Ens. Cameron Kinley

Thanks for the quick response. That being the case, I assume as of today, he can never reach the position of CNO.
 
Army Al said:
Thanks for the quick response. That being the case, I assume as of today, he can never reach the position of CNO.
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Correct. You have to be URL, eligible for command at sea/operational command as a 4-star, as well as to be promoted to 4-star (women were capped at 3-star for a loooooong time). That’s why we didn’t have a female 4-star (ADM (Ret) Michelle Howard) until relatively recently. We had to “grow” them from the warfare communities through command at sea all the way through all levels of flag rank, once women could be assigned to combatant ships and aircraft starting in the 90’s. That’s a narrow aperture to thread anyway, rarefied 4-star air. Since submarines just got opened up in 2010, that’s gonna be another long haul for any female sub admirals. Sorry to digress.
 
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This has been covered, but...... We are talking tiny numbers here. Let's say for fun that there are 6 graduates per year that possibly have a shot at a professional sports career. As in being drafted, or having a PTO (professional try-out invite/ contract). 6 out of 1,000. If you fall into one of these 2 categories? I say barring a national security crisis that requires all hands on deck, give these guys/ gals 12 months. 12 months to either show up for their commitment, or cut a check to pay back their costs for USNA.
 
lipton_hot_tea said:
Why should this matter to the Navy?
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I don’t know if it does or doesn’t matter the the Navy, but my post was in response to my post prior, wondering if anyone OUTSDE USNA even cared about this. If it was ‘a thing’. I posted that question, and then BOOM 💥 saw that NFL union pop up on my newsfeed.
 
USNA 19 DAD said:
This has been covered, but...... We are talking tiny numbers here. Let's say for fun that there are 6 graduates per year that possibly have a shot at a professional sports career. As in being drafted, or having a PTO (professional try-out invite/ contract). 6 out of 1,000. If you fall into one of these 2 categories? I say barring a national security crisis that requires all hands on deck, give these guys/ gals 12 months. 12 months to either show up for their commitment, or cut a check to pay back their costs for USNA.
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I like that idea. Both doable and cost effective.
 
DSANN said:
This thread is interesting to read, I do enjoy reading the varying views, but definitely triggers my annoyance with the way athletes are treated in the first place - like godly beings. They get out of a lot of responsibilities and they automatically get four points just for being an athlete - all other midshipmen don't get those four points handed to them.
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I'm not familiar with the four points that are handed to varsity athletes at USNA. I had 8 varsity seasons at USNA and my son had 6. I wish I knew about the four points so I could claim them.

Yes, I "got out" of drill practice and parades BUT I practiced from about 3Pm until 6Pm or later every day while my non-athlete classmates would have low key intramurals on some days - and even when there was drill, they had at least an hour "off" do do what they wished. approx half of my weekends were impacted as well, while not all day, it certainly impacted liberty. Of course the PRT and specific PE tests still had to be done and practicing/working out for them had to be done early in the morning on my own time. I think I had early registration for maybe 2 semesters - there are limited numbers of slots available and coaches that I knew used them for the most "academically needy". Don't take this as a "poor me" because I'm glad that I had the opportunities that I did but I worked my butt off for them and don't know what you're referring to here,

Maybe Navy Hoops might know about those four points.
 
Small Team Bacsi said:
id suggest that the Navy made out like a bandit by Robinson going pro , the Navy should have almost demanded he go pro, millions in good will and really great advertisement , aimed at the very group of young people you want to reach, but very little return from his actual AD military time.
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I've long supported allowing truly exceptional athletes and representatives of the Service Academies defer their Service Obligation. David Robinson was both a truly exceptional athlete, and a Class Act, and I've oft said that he did more to serve his country as an role model than I did in my 7 years of active service.

That said, the key word is "truly exceptional", and that doesn't happen much -- IMO , Staubach and Robinson are really the only two that have brought much publicity and goodwill to the Navy. I know Staubach served in Vietnam, and if my recollection is correct, Robinson served some active time before turning pro, and I think that is a much more interesting story than someone that attended a Service Academy and then skipped out on their Service Obligation,
 
What also irritates me about this whole situation is where were the mature people telling him this was not a good idea? Someone behaving fatherly towards him trying to redirect him or at least telling him to wait on until he wasn't in an emotional state would have done a lot of good.
 
Two other data points:
Last week the Minnesota Twins called up pitcher Griffin Jax. He'd been drafted after his junior year at USAFA, served his two years of active duty, and then signed with the Twins' AAA team in St Paul this spring. Jax got knocked around a little in his first couple appearances and he's not likely to receive any Cy Young votes, but he served first and is playing now.

In a response to the various seasons lost due to Covid over the past year, the NCAA has granted an extra year of eligibility to all athletes. So at billet night this spring there were two All-American D3 runners at USCGA that were sent directly to grad school to allow them to continue competing at the Division 1 level for an additional year before reporting for their regular service commitments. https://news.yahoo.com/coast-guard-americans-mooney-davis-003200286.html

So a little wiggle room in start dates and a little flexibility in service options, but mostly meeting requirements as written.
 
Late to this party, but I agree some line would need to be established. Drafted vs undrafted free agent? Signed to practice squad or signed to active roster? The details matter. I like the above comments about "Exceptional" talent being worthy of exceptions - it all boils down to where the line is to be considered exceptional per policy definition. One would think that these individuals could be assigned to the existing and OFFICIAL military World Class Athlete Program. Doing so would provide the oversight and built-in recruiting/publicity engine needed to gain reciprocal benefit from their professional athlete status. Defining a level deemed "exceptional" to meet the program criteria would help, but not eliminate complaints and requests for policy exception from those who do not meet the codified definition. However, it would provide a much clearer path for those who do meet the definition.

A name to throw out there would be former Air Force linebacker Anthony Schlegel. He was a national level talent, all conference and team captain as a sophomore. Not a great cadet, but was going places on the football field. Understanding his NFL potential and just before incurring a service commitment, he left USAFA after his sophomore year and went to Ohio State. He was drafted in the 3rd round to the Jets.
 
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shiner said:
Late to this party, but I agree some line would need to be established. Drafted vs undrafted free agent? Signed to practice squad or signed to active roster? The details matter. I like the above comments about "Exceptional" talent being worthy of exceptions - it all boils down to where the line is to be considered exceptional per policy definition. One would think that these individuals could be assigned to the existing and OFFICIAL military World Class Athlete Program. Doing so would provide the oversight and built-in recruiting/publicity engine needed to gain reciprocal benefit from their professional athlete status. Defining a level deemed "exceptional" to meet the program criteria would help, but not eliminate complaints and requests for policy exception from those who do not meet the codified definition. However, it would provide a much clearer path for those who do meet the definition.

A name to throw out there would be former Air Force linebacker Anthony Schlegel. He was a national level talent, all conference and team captain as a sophomore. Not a great cadet, but was going places on the football field. Understanding his NFL potential and just before incurring a service commitment, he left USAFA after his sophomore year and went to Ohio State. He was drafted in the 3rd round to the Jets.
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I do not believe Navy has a WCAP program; Army does, I believe AF does. Navy does send athletes to Armed Firces games, Olympic Trials, Olympics, etc., but manages it as funded TAD. I’ve always thought we should have a formal program.
 
Capt MJ said:
I do not believe Navy has a WCAP program; Army does, I believe AF does. Navy does send athletes to Armed Firces games, Olympic Trials, Olympics, etc., but manages it as funded TAD. I’ve always thought we should have a formal program.
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I know of Navy folks who were sent off to train for months to get ready for big competitions over the years. A good friend and teammate made the US Olympic team when he was an Ens and he was not overly burdened while getting ready. A certain retired flag officer was World military sailing champion three times and he also had time to prepare.
Didn't seem to hurt his career either. . .
managed to be best man at my wedding which probably helped him at promotion time.
 
OldRetSWO said:
I'm not familiar with the four points that are handed to varsity athletes at USNA. I had 8 varsity seasons at USNA and my son had 6. I wish I knew about the four points so I could claim them.

Yes, I "got out" of drill practice and parades BUT I practiced from about 3Pm until 6Pm or later every day while my non-athlete classmates would have low key intramurals on some days - and even when there was drill, they had at least an hour "off" do do what they wished. approx half of my weekends were impacted as well, while not all day, it certainly impacted liberty. Of course the PRT and specific PE tests still had to be done and practicing/working out for them had to be done early in the morning on my own time. I think I had early registration for maybe 2 semesters - there are limited numbers of slots available and coaches that I knew used them for the most "academically needy". Don't take this as a "poor me" because I'm glad that I had the opportunities that I did but I worked my butt off for them and don't know what you're referring to here,

Maybe Navy Hoops might know about those four points.
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From what I am told I think the term is PROKNOW and athletes get four points handed to them just for being athletes. Regardless if they sit on the sidelines or play. The point being - they are held to a higher standard and given extras for being D1 athletes. FORGIVE ME-slightly different then what you experienced back in the 70s. (No disrespect intended) If the USNA allows this - then the athletes have an expectation. Which is why this kid had an agent and I suspect thought he could defer his time. I vote D3 - but that's my small vote. In the meantime I would advocate for a clear policy within the SAs so that this doesn't happen again.
 
Why give an exception when there might not even be a need for the Navy to have pro athletes? Where is the data that supports a requirement to have MIDN go pro, because there is a clear and distinguishable benefit? I think before we even talk about exceptions…we should be asking if the data is even there to support a need. There are so many other recruiting tools that are more effective.

Also, as others have said, why is it limited to just pro sports?

Edit: the 4 points is a athletic performance mark - see last two pages of PDF (https://www.usna.edu/Academics/_files/documents/OOM.pdf). The link is a little outdated, but enough to explain.
 
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