Benefits/Drawbacks of Validating Calculus?

[sktr127]

so i know that validation at USMA happens when you take USMA’s test for the course during Beast, and if you do good on it, they let you move up. I also have learned that there are specific courses that you can validate with an AP Exam score, one of them being the econs/business course with a 5 on AP Macro (which i will be taking & hopefully i get a 5). For math however, you must take USMA’s placement test during Beast.
I have seen a lot of info that contradicts this, but this is what we were told at SLE :O


My questions are these:

Is there a limit to the highest math you can validate? I’m taking multi variable calculus (Calc 3) right now, and I’m not sure what the highest math course is at USMA, though i’m sure they have Linear Algebra & Differential Equations equivalents as well.

I want to branch either Cybersecurity or Military Intelligence, so will getting ahead in math help me be a top choice for being selected into the cyber branch?

I know that plebe year is very rough, especially in terms of academics, so validating to a higher course would only make life harder. However, is it advisable to do it if I can have better chances of getting the career I want after I graduate?

Any & all insight is appreciated!

 

[jl123]

The USMA math department is very good at placing cadets in the appropriate level of math. In general, it is a good idea to accept that wisdom. However, it is up to the cadet to decide whether that placement is appropriate.

Here is my opinion:

• The main advantage to higher math placement/validation is to free up space for future courses, either in math or another field of study. This is especially useful for cadets wanting to add a minor, more courses in a particular field, or those that choose a major that has more core courses than others.
• Validating courses will not get you a better branch. USMA academics are rigorous, especially math. The standard math sequence is STEM math. Do well and you enhance your branch choices, whether or not you validated courses.
• Unlike high school, there are no weighted grades at USMA for advanced courses. An "A" is an "A" and "B" is a "B" period.
• Jedi Math is very rigorous. Those not truly prepared will find it hellish. Case in point - a very bright cadet I know was borderline Jedi Math placement and went into Jedi math. He struggled, but through many hours of late night and weekend study he did well, getting an A in the courses. However, he then chose to major in Political Science and ended up graduating near the top of the class. Was it really worth it for him to Jedi math? He did get to add an elective of interest to him, but Plebe year was a bit more difficult because of it.
• The bottom line - if you feel confident in your math skills and USMA recommends advanced placement/validation, go for it. If you are not confident in your math skills, consider whether Jedi math is the right track for you.
• You can always drop down from Jedi math to standard math, but you can't go the other way.

 

[vipercrew]

One thing to consider. Pleab year math has a heavier weight on the total Cadet score than other courses. Branching is based on this. Also know that USMA has a sliding scale for GPA. 4.33 is the max for an A+, 4.0 for an A and 3.67 for an A-, etc. Pleab year is also stressful outside of academics. My DS chose not to validate Math even though he took Calc2/3 in High School, and has an A+ in his Pleab Math class. We attended Parents weekend went to his Math class, and observed that there were several students who were struggling with the content. So even though its the "entry" level class, it is difficult, so having bit of review is not a bad thing at all. Since my DS has a high grade in the class, they offered a compressed Calc1/2 class to him next semester. So in the end, he will still accelerate his Math while easing into to his first semester. I would by no means say the is the right way for every situation. It just so happens to have worked for him. He plans to major in Mech Eng. but want to Branch Infantry... hooah.

Edit.

Adding the Red Book link for more info on the Academics at West Point:

https://courses.westpoint.edu/static/index.htm#t=AcademicProgram.htm

 

[DrMom]

Do the best you can on the placement exams. You are going to take Math. Just do your best.

 

[sktr127]

The USMA math department is very good at placing cadets in the appropriate level of math. In general, it is a good idea to accept that wisdom. However, it is up to the cadet to decide whether that placement is appropriate.

Here is my opinion:

• The main advantage to higher math placement/validation is to free up space for future courses, either in math or another field of study. This is especially useful for cadets wanting to add a minor, more courses in a particular field, or those that choose a major that has more core courses than others.
• Validating courses will not get you a better branch. USMA academics are rigorous, especially math. The standard math sequence is STEM math. Do well and you enhance your branch choices, whether or not you validated courses.
• Unlike high school, there are no weighted grades at USMA for advanced courses. An "A" is an "A" and "B" is a "B" period.
• Jedi Math is very rigorous. Those not truly prepared will find it hellish. Case in point - a very bright cadet I know was borderline Jedi Math placement and went into Jedi math. He struggled, but through many hours of late night and weekend study he did well, getting an A in the courses. However, he then chose to major in Political Science and ended up graduating near the top of the class. Was it really worth it for him to Jedi math? He did get to add an elective of interest to him, but Plebe year was a bit more difficult because of it.
• The bottom line - if you feel confident in your math skills and USMA recommends advanced placement/validation, go for it. If you are not confident in your math skills, consider whether Jedi math is the right track for you.
• You can always drop down from Jedi math to standard math, but you can't go the other way.

Ohh I see, thank you so much! I was under the impression more higher level courses would make you a better candidate for the related branch.

 

[sktr127]

One thing to consider. Pleab year math has a heavier weight on the total Cadet score than other courses. Branching is based on this. Also know that USMA has a sliding scale for GPA. 4.33 is the max for an A+, 4.0 for an A and 3.67 for an A-, etc. Pleab year is also stressful outside of academics. My DS chose not to validate Math even though he took Calc2/3 in High School, and has an A+ in his Pleab Math class. We attended Parents weekend went to his Math class, and observed that there were several students who were struggling with the content. So even though its the "entry" level class, it is difficult, so having bit of review is not a bad thing at all. Since my DS has a high grade in the class, they offered a compressed Calc1/2 class to him next semester. So in the end, he will still accelerate his Math while easing into to his first semester. I would by no means say the is the right way for every situation. It just so happens to have worked for him. He plans to major in Mech Eng. but want to Branch Infantry... hooah.

Edit.

Adding the Red Book link for more info on the Academics at West Point:

https://courses.westpoint.edu/static/index.htm#t=AcademicProgram.htm

Oh that's interesting, I didn't know that was offered! Yeah it sounds like a good idea to take the rest of Plebe year into consideration LOL.

 

[MidCakePa]

Pleab year math has a heavier weight on the total Cadet score than other courses. Branching is based on this. Also know that USMA has a sliding scale for GPA. 4.33 is the max for an A+, 4.0 for an A and 3.67 for an A-, etc. Pleab year is also stressful outside of academics. My DS chose not to validate Math even though he took Calc2/3 in High School, and has an A+ in his Pleab Math class.

Is there a Pleab spelling class? Asking for a friend.

 

[A1Janitor]

Is there a Pleab spelling class? Asking for a friend.

I got stuck on “doing good on it.”

 

[toomuchtimeonmyhands]

From what I remember, people who were in jedi math were also in "advanced physics." And not gonna lie, I felt that the jedi math/advanced physics classes were A LOT easier, despite the many hours of studying and additional instruction from the instructors. I remember my classmates asking me for help on their math and physics (they were in the normal classes) and literally remember thinking WTF is this. The jedi/advanced courses are supposed to be almost the same, except a bit more accelerated/in-depth but the normal/basic courses had me stumped.

If you are interested in computer science, talk to your IT105 (if that's what it is still called) or talk to an instructor in the EECS department once plebe year starts. If you have availability in your second semester schedule, they can slot you into a one of the starting courses for computer science majors. You'll be in a class full of mostly yearlings, but it gives you a head start on your computer science major, potentially giving you more time/opportunities for other electives/courses later in your cadet career

 

[DTT!FSA!]

Is there a Pleab spelling class? Asking for a friend.

I got stuck on “doing good on it.”

Hmmm, I think that is a "-1" to both of you for needless snark and implicit hypocrisy in calling out trivial spelling and grammar errors. I don't think that either of you can claim a perfect presentation record in either area.

 

[A1Janitor]

Hmmm, I think that is a "-1" to both of you for needless snark and implicit hypocrisy in calling out trivial spelling and grammar errors. I don't think that either of you can claim a perfect presentation record in either area.

Making a joke on a SAF hopefully gently hints to OP and future readers that spelling and grammar matter.

I used to correct my son in his communications with me - sometimes without humor - to get him to be less careless in his communications. Probably being the son of an English professor … and being a bad writer myself (youngest of a family of 8 - and likely the worst one in English).

Rather have it handled this way than admissions having a bad first impression.

I certainly didn’t mean to harm OP, and apologize if taken that way.

 

[JuiceBox]

so i know that validation at USMA happens when you take USMA’s test for the course during Beast, and if you do good on it, they let you move up. I also have learned that there are specific courses that you can validate with an AP Exam score, one of them being the econs/business course with a 5 on AP Macro (which i will be taking & hopefully i get a 5). For math however, you must take USMA’s placement test during Beast.
I have seen a lot of info that contradicts this, but this is what we were told at SLE :O


My questions are these:

Is there a limit to the highest math you can validate? I’m taking multi variable calculus (Calc 3) right now, and I’m not sure what the highest math course is at USMA, though i’m sure they have Linear Algebra & Differential Equations equivalents as well.

I want to branch either Cybersecurity or Military Intelligence, so will getting ahead in math help me be a top choice for being selected into the cyber branch?

I know that plebe year is very rough, especially in terms of academics, so validating to a higher course would only make life harder. However, is it advisable to do it if I can have better chances of getting the career I want after I graduate?

Any & all insight is appreciated!

Plebe here.
1) Assuming the validation process will be the same next year, you will be asked to take online placement tests before beast.
2) You can validate MA103, which is the introductory course to math modeling, with (IIRC) a 4 or higher in AP CALC AB or BC, which will place you into MA153 (jedi, another math modeling class). Note that you will still have to take a math placement tests even if you performed well on the previously mentioned exams. Otherwise, they'll likely place you into what they think you will do well in, which may or may not be jedi.
3) It is possible to validate the multi-variable calculus class here, though. The issue with doing this is that you will not know the standards for that class (ie. what will actually grant you points towards your final score). I think that the grade that you get, assuming it is a passing one, is your grade for that class.
4) I have not spent much time here, so I really don't know if it's worth validating the multi-variable calculus class, but I would say it is worth trying.
5) Is it worth taking jedi math/validating classes?
It is true that it will decrease the amount of math courses you take here by one, but if you validate other classes, like I have, it will make plebe year (or, at the very least, first semester) significantly harder. I struggled with the transition from beast to the academic year (AY), despite being a pretty solid student throughout high school.
From what I understand, you are required to take a set number of classes every semester, so validating certain ones will not lighten your workload (unless you happen to get objectively easier classes), as the staff who is in control of the schedules will simply push some classes up to replace the validated ones. The content of jedi math is not that difficult, but there are some significantly higher standards when compared to MA103 (aside from harder content, the class moves very quickly, and the projects are more complex). As jl123 and vipercrew have mentioned, jedi math does not weigh more than MA103, so a 90 in jedi will have the same effect as a 90 in MA103.

Good luck with your application and enjoy your final year of high school.

 

[sktr127]

From what I remember, people who were in jedi math were also in "advanced physics." And not gonna lie, I felt that the jedi math/advanced physics classes were A LOT easier, despite the many hours of studying and additional instruction from the instructors. I remember my classmates asking me for help on their math and physics (they were in the normal classes) and literally remember thinking WTF is this. The jedi/advanced courses are supposed to be almost the same, except a bit more accelerated/in-depth but the normal/basic courses had me stumped.

If you are interested in computer science, talk to your IT105 (if that's what it is still called) or talk to an instructor in the EECS department once plebe year starts. If you have availability in your second semester schedule, they can slot you into a one of the starting courses for computer science majors. You'll be in a class full of mostly yearlings, but it gives you a head start on your computer science major, potentially giving you more time/opportunities for other electives/courses later in your cadet career

Thank you! Yeah, I understand the basic classes being harder than the advanced classes because that’s what the calc ap exams are like. Objectively, the AB exam is usually harder than the BC exam because even tho AB has less topics to cover, the questions are all the more in depth & complicated to test ur understanding of the concept. The pass rate for BC is also a lot higher, with around 40% getting 5s.

 

[sktr127]

Plebe here.
1) Assuming the validation process will be the same next year, you will be asked to take online placement tests before beast.
2) You can validate MA103, which is the introductory course to math modeling, with (IIRC) a 4 or higher in AP CALC AB or BC, which will place you into MA153 (jedi, another math modeling class). Note that you will still have to take a math placement tests even if you performed well on the previously mentioned exams. Otherwise, they'll likely place you into what they think you will do well in, which may or may not be jedi.
3) It is possible to validate the multi-variable calculus class here, though. The issue with doing this is that you will not know the standards for that class (ie. what will actually grant you points towards your final score). I think that the grade that you get, assuming it is a passing one, is your grade for that class.
4) I have not spent much time here, so I really don't know if it's worth validating the multi-variable calculus class, but I would say it is worth trying.
5) Is it worth taking jedi math/validating classes?
It is true that it will decrease the amount of math courses you take here by one, but if you validate other classes, like I have, it will make plebe year (or, at the very least, first semester) significantly harder. I struggled with the transition from beast to the academic year (AY), despite being a pretty solid student throughout high school.
From what I understand, you are required to take a set number of classes every semester, so validating certain ones will not lighten your workload (unless you happen to get objectively easier classes), as the staff who is in control of the schedules will simply push some classes up to replace the validated ones. The content of jedi math is not that difficult, but there are some significantly higher standards when compared to MA103 (aside from harder content, the class moves very quickly, and the projects are more complex). As jl123 and vipercrew have mentioned, jedi math does not weigh more than MA103, so a 90 in jedi will have the same effect as a 90 in MA103.

Good luck with your application and enjoy your final year of high school.

Thank you! I didn’t know the placement tests were online lol, I thought they were pen & paper. BTW is there a certain score that you need to get on it to validate a course? Or do you need to get all the problems correct loll

Yeah, during the academic information seminar at SLE they made sure to stress the fact that validating classes only makes your work load harder, even tho you’re technically “getting out of a class”. When you mentioned that the standards of Jedi would be unknown, I started thinking about if they all have the same curriculum because I know some classes don’t cover all of the content or have different definitions of what’s covered in the class. Are you in Jedi currently? The last thing we learned before our midterm next Friday is Gauss Green Theorem & its applications & the last thing we’re learning in the class before our final is Stokes’ Theorem. Is it the same for Jedi?
BTW I’ve attached the validation criteria that we were shown during SLE just in case anyone is curious.

 

[JuiceBox]

Thank you! I didn’t know the placement tests were online lol, I thought they were pen & paper. BTW is there a certain score that you need to get on it to validate a course? Or do you need to get all the problems correct loll

Yeah, during the academic information seminar at SLE they made sure to stress the fact that validating classes only makes your work load harder, even tho you’re technically “getting out of a class”. When you mentioned that the standards of Jedi would be unknown, I started thinking about if they all have the same curriculum because I know some classes don’t cover all of the content or have different definitions of what’s covered in the class. Are you in Jedi currently? The last thing we learned before our midterm next Friday is Gauss Green Theorem & its applications & the last thing we’re learning in the class before our final is Stokes’ Theorem. Is it the same for Jedi?
BTW I’ve attached the validation criteria that we were shown during SLE just in case anyone is curious.

You likely just need a certain score on the placement test to be placed into jedi math.
Regarding the validation test for multi-variable calculus, I meant that the course standards of the class would be unknown to the person who is trying to validate the class. You may miss out on some points solely because you didn't do/show some work that would grant you points.
Yes, I am in jedi math. No, we have not gone over those topics in jedi. Jedi is supposed to be an advanced version of MA103, which are both modeling with math (primarily with differential equations) classes. It is not a regular calculus class.

 

[sktr127]

You likely just need a certain score on the placement test to be placed into jedi math.
Regarding the validation test for multi-variable calculus, I meant that the course standards of the class would be unknown to the person who is trying to validate the class. You may miss out on some points solely because you didn't do/show some work that would grant you points.
Yes, I am in jedi math. No, we have not gone over those topics in jedi. Jedi is supposed to be an advanced version of MA103, which are both modeling with math (primarily with differential equations) classes. It is not a regular calculus class.

Ohh I understand. Thank you! I just watched this video I found & it talks more about the MA135 curriculum, and none of it is what we’re learning currently lol. We’ve studied Diff. EQs in Calc BC but not much in Calc 3.

 

[SA25]

Cow here.
I took Jedi math as a plebe, and it was one of my worst academic mistakes are WP. My advice would be to not take Jedi math unless you want to major in something that is math heavy. The class is SIGNIFICANTLY harder than regular math (especially second semester, in my opinion), and it does not reduce the number of math classes you will take unless you are required to take additional math classes for your major. Jedi math was my worst grade plebe year by nearly an entire letter grade which severely impacted my class rank. Additionally, once I was in the class the department would not let me drop down to regular math.

 

[sktr127]

Cow here.
I took Jedi math as a plebe, and it was one of my worst academic mistakes are WP. My advice would be to not take Jedi math unless you want to major in something that is math heavy. The class is SIGNIFICANTLY harder than regular math (especially second semester, in my opinion), and it does not reduce the number of math classes you will take unless you are required to take additional math classes for your major. Jedi math was my worst grade plebe year by nearly an entire letter grade which severely impacted my class rank. Additionally, once I was in the class the department would not let me drop down to regular math.

I understand.
Is there no other class between regular calculus & Jedi? Like there's no in between, only those 2?
Why did they not let you drop down to regular? I thought someone else on this thread mentioned that you could drop down, but you couldn't move up.
If you qualify for Jedi or any advanced math after the R-day placement exam, do you have to take that class or do they give you an option of either taking the advanced one or the regular one??

 

[JuiceBox]

I understand.
Is there no other class between regular calculus & Jedi? Like there's no in between, only those 2?
Why did they not let you drop down to regular? I thought someone else on this thread mentioned that you could drop down, but you couldn't move up.
If you qualify for Jedi or any advanced math after the R-day placement exam, do you have to take that class or do they give you an option of either taking the advanced one or the regular one??

Well, there are technically three math classes for plebes: MA100 ("rock math"), MA103 (regular math), and MA153 (jedi). MA100 is usually for cadets who were prior enlisted, haven't been to school in a few years before attending West Point, or did not do well enough on the placement exam to be placed into MA103. So yes, there is no in-between.
This semester (AY 24-1), we were actually given the option drop down from the jedi program after the first exam, which usually takes place around two to three weeks after the first day of school. I believe this was only permitted for those who did not do well, and is the only opportunity to drop down to the regular math program.

 

[ldrship]

If you're a math rockstar and have taken some serious HS math and do well on the entry exam, you'll go to Jedi
The only validations I have seen are those who have taken college level math at a top university and earned an A. In this case, I've seen multiple math courses validated to open up slots for more advanced math plebe year. Welcome to yuk prob and stats, plebe.