Russia - Ukraine

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LurkingQuietly

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There seems to be some activity happening on the Eastern Ukraine boarder with Russia. Does anyone care considering President Biden's apparent guarantee of U.S. "Unwavering support" to Ukraine’s president? Or Are we thinking its just Washington going to send 'hopes and prayers'?
 
Well, I thought I read something about 2 ships heading to the Black Sea but I wouldn't think it will make a difference.
 
I would not want to send my DS to risk his life defending Ukraine (even though part of my family came from from Kharkov in around 1906.) So, economic sanctions against Russia are all that I would support.
 
The British and French tried intervening in 1853. It was described as "Notoriously Incompetent International Butchery". Who wants to go to war over the Crimea? The only thing good to come out of that fiasco was a Poem!
 
LurkingQuietly said:
There seems to be some activity happening on the Eastern Ukraine boarder with Russia.
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There’s been “activity” in eastern Ukraine for several years now. It was hotter a couple years ago — real fighting, deaths, destruction.

It’s a quasi-civil war, actually, with the Russian-speaking east in a kind of standoff with the Ukrainian-speaking west. The rivalry has simmered for a very, very long time. It’s come to a head of late, because modern official Ukraine sides with NATO and the EU, while the east unofficially remains tethered to Russia. And with Russia not very slyly providing arms (and perhaps troops), it flares like it is now.

If the U.S. becomes involved, it probably will have more to do with stemming Russia than with protecting Ukraine. They’re related issues, of course, but one objective looms a bit bigger than the other. I don’t believe the U.S. foreign policy establishment — across multiple administrations — sees Ukraine in the same light as Poland, which we’d defend in a heartbeat. Poland is shamelessly pro-U.S. and anti-Russia, and is a member of both the EU and NATO.
 
MidCakePa said:
There’s been “activity” in eastern Ukraine for several years now. It was hotter a couple years ago — real fighting, deaths, destruction.
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I'm just watching the sabre rattling, and its getting pretty noisy. Anthony Blinken was on "Meet the Press" on Sunday. And the below just published this morning on "Yahoo News". In the past 60 days, Russia has moved 40,000 troops to the Ukraine boarder, that's in addition to the 40,000 already in Crimea.

Top Kremlin Mouthpiece Warns of ‘Inevitable’ War With U.S. Over Another Ukraine Land Grab
 
LurkingQuietly said:
I'm just watching the sabre rattling, and its getting pretty noisy. Anthony Blinken was on "Meet the Press" on Sunday. And the below just published this morning on "Yahoo News". In the past 60 days, Russia has moved 40,000 troops to the Ukraine boarder, that's in addition to the 40,000 already in Crimea.

Top Kremlin Mouthpiece Warns of ‘Inevitable’ War With U.S. Over Another Ukraine Land Grab
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The military-industrial complex is pretty antsy after 4 years of inactivity. Time to turn over the arsenal and crank up production!
 
A1Janitor said:
Instead of war, I’d prefer we investigated the alleged corruption of Ukraine and American politicians.
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Totally agree; Starting with Andrii Derkach and Rudy Guilliani

www.politico.com

Russia stoked Ukraine allegations, used Trump allies to undermine Biden, U.S. intel agencies say

Iran also aimed to interfere in last year's election, according to the long-awaited postmortem, while a minority opinion says China "took at least some steps to undermine" Donald Trump.
www.politico.com www.politico.com
 
Wishful said:
I found this article puts the "crisis" is perspective.
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My favorite line from this article is "The reason for the buildup remains unclear". My first guess is Russia does has a legitimate security interest in the eastern Ukraine. Additionally, The deep state could be using this to kill Nord Stream 2 and German-Russian relations.
 
LurkingQuietly said:
My favorite line from this article is "The reason for the buildup remains unclear". My first guess is Russia does has a legitimate security interest in the eastern Ukraine. Additionally, The deep state could be using this to kill Nord Stream 2 and German-Russian relations.
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What exactly is that legitimate security interest? Russia is being threatened by Ukraine how exactly?

When did Trump join the deep state?

www.reuters.com

Trump considering sanctions over Russia's Nord Stream 2 natgas pipeline

President Donald Trump said on Wednesday he was considering sanctions over Russia's Nord Stream 2 natural gas pipeline project -- which the United States has told European companies
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

Read a little Russian History.

Russia has suffered from territorial insecurity for a thousand years, constantly trying to defend borders that became harder and harder to defend as the territory they conquered expanded became harder and hard to defend.

In the current context, they are not so much concerned by territorial threats from the likes of Latvia, Georgia or Ukraine. They are threatened by the desire of the former Soviet Republics and Warsaw Pact members to adopt Western notions liberal democracy: rule of law, press freedom and free enterprise.
 
LurkingQuietly said:
My first guess is Russia does has a legitimate security interest in the eastern Ukraine.
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Hmmm, if I were a country that over the centuries invaded, occupied and destroyed my neighbor, then yes, I'd definitely have a legitimate security interest as that neighbor starts to rise and find its strength.

Ukrainians -- particularly in the west -- have a hard time forgetting about the 20 million people Stalin starved to death in the 1920s and '30s. Go figure! (There's compelling evidence that the 20 million is actually a gross undercount.)
 
cb7893 said:
They are threatened by the desire of the former Soviet Republics and Warsaw Pact members to adopt Western notions liberal democracy: rule of law, press freedom and free enterprise.
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The Ukrainian’s have every right to seek their independence and freedom, but they must fight for it themselves.
 
NJROTC-CC said:
The Ukrainian’s have every right to seek their independence and freedom, but they must fight for it themselves.
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I am in no shape or form advocating any political point in regards to this particular matter but as a general concept, if the French had said that to us during our Revolutionary War, we might not have outlasted the British to gain our independence. Countries will be involved with other countries’ domestic and international issues because it serves their interests and we live in a very interconnected global society that the internet and technology has only increased, not decreased over the last two centuries.
W

War, and all forms of use of force up to total war, are political tools at the disposal of a country to protect and extend their interests. Clauswitz has some interesting stuff to say on the matter in this vein
 
Casey said:
I am in no shape or form advocating any political point in regards to this particular matter but as a general concept, if the French had said that to us during our Revolutionary War, we might not have outlasted the British to gain our independence. Countries will be involved with other countries’ domestic and international issues because it serves their interests and we live in a very interconnected global society that the internet and technology has only increased, not decreased over the last two centuries.
W

War, and all forms of use of force up to total war, are political tools at the disposal of a country to protect and extend their interests. Clauswitz has some interesting stuff to say on the matter in this vein
Click to expand...
There was ZERO altruism on the part of France during the American Revolution. France wanted England out of North America. I am not sure we have the same interest in keeping Russia out of Ukraine.

We can support Ukraine, and their independence in many ways, but not with troops. The test I use is that I ask myself "Would I want my son dying leading troops in a war in ___________," in this case Ukraine. The answer - - for me - - is NO. I am just saying, we need to stay out of this.
 
There is nothing legitimate about Russian actions there or in the Balkans. If Ukraine isn't in our interest, is Poland, the Czech Republic, Austria, Germany, France? Where do we draw the line?
 
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