Russia - Ukraine

NJROTC-CC said:
There was ZERO altruism on the part of France during the American Revolution. France wanted England out of North America. I am not sure we have the same interest in keeping Russia out of Ukraine.

We can support Ukraine, and their independence in many ways, but not with troops. The test I use is that I ask myself "Would I want my son dying leading troops in a war in ___________," in this case Ukraine. The answer - - for me - - is NO. I am just saying, we need to stay out of this.
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If your answer is ever yes to "would I want my son dying leading troops in ______" you're doing it wrong.
 
He is going to do the exact thing that Obama did when the Russians came for both the Crimea, which is to complain and do nothing. Remember, Crimea was part of Ukraine until unidentified forces took it over. Unidentified as it was Russian forces not using a Russia patch on their uniform. We all know, Biden is not going to commit forces to save Ukraine or Taiwan from the Chinese. This is not even a criticism of Biden, not sure what current president would get involved at this point. Let's also be honest, US people dont have a stomach for it. Europeans arent going to back us up in a boycott of all Russian goods because they buy oil from Russia
 
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LineInTheSand said:
If your answer is ever yes to "would I want my son dying leading troops in ______" you're doing it wrong.
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You are taking that too literally. But I think you know what I mean.

I would approve of my son risking his life to defend this country, but not in the fight for Ukrainian independence. It is not a vital interest to the USA. Russia has dominated Ukraine for a long time. It’s not our fight.
 
NJROTC-CC said:
There was ZERO altruism on the part of France during the American Revolution. France wanted England out of North America. I am not sure we have the same interest in keeping Russia out of Ukraine.

We can support Ukraine, and their independence in many ways, but not with troops. The test I use is that I ask myself "Would I want my son dying leading troops in a war in ___________," in this case Ukraine. The answer - - for me - - is NO. I am just saying, we need to stay out of this.
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Please post the list of nations you would be ok with your son dying in while leading troops in a war.
 
MidCakePa said:
Hmmm, if I were a country that over the centuries invaded, occupied and destroyed my neighbor, then yes, I'd definitely have a legitimate security interest as that neighbor starts to rise and find its strength.

Ukrainians -- particularly in the west -- have a hard time forgetting about the 20 million people Stalin starved to death in the 1920s and '30s. Go figure! (There's compelling evidence that the 20 million is actually a gross undercount.)
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They have their independence. They are a sovereign nation whose territory is being occupied by Russia. Russia is also supporting a separatist movement in in the Donbas region.

This is Putin's playbook. Google Transdniestria, Abkhasia, South Ossetia. This is what he does and this is what his predecessors did as well.

The "holodomor" is another topic all together. good on you that you understand that part of history.
 
MidCakePa said:
Ukrainians -- particularly in the west -- have a hard time forgetting about the 20 million people Stalin starved to death in the 1920s and '30s. Go figure! (There's compelling evidence that the 20 million is actually a gross undercount.)
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Wasn't Stalin from Georgia not Russia? Anyhow, ethnic Russians make up 40% of the Donbas (eastern Ukraine). The USSR changed the demographic makeup of the Region......sort of like what's happening today in the Southwest United States.
 
MidCakePa said:
Stalin was born in Georgia and became head of the Soviet Union in the mid 1920s, replacing Lenin. He proceeded to order one of the most ruthless acts — maybe the most ruthless — of genocide ever known.
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I’ve walked through the woods of Kurapaty, Belarus where thousands of divots still remain from the dug up graves during the great Purge. Reminded me of Auschwitz.
 
MidCakePa said:
Stalin was born in Georgia and became head of the Soviet Union in the mid 1920s, replacing Lenin. He proceeded to order one of the most ruthless acts — maybe the most ruthless — of genocide ever known.
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And Walter Duranty received the Pulitzer prize for the NY Time telling the US how wonderful this all was. I'm sure if you add the scorecard up, the death toll for 20th Century Marxism/Socialism/Communism is well over100 million. We should try Socialism in the US...Hey, what could possibly go wrong?

Anyhow, Russia's expansion into the Eastern Ukraine and Crimea isn't about Communism. Putin will invade the Donbas, the Ukrainian Army can't stop them, so the question is what will the west do? .
 
LurkingQuietly said:
And Walter Duranty received the Pulitzer prize for the NY Time telling the US how wonderful this all was. I'm sure if you add the scorecard up, the death toll for 20th Century Marxism/Socialism/Communism is well over100 million. We should try Socialism in the US...Hey, what could possibly go wrong?

Anyhow, Russia's expansion into the Eastern Ukraine and Crimea isn't about Communism. Putin will invade the Donbas, the Ukrainian Army can't stop them, so the question is what will the west do? .
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Russian goals have always been the same whether under the Czars, the Soviets, or Putin. Each used a different political philosophy to govern but nothing really has changed although each was a dictatorship of one form or another
 
I have been checking this thread for news on the buildup on the border and all it is is conjecture and history.
Thread does not deliver!



;)
 
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Humey said:
He is going to do the exact thing that Obama did when the Russians came for both the Crimea, which is to complain and do nothing. Remember, Crimea was part of Ukraine until unidentified forces took it over. Unidentified as it was Russian forces not using a Russia patch on their uniform. We all know, Biden is not going to commit forces to save Ukraine or Taiwan from the Chinese. This is not even a criticism of Biden, not sure what current president would get involved at this point. Let's also be honest, US people dont have a stomach for it. Europeans arent going to back us up in a boycott of all Russian goods because they buy oil from Russia
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Humey, Taiwan is not Crimea. Taiwan is an island with more than 23 million people, has a pretty strong military, and actually has economic and geographic importance in the Asia Pacific region. Not to mention the Chip shortage with Taiwan that has impacted Supply Chain throughout the world. Crimea is nothing compared to Taiwan. If the CCP were to attack Taiwan, I believe the US would come to Taiwan's aid. Although most people in the US would not prefer this, it would hurt our credibility if we did not help Taiwan out and our allies in the region as well.

Also, most in this thread are worried about a Ukraine-Russia conflict, I would be more worried about a China conflict with Taiwan or in the South China Sea. There is already talk here in TBS about that scenario and how that could be real soon. Hence, the reason why the Marine Corps has shifted their vision and strategy by getting rid of tanks and artillery vehicles to focusing on a potential conflict in the South China Sea. Also, quite worrisome when China is flying 25 jets into your airspace, tells you something is very wrong in that region. China has the largest Navy in the world now. Militarily and economically, China poses a greater challenge to the US then say Iran, Russia, or North Korea.


www.bbc.com

Taiwan: 'Record number' of China jets enter air zone

Beijing sends 25 military aircraft into Taiwan as the US warns against an 'increasingly aggressive' China.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
 
Anguswarrior112 said:
If the CCP were to attack Taiwan, I believe the US would come to Taiwan's aid.
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There is zero doubt about this. Taiwan is the strategic lynchpin of the Asia-Pacific region, and China making any move to invade it will be met by stiff American resistance. That policy has been in place for a while. Certain administrations may rattle their sabers differently, but in the end, the U.S. is virtually obligated to defend Taiwan from a Chinese invasion.

China is ratcheting up its game of chicken. It’s scary to think about. But the Chinese threat is very real, as they’re determined to exert hegemony over the region. Let’s hope that the Chinese think the way the Soviets did about MAD. That principle helped us avert a nuclear war with the USSR. Hopefully it does the same with China.
 
Anguswarrior112 said:
Humey, Taiwan is not Crimea. Taiwan is an island with more than 23 million people, has a pretty strong military, and actually has economic and geographic importance in the Asia Pacific region. Not to mention the Chip shortage with Taiwan that has impacted Supply Chain throughout the world. Crimea is nothing compared to Taiwan. If the CCP were to attack Taiwan, I believe the US would come to Taiwan's aid. Although most people in the US would not prefer this, it would hurt our credibility if we did not help Taiwan out and our allies in the region as well.

Also, most in this thread are worried about a Ukraine-Russia conflict, I would be more worried about a China conflict with Taiwan or in the South China Sea. There is already talk here in TBS about that scenario and how that could be real soon. Hence, the reason why the Marine Corps has shifted their vision and strategy by getting rid of tanks and artillery vehicles to focusing on a potential conflict in the South China Sea. Also, quite worrisome when China is flying 25 jets into your airspace, tells you something is very wrong in that region. China has the largest Navy in the world now. Militarily and economically, China poses a greater challenge to the US then say Iran, Russia, or North Korea.


www.bbc.com

Taiwan: 'Record number' of China jets enter air zone

Beijing sends 25 military aircraft into Taiwan as the US warns against an 'increasingly aggressive' China.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
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I never said they were identical situations but I still doubt if Chinese forces were to invade Taiwan that the US would either help take back the island or help Taiwanese forces repel Chinese forces. I agree with everything you are saying and it is probably more a chicken game as both China and the US economy are intertwined. .
 
MidCakePa said:
There is zero doubt about this. Taiwan is the strategic lynchpin of the Asia-Pacific region, and China making any move to invade it will be met by stiff American resistance. That policy has been in place for a while. Certain administrations may rattle their sabers differently, but in the end, the U.S. is virtually obligated to defend Taiwan from a Chinese invasion.

China is ratcheting up its game of chicken. It’s scary to think about. But the Chinese threat is very real, as they’re determined to exert hegemony over the region. Let’s hope that the Chinese think the way the Soviets did about MAD. That principle helped us avert a nuclear war with the USSR. Hopefully it does the same with China.
Click to expand...

Currently, I think there is more than zero doubt about this.
 
That was entitled:

Russian tanks rumble towards Ukraine border - panic over video footage on motorway​

and there wasn't a single tank in that video...
 
Is it just me? And maybe it is. But my gut says we have been led to view “Russia Russia Russia “ as the enemy to our democracy and future tranquility for a decade (recent modern history). And yet while all of that misdirection was occurring, China (the other real superpower) beefed up its military with help from tech theft and other inside methods. While we were pretending not to care they became a competitor militarily. And we are pretending not to care now while they set their sites on Taiwan.
maybe it’s the nitrates in the bacon I had on my Thursday tacos tonight.
 
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