CO Leak
- Thread starter kpdad2013
- Start date
It all boils down to money. And finger pointing seems to continue to be the basis of this thread. Was a previous Supt not fired because he was temporarily moving money from one pot to another in order to make ends meet? Kinda makes sense to me that if more alumni gifts were made available for certain projects, such as the proposed field house, that the allocated federal funds would then be freed up to do more things such as maintenance. Another example, why are football coaches on the federal payroll? Hot air??
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Mongo and others I too suggest we move this to another thread if you'd like to continue this discussion. That said, my view is clearly that money is never the entire answer or the entire problem when it comes to something like this - the CO incident. Further it's not clear to me that even if USMMA had the same leeway with regards to NAFIs and donations for athletics which the other four federal service academies enjoy through legislative relief (and it does not have), that more money would have been made available for things that the Federal Government should clearly provide such as barracks, and faculty, etc. Its also not clear that those in charge would not have availed themselves of the ability they have and used to defer the placement of CO detectors in every student's dorm room since they are indeed able to exempt themselves from that NY State Law. I will agree that if money was easily available to the USMMA it would have been less likely to do so, after all USMA has them, but that's not a sure thing. That's why I think it's absolutely not all about money nor should it be when it comes to the root cause analysis and corrective actions that need to result from the after action analysis in this case. That said, I've said everything I intended to say on this topic on this forum until new information and details are released by the Administration as to what they are doing and changing in how they manage (or if you choose - micromanage) USMMA.
Obviously I do not think the needed actions and analysis to date at least as has been shared with those directly affected by it has been adequate.
Regarding donors- perhaps you should look at class size. Both USNA and USMA admit and enroll about 4 times as many students as USMMA. USNA admitted about 1200 in the class of 2015 and USMA about 1400. Not everyone makes it through to graduation but USMMA takes in on average 300 students per year and generally graduates about 200 so there is a much smaller of pool of individuals to support donations. That's not an excuse for 18% participation however USNA and USMA are dealing with a lot more bodies out the gate at graduation and a much longer history and existence which may account for long term endowments. They also graduate about 4-5 times as many students.....Maybe I missed it somewhere but are we comparing apples to apples? What % of the USNA and USMA alums make donations?
I also understand that:
1. USNA and USMA charge dues.
2. Graduates there sign up for automatic deductions before graduation, like a union shop.
3. The endowment funds come largely from defense contractors.
4. Many USMMA alumni members never attended Kings Point...and many only for a number of months..not earning a college degree. Many of these war time "graduates" were exceptional donors.
Still I agree that USMMA has a poor participation rate which has not moved up or down much in 35 years.
1. USNA and USMA charge dues.
2. Graduates there sign up for automatic deductions before graduation, like a union shop.
3. The endowment funds come largely from defense contractors.
4. Many USMMA alumni members never attended Kings Point...and many only for a number of months..not earning a college degree. Many of these war time "graduates" were exceptional donors.
Still I agree that USMMA has a poor participation rate which has not moved up or down much in 35 years.
USNA gives about 5 times as much per alumni as USMMA. 15%-20% seems to be the norm for most colleges. That is also about what our USNA class gets for special projects.
A drop in the bucket compared to overall contributions. I'm not even sure that dues are included in the annual giving numbers.
Not true. 90% of donations is from alumni, parents, and private friends of the academy. Corporate donations, much of it in the form of employee matching, which would be available to USMMA grads, amount to 5%-8% of total giving.
WWII alumni are mostly dead.
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Still, corporate donations make up a very small part of total contributions. Or are you saying that alumni, employed by government contractors, who make private contributions, should be listed under corporate gifts? Ten percent of USNA's total budget is funded through gifts. For USMMA, it is only 2%. Many quality of life improvements are outside the purview of federal funding. Also, an alumni association that does not "put it's money where it's mouth is" has no influence. And any alumni association should place itself in the position to be heard. It is a valuable check and balance.
I was going to ask for a moderator to intervene.
But an interesting point has been brought to light.
We need to know much more about these corporate donations and every connection to every type of defense contract.
Since money is the new topic I would like us to know whose pocket it is going into, whose pocket it is coming out of, and the path along the way.
We need to make sure their aren't any unethical or illegal business practices taking place.
We don't want to see it in this thread.
We don't want any opinions.
We want facts.
We want a disinterested investigative office to proceed with an inquiry.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
But an interesting point has been brought to light.
We need to know much more about these corporate donations and every connection to every type of defense contract.
Since money is the new topic I would like us to know whose pocket it is going into, whose pocket it is coming out of, and the path along the way.
We need to make sure their aren't any unethical or illegal business practices taking place.
We don't want to see it in this thread.
We don't want any opinions.
We want facts.
We want a disinterested investigative office to proceed with an inquiry.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Not sure what you are trying to imply here but irregardless, I am unable to help you.
Are you aware that over 1000 US Corporations have employee gift matching programs where they match any charitable employee gifts on up to a 3:1 ratio. Over 200 of these corporations assisted their employees in donating to USNA last year. Half of the corporate gifting was raised via this method. USMMA grad employees would have been afforded the same opportunity. It doesn't happen. Why??
jjohnson55
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back to the topic
While competing alumni contribution rates among SA's may be a fascinating topic for afternoon tea, I hope there is not an implication that current mids are being singled out for retaliation due to the failure of alumni to contribute. I think the main idea of the thread was to express concern over an inherently dangerous condition for which there could be no good excuse. Perhaps it is time to shut this thread down.
While competing alumni contribution rates among SA's may be a fascinating topic for afternoon tea, I hope there is not an implication that current mids are being singled out for retaliation due to the failure of alumni to contribute. I think the main idea of the thread was to express concern over an inherently dangerous condition for which there could be no good excuse. Perhaps it is time to shut this thread down.
A common theme throughout this thread is the crumbling condition of the facility. Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that money and the condition of a facility are directly correlated? Sure, refuirbishing the dorm rooms themselves requires federal funds but refurbishing quality of life projecrts such as the dorm common area and athletic facilities, such as the gym, mentioned in this thread, can be done with donations, freeing up federal funds for such projects as CO detectors. I can assure you that they were not installed due to an absence of funding.
Parents, in this very thread, are calling for action from the alumni. Is there any doubt that the alumni association's voice is directly proportional to the value it brings to the school? Is there any doubt that the current Chairman, in his latest alumni magazine column, is totally emasculated? A viable philantropic alumni association will be heard. Use Penn State for example. The President has been visiting each alumni group explaining the recent fiasco and answering questions. Why? Give money and, as a consequence, become heard.
Is there any doubt that USMMA alumni/parents had rather complain and point fingers elsewhere than accept any responsibility whatsoever for their institution? Sure USNA is five times as large but USNA parents alone donate twice as much annually as the entire USMMA donation budget and goal. Sure, keep your head in the sand. Point fingers. Don't accept ownership of your institution. Close the thread. And continue to be an embarrassment to the entire service academy family. You all have repeatedly, in this thread, asked why things are like they are. I have given you a reason. Not the only reason, maybe not even the major reason, but a very important one. Ignore it and continue whining and complaining.
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Some facts ... Fact 1) the current USMMA participation rate is 18% last time I checked 18 is between the 15 - 20% Mongo contends "...seems to be the norm for most colleges." He seems to be making a case for some sort of bragging rightss that USNA grads, especially his class far exceed the "norm" and feels that USMMA grads should as well.
While I share his view and wish my classmates and fellow USMMA Alumni would also donate at a rate above those of typical colleges since we don't have any sort of large endowment ala the Ivies, UVA or Stanford to make up for leaner times Fact 2) That USMMA doesn't have the same sort of Legislative relief that the other four Academies have that makes it easier and quicker for their Foundations to harvest the largesse that Mongo alludes to in his statement " That is also about what our USNA class gets for special projects." Special projects like the feildhouse endowment or the $500K for the strategic plan which was a gift in kind that was offered by a single USMMA alumnus, such as the donations that were recently rejected by MARAD as they were judged to not meet the basic critera that would allow MARAD to accept them without legislative relief such as the other academies, including USNA have. So if USMMA had such rules similar to USNA, USAFA, USCGA, and USMA while i don't believe our donations even on a % basis would approach the rates the other four federal academies enjoy, at least not immediately, we too would be significantly above that 15-20% norm and I believe the rate would also gradually continue to increase.
In any case the biggest Capital Facilities needs that we now talk about would and should still have to come from the Federal Budget. Until the USMMA gets an overall budget on a per student basis of similar size to the one of its four sister Academies that have a similar sized student body we will continue to struggle to keep pace. A lot of analysis was done in the past on this and right now in both "hard" and "soft" dollars USMMA significantly lags USCGA and that is indeed part of the problems that some allude to here-in.
However, none of those issues can or should definitely be cited as related to or the cause of the CO Leak incident that started this thread until a complete, root cause analysis is concluded by a non-partisan, non-affiliated expert panel in a transparent manner. I say that because Fact 3 is: 40+ Midshipman are fortunate to be alive today and no other future midshipmen should ever have to be placed in the same peril and unless the root causes are identified and fully remedied there can be no assurance this same thing or a similar incident cannot recur.
I say again if you are really interested in exploring the donor rate and what sorts of issues it creates or benefits the current USMMA Regiment of Midshipmen derive from the USMMAAF's gifts then we should start a new thread on the subject. Of course if you'd rather just spout facts about the USNA Alumni Foundation's relationship with USNA quality of life that may or may not be something of relevance to similar goals and objectives for the USMMA Regiment of Midshipman, then I guess this thread will continue on a course full speed ahead to a destination off topic.
While I share his view and wish my classmates and fellow USMMA Alumni would also donate at a rate above those of typical colleges since we don't have any sort of large endowment ala the Ivies, UVA or Stanford to make up for leaner times Fact 2) That USMMA doesn't have the same sort of Legislative relief that the other four Academies have that makes it easier and quicker for their Foundations to harvest the largesse that Mongo alludes to in his statement " That is also about what our USNA class gets for special projects." Special projects like the feildhouse endowment or the $500K for the strategic plan which was a gift in kind that was offered by a single USMMA alumnus, such as the donations that were recently rejected by MARAD as they were judged to not meet the basic critera that would allow MARAD to accept them without legislative relief such as the other academies, including USNA have. So if USMMA had such rules similar to USNA, USAFA, USCGA, and USMA while i don't believe our donations even on a % basis would approach the rates the other four federal academies enjoy, at least not immediately, we too would be significantly above that 15-20% norm and I believe the rate would also gradually continue to increase.
In any case the biggest Capital Facilities needs that we now talk about would and should still have to come from the Federal Budget. Until the USMMA gets an overall budget on a per student basis of similar size to the one of its four sister Academies that have a similar sized student body we will continue to struggle to keep pace. A lot of analysis was done in the past on this and right now in both "hard" and "soft" dollars USMMA significantly lags USCGA and that is indeed part of the problems that some allude to here-in.
However, none of those issues can or should definitely be cited as related to or the cause of the CO Leak incident that started this thread until a complete, root cause analysis is concluded by a non-partisan, non-affiliated expert panel in a transparent manner. I say that because Fact 3 is: 40+ Midshipman are fortunate to be alive today and no other future midshipmen should ever have to be placed in the same peril and unless the root causes are identified and fully remedied there can be no assurance this same thing or a similar incident cannot recur.
I say again if you are really interested in exploring the donor rate and what sorts of issues it creates or benefits the current USMMA Regiment of Midshipmen derive from the USMMAAF's gifts then we should start a new thread on the subject. Of course if you'd rather just spout facts about the USNA Alumni Foundation's relationship with USNA quality of life that may or may not be something of relevance to similar goals and objectives for the USMMA Regiment of Midshipman, then I guess this thread will continue on a course full speed ahead to a destination off topic.
NYBEAR
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Hot water is finally flowing in Barry/Jones' sinks and showers and CO detectors are installed. That is what counts in my book right now.
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usna1985
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People, let's keep this discussion civil.
This is the USMMA forum not the the USMMA vs. USNA philanthropy forum.
Please stick to the thread topics, don't insult institutions (constructive discussion and criticism is fine), and don't insult other posters.
This is the USMMA forum not the the USMMA vs. USNA philanthropy forum.
Please stick to the thread topics, don't insult institutions (constructive discussion and criticism is fine), and don't insult other posters.
I just need to throw this in here, not only does KP need money for essential items and the barracks, but when you go through the barracks and of 3 water fountains in 1 company 2 are broken (for at least the last 2 years and yes multiple work orders have been submitted) and multiple urinals/stall have been broken for months on top of multiple shower heads just falling off or not working at all, you get a dismal feeling something not good the school barely has enough money to give us hot water.
The school from the inside seems to be falling apart...a lot of talk and rumors going around even from the teachers themselves.
Why can't they keep up with just basic maintenance just to make life less strenuous, I mean is it that much to ask for small things such as having working door locks and water fountains? or is that a problem for the DoT if it is maybe it is time to look into closing the doors. In my mind the only reason the place remains sanitary and liveable is because of the Mids. We resort to fixing things they won't or bringing items that actually work.
/End Rant
The school from the inside seems to be falling apart...a lot of talk and rumors going around even from the teachers themselves.
Why can't they keep up with just basic maintenance just to make life less strenuous, I mean is it that much to ask for small things such as having working door locks and water fountains? or is that a problem for the DoT if it is maybe it is time to look into closing the doors. In my mind the only reason the place remains sanitary and liveable is because of the Mids. We resort to fixing things they won't or bringing items that actually work.
/End Rant
Mr. Rodgers KP80
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To clarify
I have followed this thread for some time now, and have been reluctant to chime in for a variety of good reasons.
However, I was at USMMA yesterday personally and discussed some of these issues with some of the midshipmen directly. Let me stick to some relevant input I received:
1.) There is some amount of "hot" water if that is what people want to call it, but that is not what the midshipmen are calling it.
2.) Male and Female midshipmen are still walking over to O'Hara Hall in their bathrobes in the winter (and at night) just to try to get a shower.
3.) The female midshipmen further reported that the stalls are often locked when they get there, and that the cleanliness in them is deplorable.
4.) There is still some form of portable unit on the grounds between Barry and O'Hara that is enclosed within red warning tape that is reminiscent of a crime scene.
5.) I was told the new hot water heater is still sitting on Zero Deck (basement for novices).
6.) Most of the affected midshipmen who have any heat in their rooms at all, have it from space heaters - which are technically kind of not allowed to be used in such facilities. Having said that openly I may just be adding to their grief in the short term.
7.) We can all thank "Global Warming" if we want to because this has been, so far, the mildest winter I can even remember in these parts.
8.) In such winters as this there is usually at least some extended period of deep freeze before it is all over. Will we be shocked if the water pipes freeze and burst then as well?
9.) The CO detectors have been installed, but they are a series of individual units that are not tied into any central monitoring. This is at best a "stop-gap" measure.
10.) I asked if these detectors also monitor combustible gas (oh - by-the-way, there have been numerous reports of the heavy smell of gas in various parts of the facility for many months prior to the CO incident, and numerous local evacuations have occurred. So..., to claim the CO issue was a big surprise may seem a bit disingenuous to the well-informed?) Back to point - the M/N do not know much about these detectors, so I am trying to see if anyone still has an original packing case (with ignored instructions included) so I can ascertain that information on my own.
11.) I am still trying to figure out how it could have been reported that no one was admitted to a hospital when some of the students had to be helicoptered to different locations and placed into hyperbaric chambers in order to clear the CO out of their systems. When did something like that become an "outpatient procedure?"
As I prepare to hit "send" I am thinking "Brace for Impact," but I guess I am going to submit this anyway since I spent all this time thinking about what personal observations may be of use to others.
As per many other comments in this thread, please put all the other issues into other threads where they belong.
I have followed this thread for some time now, and have been reluctant to chime in for a variety of good reasons.
However, I was at USMMA yesterday personally and discussed some of these issues with some of the midshipmen directly. Let me stick to some relevant input I received:
1.) There is some amount of "hot" water if that is what people want to call it, but that is not what the midshipmen are calling it.
2.) Male and Female midshipmen are still walking over to O'Hara Hall in their bathrobes in the winter (and at night) just to try to get a shower.
3.) The female midshipmen further reported that the stalls are often locked when they get there, and that the cleanliness in them is deplorable.
4.) There is still some form of portable unit on the grounds between Barry and O'Hara that is enclosed within red warning tape that is reminiscent of a crime scene.
5.) I was told the new hot water heater is still sitting on Zero Deck (basement for novices).
6.) Most of the affected midshipmen who have any heat in their rooms at all, have it from space heaters - which are technically kind of not allowed to be used in such facilities. Having said that openly I may just be adding to their grief in the short term.
7.) We can all thank "Global Warming" if we want to because this has been, so far, the mildest winter I can even remember in these parts.
8.) In such winters as this there is usually at least some extended period of deep freeze before it is all over. Will we be shocked if the water pipes freeze and burst then as well?
9.) The CO detectors have been installed, but they are a series of individual units that are not tied into any central monitoring. This is at best a "stop-gap" measure.
10.) I asked if these detectors also monitor combustible gas (oh - by-the-way, there have been numerous reports of the heavy smell of gas in various parts of the facility for many months prior to the CO incident, and numerous local evacuations have occurred. So..., to claim the CO issue was a big surprise may seem a bit disingenuous to the well-informed?) Back to point - the M/N do not know much about these detectors, so I am trying to see if anyone still has an original packing case (with ignored instructions included) so I can ascertain that information on my own.
11.) I am still trying to figure out how it could have been reported that no one was admitted to a hospital when some of the students had to be helicoptered to different locations and placed into hyperbaric chambers in order to clear the CO out of their systems. When did something like that become an "outpatient procedure?"
As I prepare to hit "send" I am thinking "Brace for Impact," but I guess I am going to submit this anyway since I spent all this time thinking about what personal observations may be of use to others.
As per many other comments in this thread, please put all the other issues into other threads where they belong.
NYBEAR
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Great Neck Record gets answers from USDOT spokesperson
http://www.antonnews.com/greatneckrecord/news/20828-kings-point-usmma-incident-update.html
Copy and paste above link.
http://www.antonnews.com/greatneckrecord/news/20828-kings-point-usmma-incident-update.html
Copy and paste above link.
Sorry. No intention of making it USMMA vs. USNA. Just pointing out that long term fixes might be necessary and more effective than short term bandaids and, through example, that these long term goals are indeed attainable.