Cadet Suspended from West Point after getting beaten by Singers entourage

Several folks have pointed out the obvious- we don't know either the entire situation at IAH nor do we know - and should not know- what this cadets record is. I am fairly certain that the Superintendant and Commandant however have plenty of justification for their actions

It's pretty discouraging to me that people on this forum are so ready to believe the absolute worst of the senior leadership of the USArmy- so let me ask the parents of future military officers posting this way on this subject: HOW can you send your sons off to war in an Army in which you truly have so little faith? What are you going to be like wh en your son or daughter comes home wounded or even worse when you can't believe that a LTG and BG of the USArmyhave considered the circumstances before imposing punishment on this cadet?
Folks- IMHO you either believe that the officers of the Army basically are fair and possess sound judgement- or you really should consider whether you are prepared to see your kids as part of the Army. Based on my experience- those decisions were made with a great deal of background information and a great deal of consideration for the entire picture. They are not however obliged to share this with the internet.

Not only are they not obliged to share with the internet, if it is an administrative action, they are not legally able to share. Of course, the cadet can grant them permission, but this has not happened. That is why the WP public affairs office cannot go into greater detail....privacy.
 
Bruno - Well said.

Hard to believe that there is 9 pages ....of mostly speculation.

Can't be THAT hard to believe.... news channels have to fill 24 hours 7 days a week with speculation...
 
I can see the news channels....that is their JOB (Emphasis on the sarcasm:thumb:)

Given that some of these post go to great lengths in their analysis of the issue, maybe we should start a sub-forum on "how to find a hobby" :rolleyes:
When I first posted this thread, I was initially reacting to the idea that someone could get the tar knocked out of them in a public loading area and then have the police support the actions of the people who appear to be aggressors in a surveillance video.

The other issue was that the person who was beaten was also a West Point Cadet who was now facing serious disciplinary action. If you read my posts, I have always stated that West Point must have had reasons to act against Mr. King as they did, but that I hoped it was not solely based upon the events at the Houston airport.

Finally, everyone has a different take on these things, there is no need for sarcasm or derision. We should be able to respectfully agree or disagree.
 
This is like tv too. Don't like what you are viewing you have the option to view something else. There are hundreds of threads going on this site...use the mouse like you would use the remote control.

Personally, I have enjoyed reading this thread until now. It is very interesting to see how people are viewing the situation. As falcon stated, some are talking about the legalities of the lawsuit, some are talking about what the cadet physically went through and some are discussing their opinions regarding WP's position.

I do agree with Bruno and Flieger. WP IMPO did not do a knee jerk reaction, and many people lost sight that they actually were investigating this situation for months, not 4 days. If you want to be a part of the military life you need to realize there are reasons for the silence. It is not a cover up. It is just the regs.

Finally, I also see value in this thread as a learning tool for our candidates/cadets. It is important that they understand every action will cause a reaction, and to never assume that because you are on leave that you can be the typical young adult. You are 1st and foremost a cadet that represents the US military academy.

Just my 0.02 cents.
 
Sarcasm, derision, agreement, disagreement all for free. Where can you express your opinion? Great forum, not always right/wrong.
 
I think the problem is; some people are stating "passionate" opinions, about something they don't know about fully. There's too many assumption, yet the same passionate people don't seem to want to look at any of the "What ifs".

1. What if: The part of the surveillance video that doesn't have the parties involved in sight, somehow is shown that King indeed threw the first punch?
2. What if: King indeed had more than just a couple drinks, and was indeed intoxicated?
3. What if: West point did in fact do a thorough investigation, and because of King's "Past performance/actions" the decision they made was appropriate?

I'm not saying any of this is true; simply that we DON'T KNOW the whole story, and it's possible that some of these things, or similar, could in fact be true. The problem however, is that too many people look at a video, assume that THEY ARE SPECIAL AND PRIVY to knowing all things about the case, and therefor West Point undoubtedly is making a mistake by disciplining King and suspending him from the academy.

I will bet you my entire yearly salary, that west point knows MORE ABOUT THIS CASE, than ANYONE on this forum. And West Point's actions against King COULD VERY WELL BE based solely on the air port incident. Again; you're assuming because YOU saw a video, that you know ALL THE FACTS. You don't.

But the point by Bruno and others, is that some here have such a high distrust against West Point, because they believe West Point doesn't know AS MUCH as some of the posters here. And I agree, it is very discouraging that there is this distrust. Just like an individual is "Suppose" to be considered innocent until proven guilty.... Well; West Point needs to be trusted, and given the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise. The number one reason our military is as successful as it is, is because of the trust that subordinates have for those appointed over them. It's a blind trust until proven otherwise. It has to be. And Bruno and other's feeling are: If you don't have this trust for West Point and our military, then how can you condone your child attending such a military institution. Hopefully, those who actually APPLY to the academy; and not their parents; have a more trusting attitude towards the academies and our military. If they don't, then they really need to reconsider attending the academy and serving in the military. Without this trust, we can't succeed.

Opinions are great. We can agree and disagree. You wanted us to be able to "RESPECTFULLY" agree or disagree. I can appreciate that. I have to tell you however, my position on that. I CAN NOT respect an opinion that is uneducated. Sorry; can't do it. Example: I am pro-life. I was having a heated debate with someone of the opposing position. In the middle of this debate, a "FRIEND" tried to take my side of the argument and help me defend my point. I had to stop him and tell him frankly; "I respect the person I'm debating with, MORE than I respect your position". My friend was shocked. He was a follower; a lemming; someone jumping on a bandwagon. The person i was debating, did their homework. They researched the topic. He had facts and figures. "HE HAD AN EDUCATED OPINION". I can respect that. Even if i don't agree with it.

Well, unfortunately, threads like these are not EDUCATED. Neither side knows all the facts. Now, if a person says: "If west point ....." or "If they find out ....." type of statements, that's understandable. But a large percentage of opinions are accusing west point of being wrong. And this is without the poster knowing all the facts. I think that's the problem.
 
3. What if: West point did in fact do a thorough investigation, and because of King's "Past performance/actions" the decision they made was appropriate?

There's no "what if" at all on this point, that is exactly what they did.

The USMA released this statement:

WestPointAdmissions said:
The U.S. Military Academy’s chain of command reviewed former cadet King’s complete record of performance and conduct over his 47 months. Based on that review, he was separated.

From that statement, it's pretty clear that the airport incident was only the latest conduct/performace incident.

And West Point's actions against King COULD VERY WELL BE based solely on the air port incident.

Based on their statement, that is not the case.
 
1. What if: The part of the surveillance video that doesn't have the parties involved in sight, somehow is shown that King indeed threw the first punch?
2. What if: King indeed had more than just a couple drinks, and was indeed intoxicated?


Interesting post. Because someone comments on a video they are special and privy to something? I just watched the video for the zillion and first time and would just like to point out that King's head is always in the video. It never turns violently and his body doesn't appear to turn like someone would do when throwing a punch. When exiting and re-entering the video King is still talking on the phone which is in his right hand. I wonder if he is left handed? I guess that he could have thrown a straight punch, left handed without torqueung his body to get power behind it. He never takes the phone from his ear or prepares to defend himself. Strange actions for someone picking a fight. I would have run away. He just stands around. So, I respectfully disagree with those who think that King instigated the altercation. It is the reasonableness of what we are all seeing. If King started the fight, as reported to the PD, the trained security professionals in the entourage should have just held King and turned him over to the PD. A beatdown was totally unnecessary to stop the assault on their persons.

He may have been intoxicated, there is no evidence to show that he was, but it has no bearing on the cause of the fight. I wonder how many intoxicated people were at IAH that day that did not get the opportunity to get a ride in a ambulance? Lucky them.

It sounds like Cadet King did have a history at school and it is unfortunate that the two parties came together that day.
 
1. What if: The part of the surveillance video that doesn't have the parties involved in sight, somehow is shown that King indeed threw the first punch?
What if it doesn't?
What if WP says they did a thorough investigation but actually never viewed ANY of the airport video?
What if WPs thorough investigation actually consists of deciding to kick a cadet to the curb based on just a phone call from the HPD and whatever previous offenses he might have committed? Do you offer a cadet another "chance" and then dis-enroll him regardless of whether he was the culprit or the victim of a crime?

It seems likely that due to the civil lawsuit Mr King and his attorney have filed that we will eventually find out the the truth of what actually happened at the airport. If it turns out that Mr King was not guilty of anything other than what was visible in the video then WPs credibility in this matter and their decision making process in this matter should IMHO be questioned. Until then each of us can choose (based on our own military/life experiences) what we believe.
 
Luigi: I was giving "What If" examples. I got lucky on one, and not on the other. They weren't meant to be held to me as something "I SAID". They were only examples. The point is/was/and will always be: There are a lot of facts surrounding all decisions in this case, that we as posters are not privy to. Therefor, our opinions need to remain ALSO in the "What If" scenario. e.g. "If THIS happens, then I THINK that THIS should then happen...... However; if INSTEAD, THIS HAPPENS, then i think this should happen". Unfortunately, too many people's "OPINIONS" are based on speculation, that they believe is FACT.

JMC: You can watch the video 2 Zillion more times. That doesn't mean a thing to me. I gave you "EXAMPLES" of "WHAT IFs". You want to take that, and try and say that isn't possible, because of what you saw on the video. Fine. I don't really care. But you have proven my point. You don't care if there are "What Ifs". You simply refuse to believe that you "probably" don't know all the facts, and that your opinion of the academy may have been prejudice, and based on misinformation. Or rather, LACK of information.

You've at least now admitted that Cadet King MAY HAVE HAD a "History" at the academy. Therefor, this incident, may have simply been the "LAST STRAW". Mine and others' points, was simply that we gave the "Benefit of the Doubt" to the academy when they made their decision. WHY? Because we believed that they knew the WHOLE story, and we didn't. And that we trust them to not make a knee jerk decision with a cadet's future, without doing a proper investigation. You were basing your opinion off of what you SAW on a video, and not on anything else. Thus; not giving the academy the benefit of the doubt that they actually knew what they were doing. But rather: "If YOU weren't convinced, then no way should the Academy be convinced".

Anyway; that's my perception.
 
aglages: We MUST give West Point the benefit of the doubt until facts change. Why? Because that is the cornerstone of the foundation on which our military is built. I don't know if you have a direct military background or not. If you do, then you realize that if you don't trust the commissioned and non-commissioned officers and civilian leadership above you, then the mission fails. We are not, and can not all be 100% free-thinkers who simply question every decision and order given us. There is a time and place to question. Point is; if west point is proven to have made a mistake, then they will not only have to rectify their decision, but they will also have to earn back the trust and respect of their cadets. That happens every time someone makes a mistake in life. They do what they can to fix it, and then they spend a lot of time trying to regain the trust and respect of those they've affected. mike....
 
JMO but I think this thread is starting to take a turn of he/she said. I don’t mind a good debate and a good open discussion but I just get the feeling this is heading to the territories of the mods giving a warning.

With that said and out of the way this thread has definitely gotten me interested in this topic. What I want to see are the other video feeds in conjunction of the only angle we have. I know there’s others and if the lawyer has one he has the other… why isn’t he releasing those?

As for what happened to King and USMA it works to his favor in the civil suit. Because he was separated his lawyer can now claim that due to the incident he lost a potential “prosperous” and up the monetary value of the lawsuit… now I’m no lawyer and I know there’s some out there on this forum so I’m curious if what I think is true and it does work for him in the civil suit.
 
Geeezz - calm down CC. Are you taking this personally? I comment on things that I have learned from my experience in law enforcement. I don't comment on things outside my balliwick. I will accept your rebuke about my knowledge of WP, which is exactly zero. Congratulations you won!

But, I do know the way the police work and investigate crime and they will probably be asking themselves the same things that I had in my previous post. Why did the kid do that and why didn't he do that?

A person commits an offense if probable cause .........

Probable Cause - nice phrase. The detectives working that case weren't there so they will base their investigation on witness statements, if any and the all important video.

So, thanks for the encouragement CC. I'll go watch the video for one zillion and second time.
 
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If you have experience in law enforcement, then you should be the very first to realize that you most likely don't know everything about this case. All you know, is what you have seen in a video. And that is my point. I'll bet you that the video isn't the ONLY piece of evidence. Therefor, I stand by my point that the academy probably has access to more evidence than you do. Therefor, I trust the academy's decision more than any person's "Opinion" here. Until proven otherwise. It really is that simple. I'm not taking any of this personally. I don't know cadet king. I don't know patty labelle or her employees. But I do trust the academy over a 3 month old news report.
 
I sincerely doubt that here is more 'evidence" in this case other than a couple of witness statements and the video. But I appreciate your explaining to me what I do and do not know. But again, I may be pleasantly surprised one day if the HPD whips out the smoking gun showing what either side did that day. But based on my experiences, which is all I have, I don't expect it to happen. Most arrests are made with allot less than we have seen.

Maybe a jury of our peers will look at the video and be able to come to a mutual decision.

To the moderators:
Thanks for letting me participate on this thread. I'm outta here before I am kicked off. I have really enjoyed the last few days. I hope that I may have turned at least one person over to my side and have not turned too many folks off. There is nothing better than opposing opinions to make the world go round. I have learned allot since I first joined SAF. I am going back to the world of the lurkers so I can see what is happening at the two academies my kids are at.

I have been spit on, beat up, spent time in the OR and been shot at twice. It seems like a safer place than staying on this thread...

CC - maybe I'll see you at parent's weekend! Would you accept a t-shirt from my PD as a token of peace?

I am 10-7 (out of service)
 
It is interesting how West Point's initial (edit: or second) press release did not mention any information about a "pattern of misconduct." That should and could have been mentioned -- don't see where that crosses Privacy Act lines. It would have also gotten the correct version of events out.

Maybe a possible line:
"Cadet King was recommended for the AMP, not due to the specific incident at IAH that occurred on March XX, but in conjunction with patterns of misconduct during his time at WP, in which the Supe determined he did not meet the fitness required of an Army officer."

Not sure why a statement like that was not initially released and that causes some doubt -- what was there really to hide?

I concur with others that we should trust and defer to our leaders...but not all of them are perfect, including those who are in command.
 
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It seems that a lot of this discussion has focused on the video of the fight/assault and the suspension of Cadet King. The assumption seems to be that the fight is the reason or "final straw" that got King seperated. There is obviosly a lot we don't know about Cadet King but supposedly he did have prior issues. Perhaps the fight/assault only brought something else to WP's attention. Perhaps alcohol was off limits to him due to previous issues. Perhaps he wasn't supposed to be where he was? Perhaps . . . . ?
I doubt he was seperated because he got the crap beat out of him.
 
It is interesting how West Point's initial (edit: or second) press release did not mention any information about a "pattern of misconduct." That should and could have been mentioned -- don't see where that crosses Privacy Act lines. It would have also gotten the correct version of events out.

In my estimation that does violate privacy. If none of his conduct resulting in judicial punishment (read Court Martial) then not much can be said. Administrative actions are not releasable....WHY....because administrative actions don't carry the weight of legal actions. What if one person just doesn't like someone, takes administrative actions, and smears their name for future job hunts....

The West Point public affairs cannot talk about the reason for administrative actions...they can say that he was separated or left...

Trust me....it's better that way.
 
It is interesting how West Point's initial (edit: or second) press release did not mention any information about a "pattern of misconduct." That should and could have been mentioned -- don't see where that crosses Privacy Act lines. It would have also gotten the correct version of events out.

Maybe a possible line:
"Cadet King was recommended for the AMP, not due to the specific incident at IAH that occurred on March XX, but in conjunction with patterns of misconduct during his time at WP, in which the Supe determined he did not meet the fitness required of an Army officer."

Not sure why a statement like that was not initially released and that causes some doubt -- what was there really to hide?

I concur with others that we should trust and defer to our leaders...but not all of them are perfect, including those who are in command.

USMA is subject to FERPA rules, although there are military issues that are not covered by that. I think when they process under "Administrative" types of decisions, FERPA is in play (the student is being processed), thus the lack of comment on King's past records. When you go to the military justice system (the cadet being processed), I believe FERPA is not in play and military rules for disclosure apply.

People are trying to read way too much into comments that King's entire time at WP was reviewed. All disciplinary reviews are done to this standard.

The military part of this discussion has exhausted all possible reason. If people want to talk about HPD handling of the situation or the celebrity part of the story, have at it. However, that really isn't important in SAF discussion and it can be moved to Off Topic.
 
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