Disenrolled from ROTC for undesired character, can I still commission? What are my options?

[MerchantmarinerDot]

Thanks all for stopping by team. Before I get into specifics (I wont go too in depth to protect my identity), I want to say I completely and royally messed up. It is my fault I was disenrolled, they were my actions, no-one else's. Simply posting this to see what my options are, and to get some advice. Context I think is important in this situation, not excuse my actions, but to aid in evaluation of my situation.

I'm currently a first semester sophomore at a state maritime academy, pursuing a Merchant Marine Deck Officer license. I am currently in the National Guard, and up until a couple weeks ago an ROTC basic course cadet, I checked all of the boxes physically, and in regard to military science/lab tactically or academically. So much so that my NG commander put me on rearDet of my deploying unit, because he believed that I was more than capable of contracting, and eventually leading soldiers. As an enlisted infantryman the basic military science course and many of the labs were very familiar to me and allowed me to help my pals who needed it. I guess where my faults were was in character or personal actions outside of ROTC.

I started college shortly after returning from Infantry OSUT. It was definitely a change of pace, and the freedom was great. Although there were some added distractions. I was struggling to keep up academically my first semester (I was still even in my second semester), I went through a bad breakup with my girlfriend at the time which made it even worse. Alcohol was something I resorted to frequently to relieve stress and escape from all the pressure I was feeling. Fast forward to last fall semester (last year) I was in ROTC, with people who knew me not as well as I would have liked. I had a few amount of friends in the program and was friendly with everyone outside of my own ROTC company, but within it I had a good number of upperclass who heard some rumors and weren't very fond of me. This resulted in every action being watched and picked apart by people who I considered equal in experience and to be my peers, that I respected. Still struggling academically and with interpersonal relationships, and my ex, I was always out drinking at the college bars. I normally was out with a group of friends and drank responsibly, maybe sometimes too much, but for the most part nothing delinquent like or illegal. One night I went out to a bar alone to drink and grab a bite, it was early maybe 6 or 7pm when I had started drinking. I was well behaved and had a conversation with a couple of the bar staff. Later on a small group of MS3s from the program went to sit down in the same bar away from me. One of them who knew me very well, before we even started ROTC, saw that I was drinking alone. We had a bit of a falling out a few months ago, but looking out for me she asked why I was drinking alone, another cadet came over and asked the same. Long story short I was upset that they were getting involved in personal business in the moment, and asked to be left alone. I continued to drink now im quite a few beers in and visibly drunk. One of the cadets told the bar tender to cut me off and I got extremely upset at her for once again trying to control my personal life. One of the guys saw I was upset and offered to take a walk with me outside, I blacked out at this point, got into an argument with the cadet that interrupted me, who I knew pretty well. I woke up the next morning with little recollection of the night. Monday I was moved to a different platoon in rotc and people were giving me some weird looks. My TAC-O for my company talked to me about the situation and basically said "you cant be getting belligerently drunk, I keep hearing that you're always out drinking from other cadets...". Basically, she told me to make sure all of my stuff was squared away a fair warning, for sure. I was upset at the fact that she heard about the incident at the time because in my mind, I believed that it was just as much my fault as the other cadet who interfered. Anyways rumors continued to spread, and people started to talk, I only had the one incident involving alcohol, so it didn't make sense to me that people were actively still slandering my name, and if it was that bad surely I would've been legitimately counseled or worse. It felt like people were out to get me. I tell you this part of the story because it shows that I was basically on the radar behavior wise (outside of school/rotc).

All this time (since the start of college) I ran and posted on a meme account military/college related memes. I kept the account as anonymous as possible. A lot of it was dark-humor and things that one wouldn't say in uniform because it wouldn't really represent them well, and if said to someone could fall under Equal Opportunity offenses. I had thousands of followers that were in some way affiliated with the military/cadets, although many of the memes were grey area many were innocent funny rotc/maritime related memes which people could relate to. As I said earlier I was struggling academically and mentally, so the meme page really became an outlet for all of my stress and anger I was feeling, hence the dark humor which sometimes consisted of racial/ethnic/sexual in nature, excessive use of alcohol, and very dark/suicidal themes for some of the content. There were times where I definitely crossed the line and took responsibility and publicly apologized. Many people though reached out to me and stated that they were actually relating to the content and was making them laugh (people all colors, genders, orientations, etc). What I failed to realize was that even though people were enjoying the content, and it was putting smiles not only on my face but others, that the content if said by me in real life and in uniform would not reflect highly upon myself, the service, and ROTC. I definitely undermined dignity and respect for myself and others. A lot of the content was Exaggerated and pushed to the extreme so that it would be funny and not really me just posting life experiences and thoughts. Fast forward to a couple weeks ago, an MS4 cadet who I was friends with since before I started college (we had a falling out last semester) decided to expose the account, keep in mind it was anonymous, he was a friend who i trusted, who I actually met through the very same meme page account on instagram. He sent the page around to some of the upperclassmen I believe, one of them was the cadet company commander. Someone then reported the page to cadre. The same TAC-O who spoke to me about the alcohol use in the fall, contacted me about the page. This was someone who I trusted and felt was a good leader, although once I felt she betrayed my trust. So when the captain asked if I knew about the instagram meme page, I said "yes maam". She then said okay some people within rotc have suggested that its your page, she said she isn't going to step on my first amendment rights, she explained that although she understands the dark humor some people even herself could possibly take offense, she also stated that some of it was even degrading to myself. She said she just wanted to reach out to me as a mentor and as my OIC, she said to be careful with the page especially if I continued with the account. She asked if I operated the account, I wasn't going to lie to her like earlier, even if I am a mess up, at least I can say I exercise integrity, one of the army values. Even though there was no real proof that the anonymous account was mine, I told her yes, taking ownership. I trusted her, and believed that she was genuinely trying to help, I had a lot of respect for her. The phone call ended with an "okay thank you maam" a "your welcome" (i think), and I immediately disabled the account after having been told by someone I respect that it could be offensive to her and others. The same day I was told to report to the main rotc office the next day. I did so, and had a meeting with the PMS and a few other cadre, it was a counseling (event oriented obviously). I stated that I knew why I was here and that I have no excuse or explanation for what I did except it was a way to relieve stress and other emotions I was feeling, and it was in no way meant to target or harass anyone in particular or undermine dignity/respect. Which was true it was just supposed to be a way to raise morale, and it was put to some good use. The account in no way represented my true thoughts, feelings, or character (I didnt say this as I thought it was obvious). My PMS found me to be in violation of AR145-1 (Misconduct) that demonstrated undesirable character. I was disenrolled from ROTC.

So that is the very long story of what led/contributed to my disenrollment. Ive still got about 3 more years of school here (summer cruises and an extra semester), I want to commission still. Im not sure that this is the place for that obviously because I cannot do ROTC at the program I was at because my PMS will not let me. My only chance is maybe waiting until he leaves (two years probably?). My APMS after the counseling told me that this isnt the end and that he would assist me in whatever ways possible if commissioning is still my goal. He stated ROTC is still a possibility.

*Side note: I am trying to get my peas in a pod, and make sure that I am as mentally prepared as needed to handle the task of leading soldiers. I understand that I need to be ready to lead. ROTC was honestly one of my only morale boosters, maybe my biggest, it also happened to be one of the biggest hurdles when it came to relationships.

I reached out to one program at Georgia Military College, I was interested in the change of scenery from the city, and the early commissioning program. I need the structure that I have here at maritime/regimented corps life style to limit distractions, but I want the LT bars as soon as possible, a bachelors degree to me is just something that is in the way of that, ECP allows me to commission in 2 instead of 2 or 3 more years. I digress, I emailed their recruitment officer and he stated that I couldnt be enrolled because there are regulations regarding timelines and reenrollment in ROTC. I reviewed AR145-1 and it seemed like I could get a waiver, from what I read. My APMS also stated I could go to another program and still commission as long as I was honest, and they gave me a chance. Is there no way I can do ROTC ? Is there something I am missing in the regulations? I'm hoping my former APMS was right, I contacted him and asked the same and he said he would do some research in get back to me on what the process would look like, hasn't yet, but its only been a day or two. ECP is not the only thing im considering but it would be preferred.

 

[Capt MJ]

Did you receive the form below or something similar? The recommendation there will be critical to any other program accepting you. No need to answer that here.

I recommend reflecting on the many choices you made that led you to this point, including using alcohol to excess as a solution to stress. That is your choice, of course, but any subsequent misconduct or additional unwise choices, in the eyes of the UCMJ, is not excused. And the fellow cadet who told the bartender to cut you off? I doubt she woke up that morning thinking “how can I control someone’s personal life today?” She saw a fellow cadet not in a good place, and had the courage to try and look out for them. I’d like to think I would have done the same, recognizing I might take some flak for it. There is a saying: “If alcohol is causing you problems, then you have a problem with alcohol.”

And the social media stuff. Everything you say or do, every choice you make, reflects your values and who you are. It wasn’t some alternate personality posting stuff; it was you. Saying it is “dark humor” is not a permission slip, but I recognize your right to free speech - but the uniform sets boundaries there. Every human says or does things that are regrettable during their lives. You may want to reflect on why it felt good to you to have thousands of followers wanting to read or see things that were borderline or over the edge.

In general, both of the types of behaviors you describe are grounds for separation of officers, whether junior or senior. There is a reason the UCMJ has 2 things civilian law does not, to address actions which may not be criminal or illegal but are “conduct unbecoming” or “bring discredit to the service.” Your cadre apparently thought there was enough weight to your conduct in this area they took steps with the good of the Army in mind.

I applaud you for wanting to serve and for actively researching your options. You may well have strong leadership qualities and other potential skills and abilities for a commission as an officer. You are now dragging around some sizable dirty laundry, though.

You said right upfront you wanted to take responsibility for your actions. This is good. Do some deeper thinking about your choices. How might things have been different if you had chosen differently? This is rhetorical. You have shared quite a bit here.

I hope this negative consequence serves as your turnaround point. You can control how you feel about things, how you make important choices, how you coach yourself when feeling negative, what standards you set for yourself, what values you hold, in and out of uniform, anonymous or not.

Good people can do bad things. Try to do fewer of them, and I hope you find your path.

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/forms/dd/dd0785.pdf

Paging my forum shipmates @GWU PNS @MohawkArmyROTC
@Montana State Army ROTC whose ROTC expertise and insight I defer to.

 

[justdoit19]

Respectfully, personally, I would recommend some professional help (counseling) in learning/understanding why you push boundaries, as part of your make up, until caught. Not saying this to throw shade, at all, but as a parent. Who recognizes this behavior in your post. And to learn healthy/acceptable ways to deal with stressors/interpersonal relationships. This absolutely can be a turnaround point for you!! Learn from all of this. We learn most from our failures and difficult challenges.

Best wishes for you!!

 

[MerchantmarinerDot]

Did you receive the form below or something similar? The recommendation there will be critical to any other program accepting you. No need to answer that here.

I recommend reflecting on the many choices you made that led you to this point, including using alcohol to excess as a solution to stress. That is your choice, of course, but any subsequent misconduct or additional unwise choices, in the eyes of the UCMJ, is not excused. And the fellow cadet who told the bartender to cut you off? I doubt she woke up that morning thinking “how can I control someone’s personal life today?” She saw a fellow cadet not in a good place, and had the courage to try and look out for them. I’d like to think I would have done the same, recognizing I might take some flak for it. There is a saying: “If alcohol is causing you problems, then you have a problem with alcohol.”

And the social media stuff. Everything you say or do, every choice you make, reflects your values and who you are. It wasn’t some alternate personality posting stuff; it was you. Saying it is “dark humor” is not a permission slip, but I recognize your right to free speech - but the uniform sets boundaries there. Every human says or does things that are regrettable during their lives. You may want to reflect on why it felt good to you to have thousands of followers wanting to read or see things that were borderline or over the edge.

In general, both of the types of behaviors you describe are grounds for separation of officers, whether junior or senior. There is a reason the UCMJ has 2 things civilian law does not, to address actions which may not be criminal or illegal but are “conduct unbecoming” or “bring discredit to the service.” Your cadre apparently thought there was enough weight to your conduct in this area they took steps with the good of the Army in mind.

I applaud you for wanting to serve and for actively researching your options. You may well have strong leadership qualities and other potential skills and abilities for a commission as an officer. You are now dragging around some sizable dirty laundry, though.

You said right upfront you wanted to take responsibility for your actions. This is good. Do some deeper thinking about your choices. How might things have been different if you had chosen differently? This is rhetorical. You have shared quite a bit here.

I hope this negative consequence serves as your turnaround point. You can control how you feel about things, how you make important choices, how you coach yourself when feeling negative, what standards you set for yourself, what values you hold, in and out of uniform, anonymous or not.

Good people can do bad things. Try to do fewer of them, and I hope you find your path.

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/forms/dd/dd0785.pdf

Paging my forum shipmates @GWU PNS @MohawkArmyROTC
@Montana State Army ROTC whose ROTC expertise and insight I defer to.

So I probably should’ve mentioned this too, I did NOT receive a DA785 form, which is why I’m extremely confused about my options. REGs seem to say yes with a waiver, regs say I should’ve gotten a form that I didn’t get, and my former cadre say it’s possible. One program said no.

Thus the reason for the post. I wouldn’t be posting it here if I could find the answer 100% anywhere else. I digress. Thank you for the insight, of course looking back I can see how the fellow cadet (a former good friend) was just trying to help a cadet in need. And I kind of always knew that my actions brought discredit upon myself/service. I’ve been sitting in my own failure for a couple weeks now. I believe lesson learned. I definitely do need to pickup better strategies for management of stress/emotions in general. I’ve thought about why the social media stuff made me feel good but didn’t really allow myself to think the worst about myself. Maybe I should do a bit more reflecting.

Thanks again

 

[MerchantmarinerDot]

Respectfully, personally, I would recommend some professional help (counseling) in learning/understanding why you push boundaries, as part of your make up, until caught. Not saying this to throw shade, at all, but as a parent. Who recognizes this behavior in your post. And to learn healthy/acceptable ways to deal with stressors/interpersonal relationships. This absolutely can be a turnaround point for you!! Learn from all of this. We learn most from our failures and difficult challenges.

Best wishes for you!!

Thanks for the response. Professional help was something I was already seeking (for a year). Although I can’t say it was much help because I was and still am in the same environment. I genuinely think a change of scenery and a fresh start will do me some good. A mentor of mine, a green to gold guy I know, told me “dude sometimes you just got to sit in your own failure and kind of soak it in to figure out your next move”. I think he’s right, I’ve got some serious soul searching to do. Honestly I just thought being prior service enlisted, that I could just go through the motions of college life, and keep my private life separate from ROTC. Obviously I was wrong. I greatly underestimated how much higher the standards are for officers/cadets. I kept looking back on it, and asking myself what I would’ve done if it was one of my soldiers accused of this kind of conduct, maybe a little bit of one on one, but definitely not NJP/administrative action. Again the difference between Officer and enlisted standards I guess. I will focus more on holding standards and drawing a line in and out of uniform. I think the biggest lesson learned is in the military there is no personal life. Once again thank you for your reply and best wishes.

 

[GWU PNS (emeritus)]

I see by the name you are at the Merchant Marine Academy? But you use the term cadet and mentioned National Guard so I believe you went through AROTC? I ask because the procedures are different and I don't want to give you bad advice.

Generally, I try not to make character assessments based on a single forum post. I do notice a trend where cadets with whom you were once friends now don't seem to be friends anymore. Do you have friends in your National Guard unit? I think you just need some time to clear your head space before trying to jump into another commissioning source. The question for me isn't so much could you do it.....but should you do it?

 

[Herman_Snerd]

Thanks for the response. Professional help was something I was already seeking (for a year). Although I can’t say it was much help because I was and still am in the same environment. I genuinely think a change of scenery and a fresh start will do me some good. A mentor of mine, a green to gold guy I know, told me “dude sometimes you just got to sit in your own failure and kind of soak it in to figure out your next move”. I think he’s right, I’ve got some serious soul searching to do. Honestly I just thought being prior service enlisted, that I could just go through the motions of college life, and keep my private life separate from ROTC. Obviously I was wrong. I greatly underestimated how much higher the standards are for officers/cadets. I kept looking back on it, and asking myself what I would’ve done if it was one of my soldiers accused of this kind of conduct, maybe a little bit of one on one, but definitely not NJP/administrative action. Again the difference between Officer and enlisted standards I guess. I will focus more on holding standards and drawing a line in and out of uniform. I think the biggest lesson learned is in the military there is no personal life. Once again thank you for your reply and best wishes.

@MerchantmarinerDot​

I’ll ask that you assume positive intent from me here, well because it's there.

Your creative expression meme outlet was just turned off, and you’re going through a big adjustment. You also have some unresolved angst with prior, recent, current relationships. I do recommend you continue seeing a professional for talking through issues. And if when paired with your first therapist y’all weren’t making significant progress, as you said about a fresh start, try a change/ someone new. But why not take a boost / just have someone to talk all this out with? You have a lot to sort out /it sincerely might help.

Regarding humor that wades over the line on ethnicity/ gender – it’s just taboo. A ROTC participant “jokingly” raised his arm in a Hitler costume at a Halloween party, and a pic of that was posted – he was 86’d out of ROTC before the weekend was over. At work someone made their Caucasian eyes slanted with their fingers while we were on a call with our Seoul office – out the door never to return within 24 hours- to a group of us who include Asian wives, sister in laws, etc. I could list 10 other examples – just learn from this as a “never, ever again” to be the author of carrying forward stereotypes. Not questioning your intent - I even issued a cease and desist when my DS, then a team sport captain in HS played music with the N word in it on a team bus – he protested that his teammates all loved It and that it was requested by an African American teammate specifically– I offered no exception / tolerance to the never, ever rule. You have to read the room and know that times have changed – you mau have seen banter in the barracks on guard weekends, but in the real world, it' just doesn't fly. Those expressions are outdated, make you look ignorant, even if intended as humor. It ruins careers. Drop it like a hot potato.

In or out of uniform, you “represent” yourself and the military. At a bar, with your online comments. In informal interactions with peers – the standard is higher, officer or enlisted – hold yourself to it. I think you’ve learned from this, and will, which is great.

I’ll share honestly that I see someone worth salvaging in you – you’re honest, reflective, are asking a lot of great questions, and I see even those in your ROTC unit are willing to help you on your journey – so go for it – take the guidance, and keep reaching out to units. I think you should seek mentorship from your guard unit and counseling as well. This is a setback that you can overcome. You should explore OCS options to commission as an officer, continue your education, and yes explore ROTC options openly – just know as noted above you are doing so with some complications. You should find out what was documented in your exit paperwork, even if that wasn’t given to you – you should get a copy of that, and ask for support if the verbiage is not balanced/ fair.

Thank you for your service and don’t give up on yourself – a lot of us have failed at some aspects of our lives - and learned from it. I dare to say most of us, at something or another – but how you recover will mean a lot more than the events themselves in this case on defining you. Keep going forward and good luck to you.

 

[MerchantmarinerDot]

I see by the name you are at the Merchant Marine Academy? But you use the term cadet and mentioned National Guard so I believe you went through AROTC? I ask because the procedures are different and I don't want to give you bad advice.

Generally, I try not to make character assessments based on a single forum post. I do notice a trend where cadets with whom you were once friends now don't seem to be friends anymore. Do you have friends in your National Guard unit? I think you just need some time to clear your head space before trying to jump into another commissioning source. The question for me isn't so much could you do it.....but should you do it?

Thank you for stopping by, I appreciate the response. I'm at a state maritime academy, I was also in Army ROTC. As far as friends in my national guard unit, no, I don't consider them to be my friends, battle-buddies and peers that I would do anything for? Absolutely. The national guard for me is not enjoyable, I show up to drill, go above what is asked of me, I tend to keep quite mostly, and learn. My motivation was and still is commissioning. I didn't join the guard to make friends (they aren't really my kind of crowd), but again I've kept a good relationship with all of them, I joined to gain a bit of perspective on the enlisted way of life/experience, and to supplement what I learn in ROTC/college, to make me a better officer.

Sir with all respect, I know what I want, and that is to be leading my own soldiers. Commissioning has been my only long-term goal for a while now. I do agree with you that I need to take some time to clear my head (4 months + summer) should be enough time to do exactly that. I have no other interests besides leading soldiers and conning ships. I think the question is would be doing a disservice to enlisted service members, by commissioning? Or maybe Am I the kind of leader, I want to be led by? When I answer this truthfully, as of right now no. But I do believe that I have the potential to be, I messed up, it's almost inevitable. But ROTC is for developing leaders, if Im not mistaken, I have time and the ability to do and become a better person, and in the end a leader.

 

[MerchantmarinerDot]

@MerchantmarinerDot​

I’ll ask that you assume positive intent from me here, well because it's there.

Your creative expression meme outlet was just turned off, and you’re going through a big adjustment. You also have some unresolved angst with prior, recent, current relationships. I do recommend you continue seeing a professional for talking through issues. And if when paired with your first therapist y’all weren’t making significant progress, as you said about a fresh start, try a change/ someone new. But why not take a boost / just have someone to talk all this out with? You have a lot to sort out /it sincerely might help.

Regarding humor that wades over the line on ethnicity/ gender – it’s just taboo. A ROTC participant “jokingly” raised his arm in a Hitler costume at a Halloween party, and a pic of that was posted – he was 86’d out of ROTC before the weekend was over. At work someone made their Caucasian eyes slanted with their fingers while we were on a call with our Seoul office – out the door never to return within 24 hours- to a group of us who include Asian wives, sister in laws, etc. I could list 10 other examples – just learn from this as a “never, ever again” to be the author of carrying forward stereotypes. Not questioning your intent - I even issued a cease and desist when my DS, then a team sport captain in HS played music with the N word in it on a team bus – he protested that his teammates all loved It and that it was requested by an African American teammate specifically– I offered no exception / tolerance to the never, ever rule. You have to read the room and know that times have changed – you mau have seen banter in the barracks on guard weekends, but in the real world, it' just doesn't fly. Those expressions are outdated, make you look ignorant, even if intended as humor. It ruins careers. Drop it like a hot potato.

In or out of uniform, you “represent” yourself and the military. At a bar, with your online comments. In informal interactions with peers – the standard is higher, officer or enlisted – hold yourself to it. I think you’ve learned from this, and will, which is great.

I’ll share honestly that I see someone worth salvaging in you – you’re honest, reflective, are asking a lot of great questions, and I see even those in your ROTC unit are willing to help you on your journey – so go for it – take the guidance, and keep reaching out to units. I think you should seek mentorship from your guard unit and counseling as well. This is a setback that you can overcome. You should explore OCS options to commission as an officer, continue your education, and yes explore ROTC options openly – just know as noted above you are doing so with some complications. You should find out what was documented in your exit paperwork, even if that wasn’t given to you – you should get a copy of that, and ask for support if the verbiage is not balanced/ fair.

Thank you for your service and don’t give up on yourself – a lot of us have failed at some aspects of our lives - and learned from it. I dare to say most of us, at something or another – but how you recover will mean a lot more than the events themselves in this case on defining you. Keep going forward and good luck to you.

Very well said, thank you for your response and advice. I'll definitely consider reaching out to my Guard COC, for some guidance, I just don't really know them all that well, and going to someone I don't really trust... I dont see it working out well. I've got drill coming up soon enough and Im sure the conversation will come up.

Thank you again for the response. I'll reach out to ROTC and see if I can get the discharge documents.

 

[StPaulDad]

I just don't really know them all that well, and going to someone I don't really trust... I don't see it working out well.

This is something to work on as well. Talking to people you don't know well has to work because the world is full of people you don't know at all. Every day you're going to be talking to others and you have to be able to express yourself appropriately as well as listen and trust that the world isn't out to screw you. It'll be harder in a counseling situation like this where the need for trust is higher and you've managed to dig yourself a bit of a hole, but a sincere willingness to stop, change course and not try to plunge directly ahead is a good starting point. After talking you may find that stepping away from ROTC for a few years while you make some grades, tend to your personal life and get a degree could make OCS your best path forward. Be open to what others are saying, weigh it for value rather than motive, and maybe accept that actions to date might make a rapid commission a poor choice for you right now.

 

[randomplebe]

I see by the name you are at the Merchant Marine Academy? But you use the term cadet and mentioned National Guard so I believe you went through AROTC? I ask because the procedures are different and I don't want to give you bad advice.

Generally, I try not to make character assessments based on a single forum post. I do notice a trend where cadets with whom you were once friends now don't seem to be friends anymore. Do you have friends in your National Guard unit? I think you just need some time to clear your head space before trying to jump into another commissioning source. The question for me isn't so much could you do it.....but should you do it?

SUNY Maritime, across the sound from KP.

 

[Humey]

I know this has nothing to do with your question On a practical matter, never tell anyone what you are doing when you are trying to stay anonymous. You have no idea who they are going to tell or when they are going to get pissed off and denounce you. I also personally wouldn't have said it was your memes. I would have said nothing. I know this isn't the military way. (or maybe it is) You should have kept your mouth shut. Really, you shouldn't have done it in the first place. Also drinking alone is never a good sign. Your friends are the bar didn't instigate anything. They were concerned for you and rightly so. You were so gone that you took offense and retaliated.

 

[MerchantmarinerDot]

I know this has nothing to do with your question On a practical matter, never tell anyone what you are doing when you are trying to stay anonymous. You have no idea who they are going to tell or when they are going to get pissed off and denounce you. I also personally wouldn't have said it was your memes. I would have said nothing. I know this isn't the military way. (or maybe it is) You should have kept your mouth shut. Really, you shouldn't have done it in the first place. Also drinking alone is never a good sign. Your friends are the bar didn't instigate anything. They were concerned for you and rightly so. You were so gone that you took offense and retaliated.

Perhaps the fact that I was honest I would’ve been fine, I’d still be a cadet in army rotc. If I just lied I could’ve gotten away with it all. Perhaps your right, I have heard of many officers and NCOs that do lie to protect themselves or sometimes others. I know that I can’t lie my way through a career that should be revolve around integrity. I’m happy that I told the truth and I feel good about it. But if I didn’t … I wouldn’t be in the hole I’m in now.

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

I see a certain pattern among many parents or students who post here after a bad review, a down grade, something not going well according to plan. The problems are often caused by others.

That said I’d suggest going back and rereading every word you posted and count how many times your problems were caused by others according to you

Others that did not know you well, others that did know you well, others that had tried to help, others that had heard rumors about you, others that saw you drinking alone ( for what you originally claimed was a bite to eat) , others that etc etc etc.


Many an addict or problem substance abuser has blamed their substance issues on the attempt at reducing stress as you have.

The thread started out so promising with you taking responsibility. Not that you are in trouble for not lying which is where we end up.

 

[MerchantmarinerDot]

I see a certain pattern among many parents or students who post here after a bad review, a down grade, something not going well according to plan. The problems are often caused by others.

That said I’d suggest going back and rereading every word you posted and count how many times your problems were caused by others according to you

Others that did not know you well, others that did know you well, others that had tried to help, others that had heard rumors about you, others that saw you drinking alone ( for what you originally claimed was a bite to eat) , others that etc etc etc.


Many an addict or problem substance abuser has blamed their substance issues on the attempt at reducing stress as you have.

The thread started out so promising with you taking responsibility. Not that you are in trouble for not lying which is where we end up.

I think you’re kind of misinterpreting what I’m trying to say. One) throughout the post I was giving you my feelings at the time, that other people were causing problems etc..

Two)I took responsibility and I’m still owning it

Three) I never once said I was in trouble for not lying. The sad truth of it all is I probably wouldn’t be in trouble if I just told one lie. I didn’t and I’m happy I didn’t.

 

[MerchantmarinerDot]

This is something to work on as well. Talking to people you don't know well has to work because the world is full of people you don't know at all. Every day you're going to be talking to others and you have to be able to express yourself appropriately as well as listen and trust that the world isn't out to screw you. It'll be harder in a counseling situation like this where the need for trust is higher and you've managed to dig yourself a bit of a hole, but a sincere willingness to stop, change course and not try to plunge directly ahead is a good starting point. After talking you may find that stepping away from ROTC for a few years while you make some grades, tend to your personal life and get a degree could make OCS your best path forward. Be open to what others are saying, weigh it for value rather than motive, and maybe accept that actions to date might make a rapid commission a poor choice for you right now.

I sat on your comment a bit, and took it for what it’s worth. I do appreciate it. OCS isn’t something I’m interested in right now, I still believe that ROTC could be a good option for me. As I said commissioning has been a huge motivation for me throughout school. I don’t want to waste 4 years at school just to find out OCS won’t take me. That’s why I don’t want to wait out. As for the communicating with people you don’t know well 100% thank you again for your response.

 

[Humey]

Perhaps the fact that I was honest I would’ve been fine, I’d still be a cadet in army rotc. If I just lied I could’ve gotten away with it all. Perhaps your right, I have heard of many officers and NCOs that do lie to protect themselves or sometimes others. I know that I can’t lie my way through a career that should be revolve around integrity. I’m happy that I told the truth and I feel good about it. But if I didn’t … I wouldn’t be in the hole I’m in now.

I didn't say a lie. I said keep your mouth closed. I realize this isn't the same but you know what a lawyer will tell you when the cops grab you, whether guilty or not? keep your mouth shut. Do not lie but you don't have to give them the evidence they can use against you.

 

[Herman_Snerd]

I sat on your comment a bit, and took it for what it’s worth. I do appreciate it. OCS isn’t something I’m interested in right now, I still believe that ROTC could be a good option for me. As I said commissioning has been a huge motivation for me throughout school. I don’t want to waste 4 years at school just to find out OCS won’t take me. That’s why I don’t want to wait out. As for the communicating with people you don’t know well 100% thank you again for your response

Seeing within your posts that you are open to continuing talking to a counseling professional and your chain of command for counseling/ guidance - good for you / go for it . Quick follow-up recommendation is that you should talk with your guard commanding officer about options for OCS - you don't have to wait to move forward on exploring that path as well as ROTC options. Advocate for yourself, while taking some time in the months ahead for some introspective reflection. You got this - please keep the board posted as you move forward with your service on details that may be helpful to others. Best of luck to you.

 

[Small Team Bacsi]

I didn't say a lie. I said keep your mouth closed. I realize this isn't the same but you know what a lawyer will tell you when the cops grab you, whether guilty or not? keep your mouth shut. Do not lie but you don't have to give them the evidence they can use against you.

A bit off topic or not

There is a well done law school lecture, filmed and on line, done by a veteran police officer and a defense attorney. Their advice

”Why you should never say anything to the police.”

And they go on to explain that anything means exactly that. It’s an interesting 40-50 minutes or so of watching.

 

[Day-Tripper]

Thanks all for stopping by team. Before I get into specifics (I wont go too in depth to protect my identity), I want to say I completely and royally messed up. It is my fault I was disenrolled, they were my actions, no-one else's. Simply posting this to see what my options are, and to get some advice. Context I think is important in this situation, not excuse my actions, but to aid in evaluation of my situation.

I'm currently a first semester sophomore at a state maritime academy, pursuing a Merchant Marine Deck Officer license. I am currently in the National Guard, and up until a couple weeks ago an ROTC basic course cadet, I checked all of the boxes physically, and in regard to military science/lab tactically or academically. So much so that my NG commander put me on rearDet of my deploying unit, because he believed that I was more than capable of contracting, and eventually leading soldiers. As an enlisted infantryman the basic military science course and many of the labs were very familiar to me and allowed me to help my pals who needed it. I guess where my faults were was in character or personal actions outside of ROTC.

I started college shortly after returning from Infantry OSUT. It was definitely a change of pace, and the freedom was great. Although there were some added distractions. I was struggling to keep up academically my first semester (I was still even in my second semester), I went through a bad breakup with my girlfriend at the time which made it even worse. Alcohol was something I resorted to frequently to relieve stress and escape from all the pressure I was feeling. Fast forward to last fall semester (last year) I was in ROTC, with people who knew me not as well as I would have liked. I had a few amount of friends in the program and was friendly with everyone outside of my own ROTC company, but within it I had a good number of upperclass who heard some rumors and weren't very fond of me. This resulted in every action being watched and picked apart by people who I considered equal in experience and to be my peers, that I respected. Still struggling academically and with interpersonal relationships, and my ex, I was always out drinking at the college bars. I normally was out with a group of friends and drank responsibly, maybe sometimes too much, but for the most part nothing delinquent like or illegal. One night I went out to a bar alone to drink and grab a bite, it was early maybe 6 or 7pm when I had started drinking. I was well behaved and had a conversation with a couple of the bar staff. Later on a small group of MS3s from the program went to sit down in the same bar away from me. One of them who knew me very well, before we even started ROTC, saw that I was drinking alone. We had a bit of a falling out a few months ago, but looking out for me she asked why I was drinking alone, another cadet came over and asked the same. Long story short I was upset that they were getting involved in personal business in the moment, and asked to be left alone. I continued to drink now im quite a few beers in and visibly drunk. One of the cadets told the bar tender to cut me off and I got extremely upset at her for once again trying to control my personal life. One of the guys saw I was upset and offered to take a walk with me outside, I blacked out at this point, got into an argument with the cadet that interrupted me, who I knew pretty well. I woke up the next morning with little recollection of the night. Monday I was moved to a different platoon in rotc and people were giving me some weird looks. My TAC-O for my company talked to me about the situation and basically said "you cant be getting belligerently drunk, I keep hearing that you're always out drinking from other cadets...". Basically, she told me to make sure all of my stuff was squared away a fair warning, for sure. I was upset at the fact that she heard about the incident at the time because in my mind, I believed that it was just as much my fault as the other cadet who interfered. Anyways rumors continued to spread, and people started to talk, I only had the one incident involving alcohol, so it didn't make sense to me that people were actively still slandering my name, and if it was that bad surely I would've been legitimately counseled or worse. It felt like people were out to get me. I tell you this part of the story because it shows that I was basically on the radar behavior wise (outside of school/rotc).

All this time (since the start of college) I ran and posted on a meme account military/college related memes. I kept the account as anonymous as possible. A lot of it was dark-humor and things that one wouldn't say in uniform because it wouldn't really represent them well, and if said to someone could fall under Equal Opportunity offenses. I had thousands of followers that were in some way affiliated with the military/cadets, although many of the memes were grey area many were innocent funny rotc/maritime related memes which people could relate to. As I said earlier I was struggling academically and mentally, so the meme page really became an outlet for all of my stress and anger I was feeling, hence the dark humor which sometimes consisted of racial/ethnic/sexual in nature, excessive use of alcohol, and very dark/suicidal themes for some of the content. There were times where I definitely crossed the line and took responsibility and publicly apologized. Many people though reached out to me and stated that they were actually relating to the content and was making them laugh (people all colors, genders, orientations, etc). What I failed to realize was that even though people were enjoying the content, and it was putting smiles not only on my face but others, that the content if said by me in real life and in uniform would not reflect highly upon myself, the service, and ROTC. I definitely undermined dignity and respect for myself and others. A lot of the content was Exaggerated and pushed to the extreme so that it would be funny and not really me just posting life experiences and thoughts. Fast forward to a couple weeks ago, an MS4 cadet who I was friends with since before I started college (we had a falling out last semester) decided to expose the account, keep in mind it was anonymous, he was a friend who i trusted, who I actually met through the very same meme page account on instagram. He sent the page around to some of the upperclassmen I believe, one of them was the cadet company commander. Someone then reported the page to cadre. The same TAC-O who spoke to me about the alcohol use in the fall, contacted me about the page. This was someone who I trusted and felt was a good leader, although once I felt she betrayed my trust. So when the captain asked if I knew about the instagram meme page, I said "yes maam". She then said okay some people within rotc have suggested that its your page, she said she isn't going to step on my first amendment rights, she explained that although she understands the dark humor some people even herself could possibly take offense, she also stated that some of it was even degrading to myself. She said she just wanted to reach out to me as a mentor and as my OIC, she said to be careful with the page especially if I continued with the account. She asked if I operated the account, I wasn't going to lie to her like earlier, even if I am a mess up, at least I can say I exercise integrity, one of the army values. Even though there was no real proof that the anonymous account was mine, I told her yes, taking ownership. I trusted her, and believed that she was genuinely trying to help, I had a lot of respect for her. The phone call ended with an "okay thank you maam" a "your welcome" (i think), and I immediately disabled the account after having been told by someone I respect that it could be offensive to her and others. The same day I was told to report to the main rotc office the next day. I did so, and had a meeting with the PMS and a few other cadre, it was a counseling (event oriented obviously). I stated that I knew why I was here and that I have no excuse or explanation for what I did except it was a way to relieve stress and other emotions I was feeling, and it was in no way meant to target or harass anyone in particular or undermine dignity/respect. Which was true it was just supposed to be a way to raise morale, and it was put to some good use. The account in no way represented my true thoughts, feelings, or character (I didnt say this as I thought it was obvious). My PMS found me to be in violation of AR145-1 (Misconduct) that demonstrated undesirable character. I was disenrolled from ROTC.

So that is the very long story of what led/contributed to my disenrollment. Ive still got about 3 more years of school here (summer cruises and an extra semester), I want to commission still. Im not sure that this is the place for that obviously because I cannot do ROTC at the program I was at because my PMS will not let me. My only chance is maybe waiting until he leaves (two years probably?). My APMS after the counseling told me that this isnt the end and that he would assist me in whatever ways possible if commissioning is still my goal. He stated ROTC is still a possibility.

*Side note: I am trying to get my peas in a pod, and make sure that I am as mentally prepared as needed to handle the task of leading soldiers. I understand that I need to be ready to lead. ROTC was honestly one of my only morale boosters, maybe my biggest, it also happened to be one of the biggest hurdles when it came to relationships.

I reached out to one program at Georgia Military College, I was interested in the change of scenery from the city, and the early commissioning program. I need the structure that I have here at maritime/regimented corps life style to limit distractions, but I want the LT bars as soon as possible, a bachelors degree to me is just something that is in the way of that, ECP allows me to commission in 2 instead of 2 or 3 more years. I digress, I emailed their recruitment officer and he stated that I couldnt be enrolled because there are regulations regarding timelines and reenrollment in ROTC. I reviewed AR145-1 and it seemed like I could get a waiver, from what I read. My APMS also stated I could go to another program and still commission as long as I was honest, and they gave me a chance. Is there no way I can do ROTC ? Is there something I am missing in the regulations? I'm hoping my former APMS was right, I contacted him and asked the same and he said he would do some research in get back to me on what the process would look like, hasn't yet, but its only been a day or two. ECP is not the only thing im considering but it would be preferred.

Big difference between being "a few beers in" to blackout drunk. Just saying.

That being said:

* No arrest record, right? Just shut off at a bar?
* When in ROTC were you on scholarship? Was it cancelled? Do you owe money for that?
* You're still in good standing with the National Guard, right? Still at monthly drills and whatnot?
* Have you considered SMP throught the Guard? Great program. Or other National Guard officer programs (Minutman, GRFD, DEDNG, etc.)?
* Is OCS an option? Army recruiters are willing to overlook most anything as long as there was no law enforcement in the picture.
* How's the GPA? Anything above 3.0 is good. (2.5 for future Marine Corps officers as long as you in magnificent physical condition.)
* Have you figured out that social media, particularly while drinking, is an invitation to a career as a 7/11 clerk? Late shift?

Bottom line: Ease off the booze, hit the books, keep fit, put that blogging crap away for good. Grow up. You want to be an officer, then act like it. You still have a chance. Square yourself away and don't give up.