USNA summer seminar and stats

OldRetSWO said:
If you take out the candidates who are coming from NAPS and athletic recruits, the range would be substantially higher. Remember also that some areas just have better scores.
FWIW, my sister and I graduated from a high school that has among the lowest average SAT scores in my state. Number of students even taking the test is very low as most aren't planning on applying for higher education and so the scores reflect the kids who are at least thinking of moving on educationally. The last average score I saw (a few years ago) was below 900 combined. While that agrees with your statement about relationship to income, it is not absolute as there are folks who still manage to do OK on the tests without being well to do or wealthy.
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As single income family of 5, we can't afford to pay any activity outside public school. Kids managed to learn rather efficiently from public school and supplemented by online resources (Khan Academy). Some rich family do send kids to SAT prep classes --- not all of them are doing well. Not like violin/piano some music lessons -- you need to be rich to pay good ones -- high school subjects (even colleges DS has been taking MIT opencourseware since junior year) are free online.
 
OldRetSWO said:
If you take out the candidates who are coming from NAPS and athletic recruits, the range would be substantially higher. Remember also that some areas just have better scores.
FWIW, my sister and I graduated from a high school that has among the lowest average SAT scores in my state. Number of students even taking the test is very low as most aren't planning on applying for higher education and so the scores reflect the kids who are at least thinking of moving on educationally. The last average score I saw (a few years ago) was below 900 combined. While that agrees with your statement about relationship to income, it is not absolute as there are folks who still manage to do OK on the tests without being well to do or wealthy.
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Of course it's not an absolute, but we are talking about candidates scoring 1400+ in many cases on the SAT's. Being in the 95th + percentile is far above "ok". I am not trying to get on the "Everybody wins" bandwagon, but several studies have shown that the higher the family income, the higher the score. It's also a documented phenomenon that wealthy whites are more likely to get a 504 designation to have an accommodation for additional time to complete the SAT, that doesn't match the numbers of HS students that have IEP's or similar and doesn't go on your transcript. Lastly, since NAPS doesn't have to complete a new application to Annapolis (only apply for new noms) would those SAT #'s count?
 
Not sure if it is still the same, but we had to take the SAT while at NAPS as part of the program.

Back in the day ....... the SAT was still a 1600 max score, but if you got an answer wrong, it counted against your score. I had an 1160 (which translates to mid-1200's now) in my high school time, but got a 1320 while at NAPS (probably translates to near 1400 now). I was an enlisted who had been out of school a few years.

Most of my NAPS classmates who were priors had come straight from nuke school. I'd say they were probably pretty high in the SAT range.
 
USMC Crayons said:
Of course it's not an absolute, but we are talking about candidates scoring 1400+ in many cases on the SAT's. Being in the 95th + percentile is far above "ok". I am not trying to get on the "Everybody wins" bandwagon, but several studies have shown that the higher the family income, the higher the score. It's also a documented phenomenon that wealthy whites are more likely to get a 504 designation to have an accommodation for additional time to complete the SAT, that doesn't match the numbers of HS students that have IEP's or similar and doesn't go on your transcript. Lastly, since NAPS doesn't have to complete a new application to Annapolis (only apply for new noms) would those SAT #'s count?
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USNA does not accept accomodations for additional time or really any IEPs that I know of. As far as I know after three decades as a BGO, those numbers do indeed count.
Note that the numbers I am listing are what I see in a state that is rated very highly for its public education. As I said in an earlier post, we have ten high schools in the state that AVERAGE over 1360 on the SATs. Most of those ten are magnet schools which each county has and there are kids from all income levels.
 
USMC Crayons said:
That may be true, but in my opinion a test like the SAT that heavily favors the wealthy and well to do isn't exactly the best gauge for who will be a great naval officer. Is that not what the service academies mission is? If the SAT were so important to Annapolis, the SAT 25th to 75th range would certainly be higher than 610-700. That's on the lower end considering Annapolis' academic rankings.
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I disagree with this.

My son took it once, his family is not rich, and his score was 1560. But that was only part of his record. Everything else in his application was top notch beyond the SATs.

It is easy to assume candidates with lower scores have better records outside the standardized tests. You simply do not and cannot know this.
 
A1Janitor said:
I disagree with this.

My son took it once, his family is not rich, and his score was 1560. But that was only part of his record. Everything else in his application was top notch beyond the SATs.

It is easy to assume candidates with lower scores have better records outside the standardized tests. You simply do not and cannot know this.
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Same here, my son has been working to support his family with two jobs (lifeguard and swim coach) -- he costs me nothing other than a roof over his head and food on his table -- likely much less than what he brings to our family.
 
A1Janitor said:
I disagree with this.

My son took it once, his family is not rich, and his score was 1560. But that was only part of his record. Everything else in his application was top notch beyond the SATs.

It is easy to assume candidates with lower scores have better records outside the standardized tests. You simply do not and cannot know this.
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You do realize that a student taking the SAT once and scoring in the 99.5th percentile is a huge outlier correct? That's something like the top 6000 test takers out of 2.13MM +/-. That can't really be used as a point of argument. I mean, congrats to your son for being a genius, but it's not really relevant here.
 
USMC Crayons said:
You do realize that a student taking the SAT once and scoring in the 99.5th percentile is a huge outlier correct? That's something like the top 6000 test takers out of 2.13MM +/-. That can't really be used as a point of argument. I mean, congrats to your son for being a genius, but it's not really relevant here.
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But that is what his competition on his slate faced.

Should people on his slate assume he had an advantage because of the color of his skin, or that his parents were rich? Or that the other part of their applications were better than his except the SATs?

That is what I am getting at.
 
OldRetSWO said:
USNA does not accept accomodations for additional time or really any IEPs that I know of. As far as I know after three decades as a BGO, those numbers do indeed count.
Note that the numbers I am listing are what I see in a state that is rated very highly for its public education. As I said in an earlier post, we have ten high schools in the state that AVERAGE over 1360 on the SATs. Most of those ten are magnet schools which each county has and there are kids from all income levels.
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504's aren't disclosed on transcripts under federal law. It's one of the areas abused by the standardized test industrial complex.
 
A1Janitor said:
But that is what his competition on his slate faced.

Should people on his slate assume he had an advantage because of the color of his skin, or that his parents were rich? Or that the other part of their applications were better than his except the SATs?

That is what I am getting at.
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This is not the point of my original argument. If you refer back, I simply stated that MOC's are too hyper-focused on standardized scores. If you are using a cut line for scores to basically eliminate candidates, that's a shame. If we can't agree at some granular level that a significant amount of candidates have stacked resumes that could only be achieved with $$$, then I guess we have nothing to talk about. One example, where I am if you are playing multiple varsity sports (or even one sport), you would almost certainly have to have been involved in year round clubs, private coaching, etc. That takes big bucks. For almost every varsity sport in our area, you aren't getting a letter unless you have that sort of help/background.
 
While important, the SAT/ACT scores are not necessarily the determining factor in acceptance, whether to NASS or USNA. We have seen tons of anecdotal evidence of applicants with perfect/near perfect test scores and academics that do not receive offers. As mentioned ad nauseum, NASS acceptance/declination is not an indicator of USNA acceptance/declination. They are two different animals.

The best advice I can give to a candidate is to be top tier in every category.

SAT score above 75th percentile?: check
Academic class rank: check (ideally #1, but at least top 1-5%)
Multi-year varsity athlete?: check
Captain of team?: check
High level athlete?: check (ideally D-1 recruit, but at least D-III level)
Multi-year student government?: check
Band/Performing Arts/School Publication?: check
Meaningful extracurriculars?: check (high level jrotc/scouting/4-H/boys-girls state/tutoring/community service leadership, etc.)
Employment?: check

If a candidate can put together a profile that meets virtually all of those criteria, they have a good shot at an offer. Obviously, the greater the level of accomplishment in any category the greater the bump in the odds. A 1600 SAT helps. Being ranked #1 out of 300 helps. Being multi-sport varsity, captain of multiple teams, state champion, blue-chip recruit helps. Being student government, captain of the science team, and newspaper editor at the same time helps. And so on and so forth.

Some observers will say that the combination of that level of accomplishment is not realistic. However, the truth is that many candidates have those kinds of resumes and those are the ones against whom you are competing. Can you get in without hitting those marks? Sure, depending on circumstances completely outside of your control. But if you want to maximize your chances, try to hit virtually all of them.
 
USMC Crayons said:
This is not the point of my original argument. If you refer back, I simply stated that MOC's are too hyper-focused on standardized scores. If you are using a cut line for scores to basically eliminate candidates, that's a shame. If we can't agree at some granular level that a significant amount of candidates have stacked resumes that could only be achieved with $$$, then I guess we have nothing to talk about. One example, where I am if you are playing multiple varsity sports (or even one sport), you would almost certainly have to have been involved in year round clubs, private coaching, etc. That takes big bucks. For almost every varsity sport in our area, you aren't getting a letter unless you have that sort of help/background.
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I don’t dispute differences in regional districts.

My son was a three sport starting athlete/captain - and on varsity ten years total.

Luckily for me the only sport he did outside of school was AAU basketball for like 7years straight. Some overnight trips - but the cost for AAU basketball wasn’t bad.

Local parents always complained about travel hockey. My twin brother said he paid a lot for his daughter for travel swimming.
 
I think good essays and a good interview also are important for an well-rounded college application, especially to top schools. Why should they choose you over the many other applicants with stellar academic stats, test scores, leadership positions, varsity letters, etc.?
 
@Ivy22 I have seen you note the importance of good essays many times on this forum, and always find that an interesting comment. How would you have formulated such an opinion? Have you asked people what they wrote about on their common app, or have other anecdotal evidence to support this?
 
SeePower said:
@Ivy22 I have seen you note the importance of good essays many times on this forum, and always find that an interesting comment. How would you have formulated such an opinion? Have you asked people what they wrote about on their common app, or have other anecdotal evidence to support this?
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I think the BGOs and people on this site who sit on panels have mentioned this.

Of course - the high achievers can write good essays too. ;)
 
A1Janitor said:
I don’t dispute differences in regional districts.

My son was a three sport starting athlete/captain - and on varsity ten years total.

Luckily for me the only sport he did outside of school was AAU basketball for like 7years straight. Some overnight trips - but the cost for AAU basketball wasn’t bad.

Local parents always complained about travel hockey. My twin brother said he paid a lot for his daughter for travel swimming.
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I'm glad you brought up AAU. I was wanting some advice on this. My son is a junior and has played varsity basketball for 3 years (team made it to state semi's last year) and plays varsity lacrosse. But, he has also played AAU basketball every spring and summer for the last several years. Does USNA take spring and summer sports into consideration as well?
 
Waitandsee said:
I'm glad you brought up AAU. I was wanting some advice on this. My son is a junior and has played varsity basketball for 3 years (team made it to state semi's last year) and plays varsity lacrosse. But, he has also played AAU basketball every spring and summer for the last several years. Does USNA take spring and summer sports into consideration as well?
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As far as I know - it’s just another ECA/potential leadership.
 
SeePower said:
@Ivy22 I have seen you note the importance of good essays many times on this forum, and always find that an interesting comment. How would you have formulated such an opinion? Have you asked people what they wrote about on their common app, or have other anecdotal evidence to support this?
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Pretty much every admissions panel for the top schools I went to in high school during my college application process mentioned the importance of essays. The panels had admissions officers on them, so I guess they probably know a thing or two about how to get into their schools. Not hard to connect the dots on that
 
And I note it a lot here because it tends to be one of the parts on the application that isn’t talked about too much on these forums.

Lots of talk about stats, which definitely matter a ton in process, don’t get me wrong on that. When hundreds, maybe thousands, of other applicants also have similar stats as you or better, how do you stand out among the sea of seemingly perfect resumés? The SAs and top civilian schools don’t have enough room in their incoming class to admit every applicant with a 4.0/1600, so you need to make your case on why they should choose you for that spot.
 
Navyaddict said:
I am a high school junior and just recently started looking into USNA around mid-February. I know it's kind of late now to be improving my stats to even have a chance of getting in, but looking into the academy and seeing everything they offer lit something inside of me and it's making me a little crazy lol. It isn't a short-term infatuation either, I'm not completely sure why but I just want to do everything I can to be able to get into this academy and into the summer program. From all my research I understand that the summer seminar doesn't decide whether you have a good chance of getting into the academy or not but getting in would be a huge motivation and a step toward my goal.

Because I just recently have come to decide that USNA was where I wanted to go in the future my stats aren't the best compared to many others but they are not the worst either

My school has no rank system but it is an extremely competitive school

Weighted GPA: 3.5
Unweight GPA: 3.7
APs: AP World, AP Seminar, AP Composition, AP Calculus AB
In my senior year, I am planning to take AP Photography, AP French, AP Physics, and AP Statistics or AP Precalc

Some current classes I have taken or am taking now I would like to mention are Earth Science, Living Environment w lab, Chemistry w lab, Regent Physics w Lab, Intro to Engineering, and Civil Engineering and Architecture
I have also taken all the required math classes before AP Calculus AB because I am in the double Excel program

My PSAT score: 1360
630 Reading and Writing 730 Math

My ACT score: 31
30 Math 29 Science 28 English 35 Reading
I plan to retake this and try to get a 34-35 score

For School Clubs:
I am a candidate for NAHS
I am a member of the Engineering Club (Just Started going)

For my sports:
I have been on the Varsity Swim Team for 3 years so far (and hope to get captain my senior year)
I swam a lot outside school too until the end of Freshman year when I had to get jaw surgery so I stopped but I still swim in school
I was awarded MIP by my coach
I have received Divison and County awards throughout my three years
I also do boxing outside of school (no competitions though)

For my extracurricular:
Before I decided to choose the NAVY, a lot of my focus went toward art so I have many years of art experience
I have won 2 gold keys in Scholastic Arts, and a couple of silvers too
I attended a pre-college at SVA for interior design
I attended a pre-college at RISD for architecture
I attended a pre-college for Debate called VBI
I think I am part of the Debate Honor Society (Not sure of this yet)

Community service:
A lot of this I just recently started because I understood how important this was for the academy and how important it was to help the community
Graphic designer for a non-profit organization (I had been doing this for a while before I even decided on USNA)
Volunteer at my local library (only about 3 hours)
A volunteer tutor (I tutor about 2-3 hours a week) (8 hours currently)
A volunteer at my local food bank (about ten hours now)
A volunteer at a local teaching place (about twelve hours now) (I do 6 hours a week and just started two weeks ago lol)

Extra stuff:
I have my lifeguarding certificate and a swim instructor certificate

Any tips on improving my stats would be greatly appreciated.
Also, What are my chances of getting into NASS?
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I wouldn’t stress at all on stats for NASS.
When I applied last year I only had a 1000 PSAT score and I took Algebra 2, I didn’t even take the SAT yet at the time. And I was accepted in the very first wave of NASS acceptances or however you want to call it.

And it’s never too late to apply for NASS. My friend from my high school who has similar stats to mine applied on the very last day of the application being open and was given a spot at NASS.

The biggest thing is the personal statement that you write. Make sure the statement shows your genuine interest in attending NASS.

And for your preferences for workshops I highly recommend Damage Control, by far the best workshop there.
 
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