Service Selection

There's some balance between the two views. Although Company Officers/SELs, BattOs, etc obviously have more experience in determining who would make a good officer, they often don't see the full picture. They don't live in Bancroft 24/7. It's a shore command, and many take advantage of that to see their family more. I had three different Company Officers during my time at USNA, two of which were female. Both females gave birth while there, which meant a significant amount of time away on maternity leave and not keeping up with the company.

I honestly was shocked several times at the midshipmen who ended up being retained following significant honor/conduct trouble, which often was a trend. Both my roommates were Black N's, so I don't say this as some kind of Joe, but there were several occasions at least where granting upperclass a little more leeway than is allowed now to run plebes out could have saved the Navy a significant amount of money and headache versus kicking the can further down the road like happens all too often.
 
pilot2b said:
I honestly was shocked several times at the midshipmen who ended up being retained following significant honor/conduct trouble, which often was a trend. ...
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I recall not one instance of a Midshipman Honor Offense that did not result in dismissal.

I remember only one example of a Midshipman that failed a course (<2.5) and was not summarily dismissed. He Turned Back at the end of Plebe Year and returned to the following class (mine) as a 4/c but was not considered a Plebe as he had completed that trial. S.R. subsequently graduated with us.

My Plebe Year I do not think I saw my Company Officer two times. Saw the Battalion Officer no more often.
 
Can anyone give a brief list of what conduct is considered an honor offense?
 
A1Janitor said:
Can anyone give a brief list of what conduct is considered an honor offense?
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In another thread, I believe, I asked if there was a discussion of the difference between WP's Honor Code and Navy's Honor Concept.

I think that my question is too broad and that it would be of less value than your question.

I just skimmed the USNA instruction and it is like 40 pages and points out that it has been changed and modified many times over the years since it was instituted in the 1950s. Interestingly, it seems to change the mechanics of what to do - e.g. how to report/investigate/ etc, but the same basic credo is foremost and paramount.

But one thing has not changed, A midshipman does not lie, cheat, nor steal.

To which I would add, Never, never, never.

I hope someone else will answer. I have two good examples in which I was involved as the reporting person and in one where I was a witness.
 
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SaltiDawg said:
In another thread, I believe, I asked if there was a discussion of the difference between WP's Honor Code and Navy's Honor Concept.

I think that my question is too broad and that it would be of less value than your question.

I just skimmed the USNA instruction and it is like 40 pages and points out that it has been changed and modified many times over the years since it was instituted in the 1950s. Interestingly, it seems to change the mechanics of what to do - e.g. how to report/investigate/ etc, but the same basic credo is foremost and paramount.

But one thing has not changed, A midshipman does not lie, cheat, nor steal.

To which I would add, Never, never, never.

I hope someone else will answer. I have two good examples in which I was involved as the reporting person and in one where I was a witness.
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Yeah ... that’s what I meant - what are some examples.
 
A1Janitor said:
Yeah ... that’s what I meant - what are some examples.
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Lying about things, cheating on tests, violating a collaboration policy, plagiarizing, etc. Sometimes people who get in conduct trouble will lie during the investigation or lie to try and cover up their misconduct when confronted and that will land someone in the honor system as well. Honor is not purely academic. It covers everything from where you are going on liberty (like intentionally putting an address down where you aren't staying), to and professional knowledge and everything in between.

And to everyone, I am a 1/C MIDN who just went through service assignment. More than happy to answer questions about literally anything about my application processes (you read that right!), life as a MIDN (both Plebe and Upperclass), the Yard itself, and anything else you come up with. I just went through service assignment, so this thread caught my eye!
 
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My questions: when did you know what service you wanted? Does that generally happen after summer training? And when do you have to actually make your choices?

Congrats to you!
 
justdoit19 said:
My questions: when did you know what service you wanted? Does that generally happen after summer training? And when do you have to actually make your choices?

Congrats to you!
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I knew I wanted to fly since I was a little kid, so I knew what job I wanted early on. 2/C Summer exposed me to the USMC so I was considering Marine Air from then to 1/C Summer. I was solidified by time I put in preferences (Navy all the way).Not the case for everyone. Some go back and forth. Some come in “knowing” what they want to do and then they see something awesome during summer trainings or have good Officer interactions from another community during their time at school and select something different as a result. Others make a game time decision (few of my classmates did) or are DQ’d from a job or almost all of them for some reason or another. Our deadline for final preferences was August 30th this year, I think.
 
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You get a good idea of how every conventional community works throughout your MIDN career. However, you won’t really get an in-depth look at SEAL/EOD unless you seek those opportunities out (I.e. screen for selection/cruises). You come to realize that everyone has their role and not one role is better than the other. Pilots/NFOs need Nuke SWOs to operate the reactor for the carrier. SEALs need Sub officers to drive the sub for Delivery Vehicle Ops. Everyone needs Supply to eat!
 
SaltiDawg said:
Youngsters were made to be Seen and not heard.
2/C carried a lot of the Plebe Indoctrination
1/C provided the oversight and checks and balances.
Each Plebe had an assigned 1/C that was his firsty. Sometimes that firsty was a helicopter "mom" - sometimes of no help or guidance.
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> This is a far characterization of the mid-80's as well. The 1/c was the Squad Leader, and as you note, of varying quality. (I had a squad leader as a Plebe that was utterly worthless), and training (mostly comearounds before Noon formation and noon meal) were done within the squad. I would be curious to hear from the current Midshipman if this is still the norm-- I have seen comments that training and plebe development is done by a Training Cadre in each Company, does this take the training /plebe development away from the Squad structure ? (That might explain my observations when I ate lunch with the Brigade last year, where I saw litte or no training occuring).

SaltiDawg said:
No Plebe would have been "forced out" by a youngster or a Segundo- unless an Honor Offense.
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>This was not a common occurence, but I suspect that it happened from time to time. Didn't James Webb write about it in "A Sense of Honor" ? (I apologize if I mischaracterize the book, but its been a looooong time since I read it). I recall a couple instances where a handful of 1st or 2nd Class took it upon themselves to square away a Plebe that just wasn't performing. There was a fine line between squaring away a troubled Plebe and "forcing them out" back then, and I suspect that today's more enlightened approach to training makes this scenario far less likely.
 
kp2001 said:
Ask your wife if she thinks residency would have been easier younger and without kids and get back to me.

I’m not saying those folks don’t excel, I’m saying residency sucks and the less things you have to deal with outside of residency there is slightly less suck. I was one of those older folks, started residency at 32, had 2 kids and a 3rd in fellowship. Did I do well, yes. Did I get to spend much time with my kids, nope. Did I rely heavily on family and have childcare issues that precluded me from doing some things, yep. Did it really suck trying to recover after 30hrs awake, yep. Have I seen residents have massive struggles when their childcare fell through, yes. Would I change my career path, no way.

If you have the opportunity to go, go as early as you can. If you don’t have the opportunity then don’t sweat it, you’ll be fine.
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Not saying it wasn't difficult. But she had also been in combat. Been through flight school. Commanded a combat unit. Childcare issues are really tough when both parents are suddenly deployed. I was deployed with Special Ops and called home only to have friends answer the phone. They weren't there to visit, they were there to take care of our daughter until one of us got home as my wife had been sent to Kuwait with no notice. Almost all of the prior military in her residency had no complaints about the hours. At least they got to see their families. Except for her rotations away from the main hospital, she was always around. No 12-18 month combat deployments. Heck, we saw more of each other during her six years of residency and fellowship than we did at any other time in the military and no one was shooting at her (she's now on her 4th combat deployment).
But these are the things that give a "non-traditional" doc perspective, especially those in the military. They actually have lived through the challenges of being leaders, pilots, tankers and other specialties. They've been through combat as platoon leaders and company commanders and understand the challenges that are faced. Yeah, it does make a huge difference with a military doctor.
 
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SaltiDawg said:
But one thing has not changed, A midshipman does not lie, cheat, nor steal.
To which I would add, Never, never, never.
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> While those are great words to live by, and following them will always keep you out of Honor situations, the Naval Academy Honor "Concept" (it is not a "Code" anymore , is more nuanced and violation does not result in almost certain expulsion. That is one of the major differences between USNA and West Point, which incidentally carries the additional instruction "nor tolerate those that do "; i.e. you can be expelled from West Point and USAFA for observing an Honor Offense and not turning the offender in. I am not close enough to USNA to understand all of the nuance, but there are certainly exceptions to the old rule of Lie, Cheat or Steal and you are gone. (Even in the mid-80's, there were exceptions...I recall a couple cases, including a "classmate" who was actually a year ahead, found guilty of an honor offense, and went to the Fleet for a year before being readmitted to continue with my Class).
 
Old Navy BGO said:
> While those are great words to live by, and following them will always keep you out of Honor situations, the Naval Academy Honor "Concept" (it is not a "Code" anymore , ...
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It is an Honor Code at West Point. It has always been an Honor System at Navy.

If I understand your inference, I disagree 100% that it they are nice words to live by.

The very first page of our Honor Concept is:

Midshipmen are persons of integrity:
WE STAND FOR THAT WHICH IS RIGHT.

We tell the truth and ensure that the full truth is known.
WE DO NOT LIE.

We embrace fairness in all actions.
We ensure that work submitted as our own is our own, and that assistance received from any
source is authorized and properly documented.
WE DO NOT CHEAT.

We respect the property of others and
ensure that others are able to benefit from the use of their own property.
WE DO NOT STEAL.
​
These are not words to aspire to or to live by. These are chiseled in granite rules that are sacred to a Midshipman.

In my mind the absence of "and do not tolerate those that do" is a null distinction.

The Honor Concept does not say I do not Lie... it clearly says We do not lie.
 
these days, there is an Honor Remediation Program where mids who are found in violation of an honor offense, and retained, must follow a 4-6 month program focused on character development including regular meetings with a senior officer.

i think there are caveats that this is only available to 4th and 3rd class, the mid must plead guilty and must show remorse to be given this second chance, which is not guaranteed
 
SaltiDawg said:
​
These are not words to aspire to or to live by. These are chiseled in granite rules that are sacred to a Midshipman.

In my mind the absence of "and do not tolerate those that do" is a null distinction.

The Honor Concept does not say I do not Lie... it clearly says We do not lie.
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according to the way USNA does training these days, it's a Concept not a Rule.

Screen Shot 2019-11-27 at 11.27.39 AM.png
 
I can only say it so many times, since it's inception in 1953 the Honor Concept at Navy has been a CONCEPT.

I get it. I lived it. I continue to support it. And in my own personal case, I have continued to strive to embody it's precepts - and will do so for the rest of my life.
PERIOD!
 
SaltiDawg said:
If I understand your inference, I disagree 100% that it they are nice words to live by.
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SaltiDawg said:
I get it. I lived it. I continue to support it. And in my own personal case, I have continued to strive to embody it's precepts - and will do so for the rest of my life.PERIOD!
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Salti, perhaps my choice of the words "nice words to live by" was not precise enough . A simple "A Midshipman does not lie, cheat or steal" should be sufficient, and frankly I don't think distinctions like "code" v. "concept" do anything but muddy the waters and give sea lawyers something to argue about. I was not infering that anything but 100% compliance was acceptable ...my point was that if you lived with the principle "A Midshipman does not lie, cheat or steal" you would stay well clear of any honor violation and wouldn't have to deal with the nuances.

The purpose of this Forum is to give prospective Midshipman current information about the Naval Academy, and the point of my post was that the Honor Concept does not appear to be as black and white as it was in your (and my) day. Perhaps its more in the administration (I haven't seen the applicable MIDNINST), but USNA appears to have gone out of its way to emphasize that the Honor Concept is not as regimented as it used to be. I don't necessarily agree with the approach, but this isn't the time or place for that discussion.
 
Final comment and then, believe me, I'm done with this thread.

The lack of a statement "and do not tolerate those that do" is not significant in my mind.
A Midshipman that fails to report a known honor violation has committed a conduct infraction and is subject to the assignment of demerits and dismissal. I have bent over backward trying to make it clear that Navy, Army, and AF have all three instituted major changes in their approaches to creating honor standards... and it seems the timing of these re-writes follows shortly some major breech in ethics.

Sorry to have wasted so much of the readers' collective time on this. To me the Honor System is at the very heart of the Mission:

"To develop Midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to graduate leaders who are dedicated to a career of naval service and have potential for future development in mind and character to assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government."

"Without honor, they may as well close the place down." SaltiDawg 11/27/2019
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