, both be equal rank and academy grads, and one will chime up and say CS-22 and trump the other.

Point being, as long as protocol and guidelines for safety are not exceeded, the academy lets the cadets run their own show. In four years or less, these men and women will be officers, with the responsibility of leading others, and at times, with their very lives at stake. Let them learn to lead effectively. It is better that the mess up here, or learn what tactics and styles allow them to lead effectively than try to figure that out when the lives of their squad, crew, or other units they need to support are on the line.

 

[afmom2]

The share of ever utterance remark:
My son is home and what I know is what he happened to share. He's a tough kid, strong willed and independent. He has also been a varsity athlete and knows perfectly well about being part of the team and has dealt with lots of adversity and challenges. He roomed with s prior and that prior found this bct more difficult than his previous 2 trainings. The point is that the flights are all managed differently. Good or bad. Yes, just like the real world. It's unfortunate though, that some dreams may have been cut short due to the power trip of a few young cadre with personal grievances and agendas. This has nothing to do with lack of ability or desire to serve.

 

[Godandcountry]

afmom2

I am truly sorry that it didn't work out for your son. That has to be very difficult. Good luck / God speed on whatever is his next move.


Sent using the Service Academy Forums® mobile app

 

[USAFA83GradWife]

afmom2, I truly believe that your son had/has the ability and desire to serve. My DD had a small advantage in that her dad told her what to expect, and yes, she still had an incredibly rough time (she was told to "just quit, you don't belong here"). She later discovered that that particular cadre said that often to many of her basics. Not what I would call a good motivator.

The other advantage was that she couldn't quit because her dad made it through! So, for someone coming in completely new to this whole military thing it has got to make it that much more difficult. I respect all those who gave it a shot.

I also agree that there are some that abuse their power. What's that saying, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"?
When its your child on the receiving end, it can be almost unbearable. That's why the other upperclassmen and officers are charged with watching for hazing, following the PT card, etc. The Academy takes very seriously the job of training officers. I'm sure that those cadre that abused their authority have been punished (based on what your son said in the out briefing.) This won't be just a slap on the wrist. They are evaluated and given a Military Point Ave (MPA) -- like a gpa but for the military aspect of their training. The mpa is part of the formula that determines Order of Merit, or ranking in their class, which will affect their opportunities to do all sorts of things. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if they got demerits. Too many demerits = disenrollment.

So, there are checks in place. If they said those cadre will be punished, then I for one believe them.

I wish your son the very best and I'm truly sad this happened to him. I know he will do very well at whatever new path he chooses!

 

[Blueblood1]

Afmom -- I do feel for you and your son. The fact that he was appointed and made it through BCT though affirms that he is a remarkable young man, with intelligence, aptitude and determination. He will have many opportunities. I wish the both the best.

 

[MombaBomba]

The share of ever utterance remark:
My son is home and what I know is what he happened to share. He's a tough kid, strong willed and independent. He has also been a varsity athlete and knows perfectly well about being part of the team and has dealt with lots of adversity and challenges. He roomed with s prior and that prior found this bct more difficult than his previous 2 trainings. The point is that the flights are all managed differently. Good or bad. Yes, just like the real world. It's unfortunate though, that some dreams may have been cut short due to the power trip of a few young cadre with personal grievances and agendas. This has nothing to do with lack of ability or desire to serve.

I am so sorry this happened to your son. I hope he finds much joy and fulfillment going forward. Good luck to him!